French presidential primaries

[Minoa]

Le Pen for France! Oorah!

(Image)

But may I enquire why, specifically?

I feel that Wilders and Le Pen do not understand how much trouble they are asking for if they continue with this kind of 'incitement to racial hatred', because I am an ethnic minority.

[Crzeikstan]

Le Pen for France! Oorah!

(Image)

Hmm...a propaganda piece supporting Le Pen written in English.

Lol.

So basically anything that disagrees with your opinion is "propaganda"? With this kind of thinking, anything that supports a candidate is propaganda.

[Crzeikstan]

Le Pen for France! Oorah!

(Image)

But may I enquire why, specifically?

I feel that Wilders and Le Pen do not understand how much trouble they are asking for if they continue with this kind of 'incitement to racial hatred', because I am an ethnic minority.

They just want to keep citizens safe from radical islam. Not muslims in general. If you feel that they are "inciting racial hatred", they are not.

[Minoa]

But may I enquire why, specifically?

I feel that Wilders and Le Pen do not understand how much trouble they are asking for if they continue with this kind of 'incitement to racial hatred', because I am an ethnic minority.

They just want to keep citizens safe from radical islam. Not muslims in general. If you feel that they are "inciting racial hatred", they are not.

See also: viewtopic.php?p=31211280#p31211280

Given FN’s background, it can easily escalate to something worse, based on historical facts. I am likely to leave the UK forever and when I do, I want a country that will care for me better than the UK.

(If anyone think I should stay, they may need to read this).

[Kilobugya]

They just want to keep citizens safe from radical islam. Not muslims in general. If you feel that they are "inciting racial hatred", they are not.

No they don't. They don't care about keeping the citizens safe, or they would keep the citizens safe from dozens if not hundred of things more dangerous than radical islam, from car accidents to air pollution to workplace accidents to domestic violence to right-wing extremists to ...

What they do is use the age-old scapegoat strategy, find a group of people and blame for everything wrong, even if they are not responsible. It was the jews in the 30s, it's the muslims now.

And by doing so, they are actually _helping_ radical Islam, the more moderate Muslims are oppressed, discriminated, feeling rejected, the more a tiny portion of the Muslims will be attracted by radical Islam. FN (and similar parties) and radical Islam are feeding each other in an infernal loop of hatred.

[The Conez Imperium]

Hmm...a propaganda piece supporting Le Pen written in English.

Lol.

So basically anything that disagrees with your opinion is "propaganda"? With this kind of thinking, anything that supports a candidate is propaganda.

Propaganda is basically information presented to forward a political perspective. It is not a negative connotation. One must treat propaganda for what it is. I mean what else would you call it? A cartoon expressing a political viewpoint in only 1 perspective?

In regards to your second statement, pretty much. If the information is not trying to be neutral then its probably propaganda. Like this website.

[Kilobugya]

10:45 News of judiciary front : it seems that Peneloppe Fillon was taken in "garde à vue" (arrested by the police for questioning, the police can arrest people for up to 24 hours for questioning if they evidence they are involved in a crime), and the Fillon's house was raided by the police.

11:07 (edit) Seems that was a wrong info. But Fillon himself was summoned by the judge, very likely to be "mis en examen" (indicted, the first step towards a later trial). He announced once that if he was "mis en examen" he would resign, but later on that he wouldn't. He is doing a press conference at noon, speculation are wild if he'll resign or not.

12:49 (second edit) So, yes, Fillon will be indicted, but (unlike he promised before, and unlike what he said about other politicians indicted in the past), he won't resign. What a shame for him, and a collective suicide for LR.

[Baltenstein]

Looks like "rien ne va plus" for Fillon. I doubt the French are going to elect a president who is currently entangled in a criminal prosecution.

[Minoa]

Looks like "rien ne va plus" for Fillon. I doubt the French are going to elect a president who is currently entangled in a criminal prosecution.

Macron it is then. Based on the latest polls, I think it is crucial to see Macron lead both rounds to give those fighting against racial hatred a much-needed morale boost.

