French presidential primaries

[Kilobugya]

Interesting that PdG is polling considerably higher than PS at the moment. Maybe that'll be one saving grace from this shitshow.

I was a very motivated supporter of Mélenchon in 2012, I'm not so happy with him now, in 2012 he was backed by a large coalition of left-wing forces, with a program that was made collectively, this year he's going alone with a "I don't need anyone" mentality, with a few regression in his program and some unclear positions (like on Europe), but due to the dire situation, the failure that was Hollande, the even disaster that would be Fillon/Juppé, and the complete apocalypse that would be Le Pen... we'll have to rally to him, even if a bit unhappily.

And it's indeed very likely he'll score above the PS, the PS is completely discredited by how Hollande betrayed about everything he promised and every thing the left stands for (the only "leftist" thing he really did was the gay marriage law, that's positive sure, but quite thin compared to all the betrayals).

[Kilobugya]

Judging from Wikipedia, polls show Juppé winning against Le Pen at greater margins than Fillon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017

Yeah, it'll be somewhat easier for left-leaning people to vote somewhat-centerish Juppé than to vote for Tatcherian Fillon. In a Fillon-Le Pen fight, most of the left will stay home.

[Kilobugya]

Yes but will either of the candidates fix the moribund French economy?

Neither Fillon, nor Juppé nor Le Pen would do that. They would break our economy even more. The problems of our economy are lack of investment, growing inequalities, fundamental services (healthcare, education, transports, science, justice, housing, ...) slowly eroding after decades of cutting fundings, massive tax cuts to the rich and corporations that don't lead to anything but speculation and higher income for the rich. What we need is a strong wealth redistribution and Keynesian policy, with massive state investment in infrastructures and fundamental services. And none of Fillon, Juppé or Le Pen would do any of that - they'll continue the failed policies of Chirac/Raffarin, Sarkozy/Fillon, Hollande/Valls of the last 15 years.

[Dameth]

Interesting that PdG is polling considerably higher than PS at the moment. Maybe that'll be one saving grace from this shitshow.

I was a very motivated supporter of Mélenchon in 2012, I'm not so happy with him now, in 2012 he was backed by a large coalition of left-wing forces, with a program that was made collectively, this year he's going alone with a "I don't need anyone" mentality, with a few regression in his program and some unclear positions (like on Europe), but due to the dire situation, the failure that was Hollande, the even disaster that would be Fillon/Juppé, and the complete apocalypse that would be Le Pen... we'll have to rally to him, even if a bit unhappily.

And it's indeed very likely he'll score above the PS, the PS is completely discredited by how Hollande betrayed about everything he promised and every thing the left stands for (the only "leftist" thing he really did was the gay marriage law, that's positive sure, but quite thin compared to all the betrayals).

Out of curiosity, what formation are you from? Sud? FdG? Communist? I have a soft spot for Sud's candidate, Poutou, based on his apparent honesty alone, but now let's be real, this is not happening in a thousand years.
Mélanchon is okay. Im a bit worried about his stance on europe, but I had one of his partisan explain to me that is part of his "rapport de force" tactic he tried within the PS government - basically he wants to sell his political weight against the reforms he wants. It's less worrying than a stance I was suspecting, ala "I want to leave EU", but that's a tactic he already tried within the PS government with the effects we know today... So I wouldn't bet mypocket money on him.

Else I have a very similar understanding as you do on the situation

[Kilobugya]

Out of curiosity, what formation are you from? Sud? FdG? Communist?

PCF

I have a soft spot for Sud's candidate, Poutou, based on his apparent honesty alone, but now let's be real, this is not happening in a thousand years.

You're confusing Sud which is a labor union and NPA which is a political party. Poutou is the candidate from NPA. It's true that there is an overlap between the two (many in Sud vote NPA, and most members of NPA are in Sud) but it's not perfect overlap either, some in Sud vote Mélenchon, some in NPA are in other unions like CGT, ...

Mélanchon is okay. Im a bit worried about his stance on europe, but I had one of his partisan explain to me that is part of his "rapport de force" tactic he tried within the PS government - basically he wants to sell his political weight against the reforms he wants. It's less worrying than a stance I was suspecting, ala "I want to leave EU", but that's a tactic he already tried within the PS government with the effects we know today... So I wouldn't bet mypocket money on him.

