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by Internationalist Bastard » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:23 pm
by Kubra » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:29 pm
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:31 pm
Kubra wrote:Are there really people who think the libertarian vote would have went Clinton if they had to choose between two
Like cmon if anything dem voters should be playing up the libs if they think vote splitting is an issue
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:32 pm
Internationalist Bastard wrote:The only people at fault are the people who voted for him
by Zurkerx » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:35 pm
by Aclion » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:36 pm
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:38 pm
by Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:39 pm
by Trollgaard » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:49 pm
Galloism wrote:Trotza wrote:And, you know, Hillary's fault for not being able to beat Donald Trump of all people.
Incidentally, while I'll agree Clinton was a terrible candidate to run, I really hate this line of argument.
This is the same logic people use when they say a person "shouldn't have gotten drunk" or "shouldn't have worn that" when they get raped. The republican party (as a whole, #notallrepublicans) ran a guy who is more ridiculously bigoted than... well, comparisons fail me. Someone bigly bigoted. They then supported this person through every shit thing he did and said. They excused it. They supported him anyway.
Then people turn around and say "it's hillary's fault that a ridiculous person is going to be in the whitehouse!!!"
No it fucking isn't. It's the fault of the republican party. Could Hillary have done better? Probably. There's plenty of blame to go around, but it's not "Hillary's fault!!!!1!!!11!!!one1one". Trump is responsible for his actions. The republican party is responsible for its actions. The voters are responsible for their actions. We need to own that. Everybody.
And hopefully things don't turn out too badly.
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:49 pm
Galloism wrote:Trotza wrote:And, you know, Hillary's fault for not being able to beat Donald Trump of all people.
Incidentally, while I'll agree Clinton was a terrible candidate to run, I really hate this line of argument.
This is the same logic people use when they say a person "shouldn't have gotten drunk" or "shouldn't have worn that" when they get raped. The republican party (as a whole, #notallrepublicans) ran a guy who is more ridiculously bigoted than... well, comparisons fail me. Someone bigly bigoted. They then supported this person through every shit thing he did and said. They excused it. They supported him anyway.
Then people turn around and say "it's hillary's fault that a ridiculous person is going to be in the whitehouse!!!"
No it fucking isn't. It's the fault of the republican party. Could Hillary have done better? Probably. There's plenty of blame to go around, but it's not "Hillary's fault!!!!1!!!11!!!one1one". Trump is responsible for his actions. The republican party is responsible for its actions. The voters are responsible for their actions. We need to own that. Everybody.
And hopefully things don't turn out too badly.
by Stellonia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:49 pm
by Uiiop » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:54 pm
Stellonia wrote:Stop vilifying third party voters and candidates. If anything, they should be commended for refusing to accept the lesser of two evils. We need more people to reject the political binary, not less. Plus, what kind of potential Clinton voter would instead back a candidate who wants to abolish income and corporate taxes?
And please, stop looking for excuses to delegitimize a Trump presidency. A majority of voters opposed Hillary in this election, if you want to try that excuse, and Johnson, Stein, and McMullin did not split the vote.
by Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:56 pm
Trotza wrote:Galloism wrote:Incidentally, while I'll agree Clinton was a terrible candidate to run, I really hate this line of argument.
This is the same logic people use when they say a person "shouldn't have gotten drunk" or "shouldn't have worn that" when they get raped. The republican party (as a whole, #notallrepublicans) ran a guy who is more ridiculously bigoted than... well, comparisons fail me. Someone bigly bigoted. They then supported this person through every shit thing he did and said. They excused it. They supported him anyway.
Then people turn around and say "it's hillary's fault that a ridiculous person is going to be in the whitehouse!!!"
No it fucking isn't. It's the fault of the republican party. Could Hillary have done better? Probably. There's plenty of blame to go around, but it's not "Hillary's fault!!!!1!!!11!!!one1one". Trump is responsible for his actions. The republican party is responsible for its actions. The voters are responsible for their actions. We need to own that. Everybody.
And hopefully things don't turn out too badly.
All this runs on the assumption that the election of Trump is to be considered inherently a bad thing. Obviously that is quite a divisive opinion. And yet so far, besides making him President the voters have no more actions to atone for (although obviously I realize many consider that quite a transgression in itself). Personally I do not agree with almost all of Trump's positions, but I can understand why some people, and not just xenophobic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic etc people mind you, would vote for him, so I don't really blame them for doing anything that wouldn't seem wrong in their eyes. He appealed to them, many others didn't, and he won. Unless everything goes absolutely haywire, there's not much to own up to for the average Trump voter.
by The Serbian Empire » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:58 pm
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:59 pm
Galloism wrote:Trotza wrote:All this runs on the assumption that the election of Trump is to be considered inherently a bad thing. Obviously that is quite a divisive opinion. And yet so far, besides making him President the voters have no more actions to atone for (although obviously I realize many consider that quite a transgression in itself). Personally I do not agree with almost all of Trump's positions, but I can understand why some people, and not just xenophobic, misogynistic, racist, homophobic etc people mind you, would vote for him, so I don't really blame them for doing anything that wouldn't seem wrong in their eyes. He appealed to them, many others didn't, and he won. Unless everything goes absolutely haywire, there's not much to own up to for the average Trump voter.
