UK Politics Thread 18-inch Mark VI: Witty Title Forthcoming

[Frank Zipper]

Is tea a British thing, or an English thing?

Whole of the UK as far as I'm aware.

[Olerand]

most of you don't want to live with each other anymore.

Despite the nihilistic tendency against nationhood of many users here, these views aren't representative of Britons in general.

Oh I know that, certainly. But do most Britons.. Have an understanding of Britain? What is Britain, would you say, to most Britons? The queen? Tea? Buckingham palace? Queuing?

[Philjia]

most of you don't want to live with each other anymore.

Despite the nihilistic tendency against nationhood of many users here, these views aren't representative of Britons in general.

I think if you asked a random sample of Britons what made Britain Britain, you'd get as many answers as people you asked, and that's basically what sums us up.

[Frank Zipper]

Despite the nihilistic tendency against nationhood of many users here, these views aren't representative of Britons in general.

Oh I know that, certainly. But do most Britons.. Have an understanding of Britain? What is Britain, would you say, to most Britons? The queen? Tea? Buckingham palace? Queuing?

Curry, cricket, beer... there is as we say a certain je ne sais quoi to being British.

[Old Tyrannia]

Our entire history is more or less defined by lots of different peoples coming to live here. First, there were some minor tribes about which we know little. Then there were beaker people, who had alcohol and cups to match. Then there were a whole load of other tribes. Then there was the Roman Empire. Then there was the mass influx of Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and Jutes. Then there was the Norman conquest. Then there were those Flemish weavers. Then there were those Huguenot refugees. Then there were all those afro-carribean people. Then there were all those asian people. Then there were all those Poles.

Now, where in all that did the "British" arrive?

Yes, I am aware of your history. And we were Celts too. Franks afterwards. Mixed in with a lot of Jews, Italians, Portuguese, Poles, Armenians, Protestants, Arabs, and much more. But we know what is "France", what France stands for, why it still exists and hasn't been dissolved into... Anything else really.

What is Britain? Why do you still exist? Why aren't you France? Ireland? Germany? Pakistan? India? China? America?

We do have some things in common. For example, the vast, vast majority of us agree that our nation's validity is not dependent on justifying its existence to some French guy on the internet.

In fact, existing in defiance of stuck-up French people is a proud national tradition.

[Philjia]

Yes, I am aware of your history. And we were Celts too. Franks afterwards. Mixed in with a lot of Jews, Italians, Portuguese, Poles, Armenians, Protestants, Arabs, and much more. But we know what is "France", what France stands for, why it still exists and hasn't been dissolved into... Anything else really.

What is Britain? Why do you still exist? Why aren't you France? Ireland? Germany? Pakistan? India? China? America?

We do have some things in common. For example, the vast, vast majority of us agree that our nation's validity is not dependent on justifying its existence to some French guy on the internet.

In fact, existing in defiance of stuck-up French people is a proud national tradition.

The essence of Britishness probably includes recreational racism for comedy purposes, a general sense of stoicism, inappropriate reactions to the weather, and always being ready to have a chat over a pint or cup of tea.

[Hydesland]

Despite the nihilistic tendency against nationhood of many users here, these views aren't representative of Britons in general.

Oh I know that, certainly. But do most Britons.. Have an understanding of Britain? What is Britain, would you say, to most Britons? The queen? Tea? Buckingham palace? Queuing?

It's one of those things that's too difficult to define, but you know it when you see (or hear) it. That's my take.

[Calladan]

Why do we need to define it? Why do we need a united, cohesive country? I don't know most of the people in this country, and I suspect if I knew them I would not be able to stand them. I would find them distasteful, racist, bigoted, small-minded, petty little shits.

Or maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I would just find them boring and dull, but not actively dislike them.

Why do we need to be one country? For a start, we are four countries, and if the referendum showed anything it showed that we are NOT a "united" United Kingdom - anything but.

I don't get this obsession with defining "Britishness" - there isn't a a single set of traits that makes us "British", other than the fact we were all coincidentally born within the borders of this country, or we moved here and got a passport.

Why do we need a common thing to unite us?

To exist. Why does a nation exist if there is no sense of belonging to it by its members? Why do you still exist? Dissolve yourself. Break up. Or let someone annex you. What do you share in common? Why are you still together?