Yeah Mélenchon stance on Europe is a bit vague, and it's hard to know how much is part of a strategy to gain negotiation leverage, and how much is what he really wants to do. I don't think frexit is likely to happen, even if we elect Mélenchon (which while unlikely, all things considered, is probably the best that could happen).

[Dameth]

You're confusing Sud which is a labor union and NPA which is a political party. Poutou is the candidate from NPA. It's true that there is an overlap between the two (many in Sud vote NPA, and most members of NPA are in Sud) but it's not perfect overlap either, some in Sud vote Mélenchon, some in NPA are in other unions like CGT, ...

Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. The followers of Bensaid. I know them mostly from the time I was walking with them, hence the confusion, but de facto they are pretty much the same guys. That's the closest we will get to libertarian socialists.

Yeah Mélenchon stance on Europe is a bit vague, and it's hard to know how much is part of a strategy to gain negotiation leverage, and how much is what he really wants to do. I don't think frexit is likely to happen, even if we elect Mélenchon (which while unlikely, all things considered, is probably the best that could happen).

I'm not voting either way, but yeah. Mélanchon has no real possibility of winning, and a duel Mélanchon/Le Pen is probably the most frightening thing that can happen in this day and age, because it would give Le Pen credible winning chances. But yeah... Mélanchon will not make it to the second turn. We shouldn't expect anyone from the left to, inthis election. Hollande killed us.

On an unrelated note, is this young man, Ian Brossat still in the PCF?

[The Wolven League]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

[Bakery Hill]

Interesting that PdG is polling considerably higher than PS at the moment. Maybe that'll be one saving grace from this shitshow.

I was a very motivated supporter of Mélenchon in 2012, I'm not so happy with him now, in 2012 he was backed by a large coalition of left-wing forces, with a program that was made collectively, this year he's going alone with a "I don't need anyone" mentality, with a few regression in his program and some unclear positions (like on Europe), but due to the dire situation, the failure that was Hollande, the even disaster that would be Fillon/Juppé, and the complete apocalypse that would be Le Pen... we'll have to rally to him, even if a bit unhappily.

And it's indeed very likely he'll score above the PS, the PS is completely discredited by how Hollande betrayed about everything he promised and every thing the left stands for (the only "leftist" thing he really did was the gay marriage law, that's positive sure, but quite thin compared to all the betrayals).

How's FG going now? Heard it started off big but has tapered off.

[Dameth]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

You're not french are you?

[Bakery Hill]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

You're not french are you?

Makes it easier.

[Koyakovian Savages]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

Also rooting for Le Pen.

[The Wolven League]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

You're not french are you?

No.

[Dameth]

So don't get your panties in a bunch. French people will never elect Le Pen for the reasons I mentionned. We have an history with them, and we're not giving them our country in a million years.

[Aelex]

So don't get your panties in a bunch. French people will never elect Le Pen for the reasons I mentionned. We have an history with them, and we're not giving them our country in a million years.

Basically that. I don't care about Le Pen; I wouldn't vote for her, I wouldn't vote for the candidate that oppose her just for the sake of said candidate not being her, but I still very much know that she'll never make it to the presidential seat.

[Union of Despotistan]

Either way, rooting for Le Pen.

Also rooting for Le Pen.

Me too.

I just hope that Brexit and Trump election showed the people all around the world that there's another choice than the Globalist Elites that have ben plundering our economies and nations for decades now.

But I'm not delusional neither. This 2 round system the French have is directly made to counter populists movements. So I dont expect a Le Pen win, unfortunately...
If it happens, I'd be quite surprised. Happily surprised but still surprised.

[Dameth]

Me too.

You got to have to be a foreigner to root for a traitror clad in nationalistic rhetoric.

Also I wish people stop comparing Le Pen to Trump or Farrage. This is a complete other animal you're dealing with.

[Union of Despotistan]

Me too.

You got to have to be a foreigner to root for a traitror clad in nationalistic rhetoric.

Also I wish people stop comparing Le Pen to Trump or Farrage. This is a complete other animal you're dealing with.