[Kilobugya]

Looks like "rien ne va plus" for Fillon. I doubt the French are going to elect a president who is currently entangled in a criminal prosecution.

Yes, it seems very unlikely Fillon will win now, his only hope is that Macron does something very stupid near the end of the race, and that he manages to painful go to the second round, and then have the "better the thief than the fascist" vote like in Le Pen-Chirac in 2002, but even that isn't sure...

And it's some kind of political suicide from LR to still support Fillon at this point.

[Minoa]

Source: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2 ... ring-again

"We need a new software for the 21st century" got me, because in the Windows universe I am stuck with Windows 7 for many reasons. No issues with upgrading macOS or Ubuntu, but I agree that the left-right divide is out of control and so old in my opinion.

[Kilobugya]

I agree that the left-right divide is out of control and so old in my opinion.

That's a just a myth spread by people who have a right-wing program but don't want to say it (like Macron). The inequality of income, power and living conditions between a tiny elite (the "1%") and the vast majority of the population (the "99%") is still as present as ever, actually growing fast, to a level unreached since WW2. And that's the core, main issue that breaks our societies from within, and that leads to lowering of living conditions for the majority since ~30 years.

Wherever you want to actually fix that, by fighting against the "1%", reducing their power and redistributing their wealth, or if you side with the "1%" and grant them tax cuts while cutting protections of the "99%" is the main political divide of our time, whatever the media pretend. And that's the left-right divide. That some people (like Hollande) were elected on a left-wing platform to then do right-wing policies do blur the lines, but the solution is definitely not to pretend the divide doesn't exist, but to elect people who have a left-wing platform and will respect it, by changing the political system (ie, 6th Republic) if needed to constrain them to do so.

[Minoa]

I agree that the left-right divide is out of control and so old in my opinion.

That's a just a myth spread by people who have a right-wing program but don't want to say it (like Macron). The inequality of income, power and living conditions between a tiny elite (the "1%") and the vast majority of the population (the "99%") is still as present as ever, actually growing fast, to a level unreached since WW2. And that's the core, main issue that breaks our societies from within, and that leads to lowering of living conditions for the majority since ~30 years.

Wherever you want to actually fix that, by fighting against the "1%", reducing their power and redistributing their wealth, or if you side with the "1%" and grant them tax cuts while cutting protections of the "99%" is the main political divide of our time, whatever the media pretend. And that's the left-right divide. That some people (like Hollande) were elected on a left-wing platform to then do right-wing policies do blur the lines, but the solution is definitely not to pretend the divide doesn't exist, but to elect people who have a left-wing platform and will respect it, by changing the political system (ie, 6th Republic) if needed to constrain them to do so.

I also view the left with care, given all the shortages and repression that Venezuela is going through under Maduro.

EDIT: added source.

[Kilobugya]

I also view the left with care, given all the shortages and repression that Venezuela is going through under Maduro.

The situation in Venezuela is very complex, and only partially the fault of Maduro - but even if it were, one "bad" left-wing leader doesn't mean the left in general is bad. Even in Venezuela, despite all the current problems, a large majority of Venezuelan still rank Chávez as the most efficient, democratic and best president Venezuela ever had. As for "repression", whatever Maduro is doing now is nothing compared to what the right-wing did before (remember, the Caracazo was between 300 and 3000 people shot by the army, not even the strongest anti-Maduro claim anything comparable to that), which doesn't excuse, but shows that in the local context of Venezuela, the worst of the left (Maduro, who isn't as skilled as Chávez) is still better than the typical right.

But anyway, it's not like Maduro is candidate in French elections so...

[Major-Tom]

I also view the left with care, given all the shortages and repression that Venezuela is going through under Maduro.

The situation in Venezuela is very complex, and only partially the fault of Maduro - but even if it were, one "bad" left-wing leader doesn't mean the left in general is bad. Even in Venezuela, despite all the current problems, a large majority of Venezuelan still rank Chávez as the most efficient, democratic and best president Venezuela ever had. As for "repression", whatever Maduro is doing now is nothing compared to what the right-wing did before (remember, the Caracazo was between 300 and 3000 people shot by the army, not even the strongest anti-Maduro claim anything comparable to that), which doesn't excuse, but shows that in the local context of Venezuela, the worst of the left (Maduro, who isn't as skilled as Chávez) is still better than the typical right.