More pragmatically, the willingness to pay taxes for other people's benefit, to share your wealth so that those less fortunate than you survive, to make a sacrifice for your country when you need to (during times of austerity, or war, or anything really). In short, to continue to live and contribute in a society, you need to feel... Some sort of belonging to it. Otherwise. You're... Like America. Where people don't want to pay for others, where selfishness has resulted... in what we see today.

If you like the welfare State, then you need to create a sense of belonging, so that the people who don't need it are still willing to contribute to it for the sake of the people who do. A lack of societal cohesion, solidarity, affiliation, is the death-knell of the welfare State. And the rise of American-style neoliberalism and cultural scorched earth infighting.

I am not certain I agree.

Despite everything I have said, you can look through all my posts (both on this forum and the General Assembly forum) and you will find I am a firm believer in the welfare state, the NHS and that taxes are not a burden, but the price we have to pay for ensuring our country has a future.

And even if the taxes are going to pay for the healthcare of people In find utterly contemptible, that doesn't mean I am going to baulk at paying them. And it doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't get healthcare, or welfare, or benefits. Because...... well that would just be wrong.

And I have to admit, I've never really thought about why. I just know that it's what I do, and it's the way I feel, because it's the way I was raised. And it's not because I feel I belong to my country, or any special pride in it, but just because it's what a person does.

[Galloism]

No torture, except for dealing with terrorists, but keep it light.

What's light torture?
A mildly itchy mattress? Release a fly into the room to buzz around their ear? Playing Never Gonna Give You Up on repeat all day in their cell?

You monster.

[Imperializt Russia]

"Why does Britain exist"

Because old men have spent centuries sat in conference decreeing it is so. Same as France.

[Imperializt Russia]

Why do we need to define it? Why do we need a united, cohesive country? I don't know most of the people in this country, and I suspect if I knew them I would not be able to stand them. I would find them distasteful, racist, bigoted, small-minded, petty little shits.

Or maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I would just find them boring and dull, but not actively dislike them.

Why do we need to be one country? For a start, we are four countries, and if the referendum showed anything it showed that we are NOT a "united" United Kingdom - anything but.

I don't get this obsession with defining "Britishness" - there isn't a a single set of traits that makes us "British", other than the fact we were all coincidentally born within the borders of this country, or we moved here and got a passport.

Why do we need a common thing to unite us?

To exist. Why does a nation exist if there is no sense of belonging to it by its members? Why do you still exist? Dissolve yourself. Break up. Or let someone annex you. What do you share in common? Why are you still together?

More pragmatically, the willingness to pay taxes for other people's benefit, to share your wealth so that those less fortunate than you survive, to make a sacrifice for your country when you need to (during times of austerity, or war, or anything really). In short, to continue to live and contribute in a society, you need to feel... Some sort of belonging to it. Otherwise. You're... Like America. Where people don't want to pay for others, where selfishness has resulted... in what we see today.

If you like the welfare State, then you need to create a sense of belonging, so that the people who don't need it are still willing to contribute to it for the sake of the people who do. A lack of societal cohesion, solidarity, affiliation, is the death-knell of the welfare State. And the rise of American-style neoliberalism and cultural scorched earth infighting.

1979 called, they want their momentous political shift back.

(Because that may not be clear, the election of Thatcher in 1979 basically locked Britain into exactly that, and we've since been fucked by it)

[Salandriagado]

Real reason we need to ban the Burqa apparently

Also look at the image under it.

UKIP have some very interesting policies these days.

Taupe? Who wants a fucking taupe star?

[Souseiseki]

"Why does Britain exist"

Because old men have spent centuries sat in conference decreeing it is so. Same as France.

fact: all frenchmen are born with an innate love la république

[Imperializt Russia]

"Why does Britain exist"

Because old men have spent centuries sat in conference decreeing it is so. Same as France.

fact: all frenchmen are born with an innate love la république

You've seen Aelex posting, right?

[Olerand]

Yes, I am aware of your history. And we were Celts too. Franks afterwards. Mixed in with a lot of Jews, Italians, Portuguese, Poles, Armenians, Protestants, Arabs, and much more. But we know what is "France", what France stands for, why it still exists and hasn't been dissolved into... Anything else really.