Well, he could completely do a 180 and not be anything like what he was on the campaign, repudiate his own supporters demands and govern like a reasonable centrist president. That wouldn't be a bad thing.
I could also get a pony that can fly.
by Aclion » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:59 pm
Galloism wrote:Well, he could completely do a 180 and not be anything like what he was on the campaign, repudiate his own supporters demands and govern like a reasonable centrist president. That wouldn't be a bad thing.
I could also get a pony that can fly.
by Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:00 pm
Trotza wrote:Galloism wrote:Well, he could completely do a 180 and not be anything like what he was on the campaign, repudiate his own supporters demands and govern like a reasonable centrist president. That wouldn't be a bad thing.
I could also get a pony that can fly.
Here we have a little thing called innocent before proven guilty. Except in this case we haven't even determined the presidential crime yet, so that makes jumping to conclusions even more silly. All we have are general "bad feelings" about what we think he'll do.
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:06 pm
Galloism wrote:Trotza wrote:Here we have a little thing called innocent before proven guilty. Except in this case we haven't even determined the presidential crime yet, so that makes jumping to conclusions even more silly. All we have are general "bad feelings" about what we think he'll do.
Well, my bad feelings are based on what he said he will do. You know, the words out of his own mouth?
I mean, certainly, presidents haven't always done what they've said they're going to do, and in this case there could be almost nothing the fuck better than for that to happen bigly, but we are justifiably concerned.
by Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:10 pm
Trotza wrote:Galloism wrote:Well, my bad feelings are based on what he said he will do. You know, the words out of his own mouth?
I mean, certainly, presidents haven't always done what they've said they're going to do, and in this case there could be almost nothing the fuck better than for that to happen bigly, but we are justifiably concerned.
Concern about possible policy choices is fine. Coming to the conclusion that Trump voters ruined the nation and it's future and should be generally considered bad people is less logical.
by Dark Wolf Hills » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:10 pm
by Shofercia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm
New Roma Republic wrote:On the book of faces, I have seen multiple posts from my Pro-Clinton friends blaming third party voters as the reason Clinton lost. They say things to the effect of "...third party voters: this wasn't the election to express your distaste in the political system" (That partial quote came from a friend of a friend on Facebook). I feel that this is an unfair generalization. Yes, I voted third party. Yes, I realized at the time I was throwing away my vote. And no, I did not vote as a protest to the system. I voted for the candidate who most closely represented my beliefs.
First, let me say that I am a freshman college student studying Aerospace Engineering, 18, and from a affluent area. I am a white, heterosexual male, and I lean center-left, politically. I come from a fairly conservative area, though it has small pockets of vocal liberals. I am registered as a Democrat, but I vote for whoever I like the best. So now that you know a little about me politically, here is why I voted third party:
I could not in good conscious vote for Donald Trump. I cannot get behind someone who says the stuff he says, even if he says it only to get attention.
As for Hillary Clinton, she just doesn't represent who I am. Sure, it would be nice to have the first woman president, however, there is so much corruption surrounding her that I could not vote for her in good conscious either. So I voted for an obscure third party that very few people had heard of. Why? Because he (mostly) represented my views.
Now, I can see why us third party candidates are being blamed; we always get blamed by the losing side. But you must understand, if I hadn't voted third party, I would not have voted for Clinton. Or Trump. I would have abstained from the Presidential election because the choices were so bad. And that is my right. I have the right to make any decision I want, and I made mine wholeheartedly. If I had the chance to do a do over, I would still vote for the person I voted for.
So, NS, what is your take on this? Are third parties to blame for the Trump Presidency? Do most people vote third party just to express their distaste in the electoral system? Please, give your thoughts below!
by Trotza » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:24 pm
Galloism wrote:Are we headed towards the world of Fallout? No. however, this will likely hurt us, a lot.
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:27 pm
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:27 pm
by Galloism » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:28 pm
Trotza wrote:Galloism wrote:Are we headed towards the world of Fallout? No. however, this will likely hurt us, a lot.
There you go again with the unspecific "this". Name a single action he has taken as President of the United States. Obviously that's a bit of a loaded question because there is not a single one.
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