But anyway, it's not like Maduro is candidate in French elections so...

You're right, half the responsibility lies on Maduro, the other half on Chavez. Chavez was a populistic, authoritarian strongman who's economic reforms alleviated poverty initially, but ended up causing skyrocketing inflation and a lack of economic growth because of stringent anti business policies that bankrupted half of middle class Venezuela.

At least Chavez was sane, Maduro acts like someone who suffered a failed lobotomy.

[Kilobugya]

You're right, half the responsibility lies on Maduro, the other half on Chavez.

Wrong. The responsibility is split between the world-wide crisis and low oil prices, the dependence of Venezuela to oil which is both the legacy of Chávez and all the right-wing presidents before him, the record drought that Venezuela suffered, the opposition sabotage campaign, and Maduro's lack of skill.

Chavez was a populistic, authoritarian strongman who's economic reforms alleviated poverty initially, but ended up causing skyrocketing inflation and a lack of economic growth because of stringent anti business policies that bankrupted half of middle class Venezuela.

That's just "alternative truth" level. Chávez was much less authoritarian than any previous president of Venezuela, the inflation under Chávez (including his final years) was much _lower_ than the average of the inflation in the 10 or 20 years before Chávez, and the middle class of Venezuela actually _grew_ a lot during the Chávez mandate.

And as I said, even now that things are going bad due to a combination of harsh context (record drought, low oil prices, world-wide crisis) combined to Maduro's lack of skill combined to opposition sabotage and violence, 51% of Venezuelan still think Chávez was the most democratic president (second best is at 18%), 57% the most efficient (second best at 15%), 79% the most popular, ... more on https://fr.scribd.com/document/34019305 ... from_embed

[Theodorex]

That's a just a myth spread by people who have a right-wing program but don't want to say it (like Macron). The inequality of income, power and living conditions between a tiny elite (the "1%") and the vast majority of the population (the "99%") is still as present as ever, actually growing fast, to a level unreached since WW2. And that's the core, main issue that breaks our societies from within, and that leads to lowering of living conditions for the majority since ~30 years.

Wherever you want to actually fix that, by fighting against the "1%", reducing their power and redistributing their wealth, or if you side with the "1%" and grant them tax cuts while cutting protections of the "99%" is the main political divide of our time, whatever the media pretend. And that's the left-right divide.

The left is almost entirely globalists, they are for free movement of people and capital. As far as this taxing 1% goes, first of all that is not the only issue and not even most important and once It really comes to that then left sides with the "job creators".

Even in this thread the left leaning people are for free movement of labor and capital. Before Brexit the left sounded just like the frinancial elite in London, brexiteers were racists and all that, rhetoric was very similar.

Why does the UK Import Labour? https://medium.com/modern-money-matters ... .i9l5j88ek

It's Hard to Get Good Help: Danish Edition http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/it-s-hard-to-get-good-help-danish-edition

They all explain that they can't find workers with the skills they need and that this is causing them to lose business, thereby curtailing growth. It even tells us why raising wages won't work, recounting the experience of Peter Enevoldsen, a manager at a company that make precision tractor parts:

"He offered a salary bump of more than 2 percent, but raising wages further would crimp his margins."
Actually, this is the way an economy is supposed to work. If Mr. Enevoldsen can't pay the market wage and still get business, then he should not get that business. Firms that can pay the market wage and still make a profit obviously can use the labor more productively.

I am not saying the right wingers have a solution but at least they break up this neoliberal project called EU, It is designed for the elite by the elite. working class gets f---d. If you want to continue with this bullshit then I don't care what the politician's name is, he or she cannot do what you want. You can use all the progressive horseshit rhetoric, end result will be the same.