What is Britain? Why do you still exist? Why aren't you France? Ireland? Germany? Pakistan? India? China? America?

We do have some things in common. For example, the vast, vast majority of us agree that our nation's validity is not dependent on justifying its existence to some French guy on the internet.

In fact, existing in defiance of stuck-up French people is a proud national tradition.

I didn't say you had to define yourself to me. My original post said you had to define yourself to you. At some, point, you have to determine who you are vis-à-vis yourself.
Frankly, I don't care that you can't do that, and in fact my nation has benefited from you not doing that (Brexit was a majestic and joyfully unexpected correction of a tragic and historic French mistake; Britain selling off its national assets has been good for State-owned companies, like EDF, SNCF, RATP; as well as private companies, like that one that used to call disabled people and force them back to work). I don't mind. But, you do.

We do have some things in common. For example, the vast, vast majority of us agree that our nation's validity is not dependent on justifying its existence to some French guy on the internet.

In fact, existing in defiance of stuck-up French people is a proud national tradition.

The essence of Britishness probably includes recreational racism for comedy purposes, a general sense of stoicism, inappropriate reactions to the weather, and always being ready to have a chat over a pint or cup of tea.

But everything other than "stoicism" doesn't make a nation. Those aren't values, beliefs, things you can claim to cherish.

To exist. Why does a nation exist if there is no sense of belonging to it by its members? Why do you still exist? Dissolve yourself. Break up. Or let someone annex you. What do you share in common? Why are you still together?

More pragmatically, the willingness to pay taxes for other people's benefit, to share your wealth so that those less fortunate than you survive, to make a sacrifice for your country when you need to (during times of austerity, or war, or anything really). In short, to continue to live and contribute in a society, you need to feel... Some sort of belonging to it. Otherwise. You're... Like America. Where people don't want to pay for others, where selfishness has resulted... in what we see today.

If you like the welfare State, then you need to create a sense of belonging, so that the people who don't need it are still willing to contribute to it for the sake of the people who do. A lack of societal cohesion, solidarity, affiliation, is the death-knell of the welfare State. And the rise of American-style neoliberalism and cultural scorched earth infighting.

I am not certain I agree.

Despite everything I have said, you can look through all my posts (both on this forum and the General Assembly forum) and you will find I am a firm believer in the welfare state, the NHS and that taxes are not a burden, but the price we have to pay for ensuring our country has a future.

And even if the taxes are going to pay for the healthcare of people In find utterly contemptible, that doesn't mean I am going to baulk at paying them. And it doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't get healthcare, or welfare, or benefits. Because...... well that would just be wrong.

And I have to admit, I've never really thought about why. I just know that it's what I do, and it's the way I feel, because it's the way I was raised. And it's not because I feel I belong to my country, or any special pride in it, but just because it's what a person does.

I'm not talking about you individually, I am talking about the nation. Your moral compass and left-wing attitudes are... Not synonymous with Britain's, as evidenced by the coming Tory landslide. Why do people contribute to national solidarity if "those people" (anyone really, the undeserving, the moochers, the Other) are to receive the benefits? Britain's behavior since Thatcher, and currently, suggests that that feeling of "I got mine, get yours" is quite popular.

"Why does Britain exist"

Because old men have spent centuries sat in conference decreeing it is so. Same as France.

The French State existed before, and in many ways, it itself created the French nation. You can look back to medieval monarchs and see how they worked to grow the kingdom and the royal domain. You can see this deliberate plan especially during the Renaissance and the Great Century (the 17th). You can see it under the Third Republic, and the Empires. You can see it in the Revolution. You can see it in the Fourth Republic, and the Fifth. You can see it in our Constitution, in the Preamble of 1948, in the Panthéon, in the Académie. France was founded by old and young men (and a few women, such as Catherine de Médicis, or Anne d'Autriche), but it was planned. Today, our politicians speak of who we are, our values, our beliefs, our solidarity. Who are you?

To exist. Why does a nation exist if there is no sense of belonging to it by its members? Why do you still exist? Dissolve yourself. Break up. Or let someone annex you. What do you share in common? Why are you still together?