I have a EU nationality but not the french one. I concur, When Marine Le Pen took power of the FN, i was saddened that she abandoned lots of social policies her father always had supported. But besides that, I will always support the party that has the strongest chance to :
1) Leave the EU
2) bring back nationalism

It could be Debout La France, but they have 2% in polls. It might be some hard line communist, anti-EU party, but I do not support Communism, Socialism, Multiculturalism.

[Dameth]

It could be Debout La France, but they have 2% in polls. It might be some hard line communist, anti-EU party, but I do not support Communism, Socialism, Multiculturalism.

I do not support current socialism, I'm neutral toward communism, I don't care about multiculturalism (the problem in Calais is caused by the bilateral treaty and the brits, and I blame them for it) I'm in favor of patriotism but very much against nationalism.

Patriotism is wanting the best for your country, and that means building a strong europe to stop being America's lackeys. But I'll be honest. If the UE could just be France and Germany, I'd be fine with it.

[Bakery Hill]

It could be Debout La France, but they have 2% in polls. It might be some hard line communist, anti-EU party, but I do not support Communism, Socialism, Multiculturalism.

I do not support current socialism, I'm neutral toward communism, I don't care about multiculturalism (the problem in Calais is caused by the bilateral treaty and the brits, and I blame them for it) I'm in favor of patriotism but very much against nationalism.

Patriotism is wanting the best for your country, and that means building a strong europe to stop being America's lackeys. But I'll be honest. If the UE could just be France and Germany, I'd be fine with it.

What do you support then?

[Dameth]

What do you support then?

Strong europe with european military, and unification in the long run.

[Union of Despotistan]

It could be Debout La France, but they have 2% in polls. It might be some hard line communist, anti-EU party, but I do not support Communism, Socialism, Multiculturalism.

But I'll be honest. If the UE could just be France and Germany, I'd be fine with it.

Youre right! If the EU were to be only Germany, France, Scandinavian countries, It would work pretty damn well. According they have a boreder system and that thy dont make the same mistake to let themselves being invaded by hordes of migrants for decades. Such an union would work pretty well, I think. If it's an economic union, not a political one tho.

What killed the current EU was trying to make it a Political union and accepting lots of way too poor nations like Poland, Hungary, Romania.

[Bakery Hill]

What do you support then?

Strong europe with european military, and unification in the long run.

Interesting. Does that slide into any sort of social/economic ideology? Who do you support in this election?

[Dushan]

But I'll be honest. If the UE could just be France and Germany, I'd be fine with it.

Youre right! If the EU were to be only Germany, France, Scandinavian countries, It would work pretty damn well. According they have a boreder system and that thy dont make the same mistake to let themselves being invaded by hordes of migrants for decades. Such an union would work pretty well, I think. If it's an economic union, not a political one tho.

What killed the current EU was trying to make it a Political union and accepting lots of way too poor nations like Poland, Hungary, Romania.

Poland and Hungary ain't that poor. They're pretty decent Countries and were actual useful additions to the Union, same with Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia.

[Dameth]

What killed the current EU was trying to make it a Political union and accepting lots of way too poor nations like Poland, Hungary, Romania.

Add Great Britain to that lot and I totally agree with you. There is a reason why France vetoed GB entry into the union twice. We didn't wanted them in back then and we're glad they left. Luckily those countries are getting overrun by populists without a long run vision. They will leave because they want to play tough, then they will wag their tails when remaining countries will hint at economic sanctions.

And tell you what, it's what I want.

Political unification is desirable, but we need to build it. That means countries have to make compromises and think big. We can't play team sport with soloplayers, so I'm in favor of people wanting to leave- actually leaving.

Interesting. Does that slide into any sort of social/economic ideology? Who do you support in this election?

Absolutely no one. I'm a pure observer in this election. I guess back in the days I was a libertarian leftist, but I saw what it gives in practice, and I had the luck in working inside the european system (standadrization for the industry I was in), and I was really really really pleased by what I saw. Professional, having serious economic discussions, exchanging ideas and building something together. Sure it's not frictionless, but it works.

[Major-Tom]

Fillon seems fine. I expect him to probably win the presidency against LePen in 2017, and thats a good thing.