Do you really think Hollande is an idiot? No, he is a globalist and pro EU and you cannot do anything in that framework. Let me tell you what the problem is, there is no EU public purpose. All the members want to benefit from It and it doesn't work this way. EU needs to be dismantled, no left winger in position of gaining political power supports this. You vote for the left, you get more Hollandes and Tsiprases. There is nothing progressive about poor Polish going to work in UK and living ten people in one flat. All the leftist snobs are for It. They are not the working class they talk about, they don't know anything about the working class other than what they have read in Marxists books.

[The Conez Imperium]

I am not saying the right wingers have a solution but at least they break up this neoliberal project called EU, It is designed for the elite by the elite. working class gets f---d. If you want to continue with this bullshit then I don't care what the politician's name is, he or she cannot do what you want. You can use all the progressive horseshit rhetoric, end result will be the same.

Do you really think Hollande is an idiot? No, he is a globalist and pro EU and you cannot do anything in that framework. Let me tell you what the problem is, there is no EU public purpose. All the members want to benefit from It and it doesn't work this way. EU needs to be dismantled, no left winger in position of gaining political power supports this. You vote for the left, you get more Hollandes and Tsiprases. There is nothing progressive about poor Polish going to work in UK and living ten people in one flat. All the leftist snobs are for It. They are not the working class they talk about, they don't know anything about the working class other than what they have read in Marxists books.

If Polish workers are able to find better jobs in the UK thanks to the Schengen agreement isn't that a benefit for the working class by your logic?

Or is this a case where global revolution is needed because they lack the means of production?

[NeoLiberia]

Why does the UK Import Labour? https://medium.com/modern-money-matters ... .i9l5j88ek

So the elite class in both countries get what they want.

The poor country gets rid of their peasants that are competing for what little resources there are and who may send some foreign currency back which the elites can appropriate through taxes, financial discounting or even occasionally producing goods for people.

Looks like nonsense. The Eastern European elites always seem to be displeased with mass migration as far as I can see. It might not be progressive, but things are much worse in countries that haven't joined the EU, brain drains without any benefits.

Anyway Hollande definitely tried.

Just look: "Hollande's team will shift economic policy away from liberalisation towards state investment in key
sectors to engineer job growth."

The globalist elite never lie to each other and Wikileaks is always true.

[Othelos]

I'm hoping that the least crazy person will be elected.

[Theodorex]

Looks like nonsense. The Eastern European elites always seem to be displeased with mass migration as far as I can see. It might not be progressive, but things are much worse in countries that haven't joined the EU, brain drains without any benefits.

Really, even Iceland? How racist the Iceland was to abandon their plans to join the euro or EU? Now their brains are draining without having the benefit of neoliberal EU. How stupid of those communists of Iceland.

If Polish workers are able to find better jobs in the UK thanks to the Schengen agreement isn't that a benefit for the working class by your logic?

Now you are for the Polish working class agvancement? Of course you give no shit for the UK working class, that is why you support uncontrolled mass immigration.


I think democracy works best in this case. Let the people decide.

[url]http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39133400?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

The House of Lords should be abolished or replaced with a democratically elected assembly.
[/url]

[Chessmistress]

I foresee a miracle by Hamon.
If he'll manage to get the second place, at the first round, then it's done.

[The Conez Imperium]

If Polish workers are able to find better jobs in the UK thanks to the Schengen agreement isn't that a benefit for the working class by your logic?

Now you are for the Polish working class agvancement? Of course you give no shit for the UK working class, that is why you support uncontrolled mass immigration.

I think democracy works best in this case. Let the people decide. The House of Lords should be abolished or replaced with a democratically elected assembly.

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't support uncontrolled mass immigration.

Ultimately, I was trying to understand your position but we're getting lost from the French topic at hand.

[Arlenton]

Looks like Fillon is slipping, and I doubt Le Pen can beat Macron. Hope I'm wrong.

[Chessmistress]

Looks like Fillon is slipping, and I doubt Le Pen can beat Macron. Hope I'm wrong.

I have still to decide about what would be the major disaster between Le Pen and Macron.
Le Pen is worse on the paper but she would face more opposition, while Macron would basically rule without a real opposition and by so having full power to make things being quite similar to how actually are...just only worse in almost every imaginable field...