More pragmatically, the willingness to pay taxes for other people's benefit, to share your wealth so that those less fortunate than you survive, to make a sacrifice for your country when you need to (during times of austerity, or war, or anything really). In short, to continue to live and contribute in a society, you need to feel... Some sort of belonging to it. Otherwise. You're... Like America. Where people don't want to pay for others, where selfishness has resulted... in what we see today.

If you like the welfare State, then you need to create a sense of belonging, so that the people who don't need it are still willing to contribute to it for the sake of the people who do. A lack of societal cohesion, solidarity, affiliation, is the death-knell of the welfare State. And the rise of American-style neoliberalism and cultural scorched earth infighting.

1979 called, they want their momentous political shift back.

(Because that may not be clear, the election of Thatcher in 1979 basically locked Britain into exactly that, and we've since been fucked by it)

This isn't a one-moment phenomenon. Neoliberalism is a long process, and America is far ahead of you on that path. When you genuinely feel such a lack of solidarity and belonging, and thus begin to feel genuine resentment and distrust, and finally end up privatizing the NHS and the last remnants of the welfare State (and become like America with healthcare and welfare), then I would say you've progressed on this path. The ultimate outcome, I believe, is a bi-modal nation of minority Silicon Valleys and Wall-streets adjoining majority depressed communities and towns. You're not there yet, and not even America is.

[Imperializt Russia]

Neoliberalism is a long path, and we've been walking it for forty years. America more or less had a headstart by simply not having the wealth of state institutions that Britain did, such as not establishing a health service after WWII.

But, the aggressive growth of neoliberalism in America cam at about the same time. Reagan and Thatcher worked very much in parallel if not together in their aims of pushing a free-market, small-state individualist notion onto the US and UK.

And, forty years down the line, it's pretty cemented here in the UK.

[Olerand]

fact: all frenchmen are born with an innate love la république

You've seen Aelex posting, right?

My love for the Republic is different than his, I vote PS, he votes FN. But we both recognize what are the fundamentals of France and the Republic. We disagree on much, but the French Republic is the core value of all modern French politics. There is a reason why when a political party is trying to occupy the middle ground (or arguably, higher ground), they add République to their name. Like the UMP becoming Les Républicains, or En Marche becoming La République en marche. Or why la République, much like l'État, or Nation when referring to the nation, are always capitalized in French, per l'Académie's rules.

[Imperializt Russia]

France was founded by old and young men (and a few women, such as Catherine de Médicis, or Anne d'Autriche), but it was planned. Today, our politicians speak of who we are, our values, our beliefs, our solidarity. Who are you?

Politicians speak of "who we are", our values, and the like because it plays well to the patriotic sect of voters, and doesn't play badly with anyone else.

I'm a sheer cynic on the machinations of the political class, but I can't see your professing of this "French values!" as anything but gushy, misty-eyedness.

There's nothing wrong with you holding that belief, there's nothing wrong with patriotism.
I just think you're making it out to be a far more noble endeavour than it actually is.

[Imperializt Russia]

You've seen Aelex posting, right?

My love for the Republic is different than his, I vote PS, he votes FN. But we both recognize what are the fundamentals of France and the Republic. We disagree on much, but the French Republic is the core value of all modern French politics. There is a reason why when a political party is trying to occupy the middle ground (or arguably, higher ground), they add République to their name. Like the UMP becoming Les Républicains, or En Marche becoming La République en marche. Or why la République, much like l'État, or Nation when referring to the nation, are always capitalized in French, per l'Académie's rules.

Still can't get over the fact you have a government institution telling people what is and is not acceptable French that no-one actually listens to.

[Olerand]

France was founded by old and young men (and a few women, such as Catherine de Médicis, or Anne d'Autriche), but it was planned. Today, our politicians speak of who we are, our values, our beliefs, our solidarity. Who are you?

Politicians speak of "who we are", our values, and the like because it plays well to the patriotic sect of voters, and doesn't play badly with anyone else.

I'm a sheer cynic on the machinations of the political class, but I can't see your professing of this "French values!" as anything but gushy, misty-eyedness.

There's nothing wrong with you holding that belief, there's nothing wrong with patriotism.
I just think you're making it out to be a far more noble endeavour than it actually is.

But what are they? We know what ours are, even if Marine and Macron refer to them in differing situations. Of course, these values are political ploys, oftentimes, but people in France (and to a certain extent in Germany (see the recent civil service niqba ban), the Netherlands, Italy, etc.) know what we are, who we are, what we stand for. We know what is French, and what isn't. I'm not misty-eyed about anything, I am extremely cynical, but I believe in the fundamental core of national cohesion.

And I didn't say patriotism, which isn't the same as just being able to say who you are, is a good thing at all. It can be awful is used for the bad intent. But I'm not talking about patriotism at all. I'm simply saying that you lack a national identity, period. In other words, to many (most?) Britons, you have nothing to be patriotic to.

Neoliberalism is a long path, and we've been walking it for forty years. America more or less had a headstart by simply not having the wealth of state institutions that Britain did, such as not establishing a health service after WWII.

But, the aggressive growth of neoliberalism in America cam at about the same time. Reagan and Thatcher worked very much in parallel if not together in their aims of pushing a free-market, small-state individualist notion onto the US and UK.

And, forty years down the line, it's pretty cemented here in the UK.

Certainly. But that doesn't mean that it has run its course. There is still much to come.

My love for the Republic is different than his, I vote PS, he votes FN. But we both recognize what are the fundamentals of France and the Republic. We disagree on much, but the French Republic is the core value of all modern French politics. There is a reason why when a political party is trying to occupy the middle ground (or arguably, higher ground), they add République to their name. Like the UMP becoming Les Républicains, or En Marche becoming La République en marche. Or why la République, much like l'État, or Nation when referring to the nation, are always capitalized in French, per l'Académie's rules.

Still can't get over the fact you have a government institution telling people what is and is not acceptable French that no-one actually listens to.

French textbooks in schools follow the Académie's rules, the French language, when spoken in official situations (by politicians, government documents, etc.) does too. There is contention (like the recent orthography reforms, or the feminization of titles), but the Académie is the final recourse on matters of language, for dictionaries, textbooks, and people.

[Old Tyrannia]

Well, chaps, a foreigner thinks we have no national identity. Clearly it's time to give up and dissolve our country.

[Olerand]

Well, chaps, a foreigner thinks we have no national identity. Clearly it's time to give up and dissolve our country.

I haven't said, definitively, that you don't have one. Many Britons have said that though. What I have asked, repeatedly, is what is it?

So. What is it?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Well, chaps, a foreigner thinks we have no national identity. Clearly it's time to give up and dissolve our country.

I haven't said, definitively, that you don't have one. Many Britons have said that though. What I have asked, repeatedly, is what is it?

So. What is it?

Flags, tea, top hats, spiffing moustaches and conquering people who lack flags.

Also ale.

[Calladan]

I am not certain I agree.

Despite everything I have said, you can look through all my posts (both on this forum and the General Assembly forum) and you will find I am a firm believer in the welfare state, the NHS and that taxes are not a burden, but the price we have to pay for ensuring our country has a future.

And even if the taxes are going to pay for the healthcare of people In find utterly contemptible, that doesn't mean I am going to baulk at paying them. And it doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't get healthcare, or welfare, or benefits. Because...... well that would just be wrong.

And I have to admit, I've never really thought about why. I just know that it's what I do, and it's the way I feel, because it's the way I was raised. And it's not because I feel I belong to my country, or any special pride in it, but just because it's what a person does.

I'm not talking about you individually, I am talking about the nation. Your moral compass and left-wing attitudes are... Not synonymous with Britain's, as evidenced by the coming Tory landslide. Why do people contribute to national solidarity if "those people" (anyone really, the undeserving, the moochers, the Other) are to receive the benefits? Britain's behavior since Thatcher, and currently, suggests that that feeling of "I got mine, get yours" is quite popular.

Ah. Sorry.

But, to be honest, I can really not bring myself to speak for an entire nation, and would never attempt to try. And I am well aware that the country is currently turning into the seventh circle of hell But I have always followed my own trumpet, and just because the national narrative seems to be "fuck the poor and fuck the brown ones" doesn't mean I am EVER going to say that

[Souseiseki]

Well, chaps, a foreigner thinks we have no national identity. Clearly it's time to give up and dissolve our country.

I haven't said, definitively, that you don't have one. Many Britons have said that though. What I have asked, repeatedly, is what is it?

So. What is it?

what is a national identity in the first place?

if we all say "we're british", does that not qualify?

e: i am aware of the irony