NationStates

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/10/public_opinion_gay_marriage

Majority of atheists support same sex marriage.

It's no big secret that abrahamic faiths traditionally condemned sodomy, although these days those against have mellowed from stoning to just disowning, and a few maybe even actually embrace it. Christianity seems far lot more modernising with same sex love and sex than Islam is, from what I've seen, but hey. There is area for progress. But it seems to be religion's traditional values (on topics like marriage) and the word of god that predominately fuels one's hostility to anything non heterosexual and monogamous.

What I'm interested in, is something that challenges this paradigm. Homophobic atheists. I mean if homophobia does boil down to religion, and one denounces all religion, then would homophobia still exist? If so, what's really the cause?

You could say ignorance, but then you do still get sexist atheists a lot more, but not really many homophobic ones, and awareness of that homophobia is why many openly challenge religion.

One hypothetical theory is the age in which someone becomes atheist. If they become one too early, they may not have had a chance to shred any cultural/emotional baggage from their social conservative backgrounds, and as such still harness some homophobia from religion.

Some may feel that even with science trumping religion, homosexuality might still be against nature, since it is not necessary for human survival. In which case religion doesn't actually come down to it.

Thoughts?

EDIT: It's worth noting that militant homophobia has existed in many secular states like China, USSR and Cuba (back then anyway) where homosexuality was a serious crime, which included suppressing homosexual desires and 're-education of heterosexuality'.

Settrah wrote:It's no big secret that abrahamic faiths traditionally condemned sodomy, although these days those against have mellowed from stoning to just disowning, and a few maybe even actually embrace it. Christianity seems far lot more modernising with same sex love and sex than Islam is, from what I've seen, but hey. There is area for progress. But it seems to be religion's traditional values (on topics like marriage) and the word of god that predominately fuels one's hostility to anything non heterosexual and monogamous.

What I'm interested in, is something that challenges this paradigm. Homophobic atheists. I mean if homophobia does boil down to religion, and one denounces all religion, then would homophobia still exist? If so, what's really the cause?

You could say ignorance, but then you do still get sexist atheists a lot more, but not really many homophobic ones, and awareness of that homophobia is why many openly challenge religion.

One hypothetical theory is the age in which someone becomes atheist. If they become one too early, they may not have had a chance to shred any cultural/emotional baggage from their social conservative backgrounds, and as such still harness some homophobia from religion.

Some may feel that even with science trumping religion, homosexuality might still be against nature, since it is not necessary for human survival. In which case religion doesn't actually come down to it.

Thoughts?

Yes, religion is responsible for most homophobia as a moral justification. Religion is an illusion that provides reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it is, and to divide the people. e.g. by sexual preference. Much as capitalism takes productive labor and alienates us from its value, religion takes highest ideals and aspirations and alienates us from them, projecting them onto an alien and unknowable being called a god.

Religion is irrational, a delusion and a worship of appearances that avoids recognizing underlying reality. Is also negates all that is dignified in a human being by rendering them servile and more amenable to accepting the status quo.

In the preface to his doctoral dissertation, Karl Marx adopted as his motto the words of the Greek hero Prometheus who defied the gods to bring fire to humanity: “I hate all gods,” with addition that they “do not recognize man’s self-consciousness as the highest divinity.”

Religion is very hypocritical, while it might profess valuable principles, it always sides with the oppressors. Jesus advocated helping the poor, but the Christian church merged with the oppressive Roman state, taking part in the enslavement of people for centuries and now promoting homophobia. The problem is that many workers have not yet achieved ideological independence from the petty bourgeoisie and the clergy and priests and pope are all representatives of the bourgeoisie.

No homophobia is not linked to religion that's your opinion and way of understanding plus even if their was no religion homophobia would still exist because people would still find being married to a person of the same sex unnatural.

I think there definitely is a link, insofar as several denominations of various faiths hold explicitly homophobic views, and that is bound to influence the views of their devoted followers. However, I would not call religion the definitive or primary cause of homophobia. I think homophobia is the product of a greater whole of factors.

Some is. Specifically with religions that condemn it.

Ehh... kind of? Maybe?

I dunno, I'm a Catholic and I couldn't care less about someone's sexuality. That's their business, not mine.

Much of it is, yes.

It does not necessarily take religion to have a distaste for homosexual relationships. An atheist could easily, say, not support gay marriage perhaps out of a distaste for anyone of that different to him. Obviously, there is a difference between a straight athiest and a homosexual. But there may also be a difference in values, real or imagined, between the two that cause a divide. Perhaps this hypothetical atheist might think or have observed all or many homosexuals to be a political position, or to not want a family, etc. and finds that those values do not align with his own.

Anyway, point was, homophobia or even holding an opinion against gay marriage (I think it's a mistake to conflate the two... hell, I think homophobia is an inaccurate word in the first place because they aren't jumping out from corners and shouting "GAY BOO!") does not have to come from religion, although it often may because the original texts - especially in the case of Islam - disown homosexuality or call for punishment levied on gays. And the texts prophets certainly did not recognize the sanctity of gay marriage over a thousand years ago.

I think the key word, over religion, is values. Of course, it happens that many religious people get their values from religion, with or without critical analysis of the source material.

Probably. If you see the kind of shit the Christians and moslems (don't know about Jews) lay on gays, you might start to wonder.

Many faiths are homophobic, and some people without faith are homophobic (and especially transphobic) because they think that because it's not majority behaviour, and largely unique to humans, it must be unnatural and therefore wrong.

Not necessarily. There are many non-religious reasons why an irreligious person would disapprove of homosexuality.

Imperium Sidhicum wrote:Not necessarily. There are many non-religious reasons why an irreligious person would disapprove of homosexuality.

Really? Cause I'm struggling to come up with a good reason.

Imperium Sidhicum wrote:Not necessarily. There are many non-religious reasons why an irreligious person would disapprove of homosexuality.

There really aren't.

Alvecia wrote:

Imperium Sidhicum wrote:Not necessarily. There are many non-religious reasons why an irreligious person would disapprove of homosexuality.

Really? Cause I'm struggling to come up with a good reason.

That's your problem. Start thinking of stupid ones.

Philjia wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Really? Cause I'm struggling to come up with a good reason.

That's your problem. Start thinking of stupid ones.

Touche

Not necessarily.

No

it's linked to douchbags who think that their preferences is universal law

theres plenty of non-religious homophobes

Pretty sure there are still homophobic atheists and religious people who have no issues with homosexuality.

Cetacea wrote:No

it's linked to douchbags who think that their preferences is universal law

theres plenty of non-religious homophobes

Are there though? I don't think I've ever heard of any. I mean, obviously that could just be because I've not heard of them, not because they don't exist, but still...

Edit: I'd be very interested in hearing their reasoning.

Alvecia wrote:

Imperium Sidhicum wrote:Not necessarily. There are many non-religious reasons why an irreligious person would disapprove of homosexuality.

Really? Cause I'm struggling to come up with a good reason.

My own favourite is that homosexual relationships cannot produce offspring, so it is therefore against the interests of society or the state to endorse them. Even historical cultures that were otherwise very tolerant of homosexual behaviour still expected people so inclined to have a regular family and children, their preferences being relegated to the role of just that - preferences rather than fundamental aspect of their identity that would not excuse them from their social obligations.

Base disgust at the act is also a common reason. Let's just say that from the perspective of the average heterosexual man, there is something fundamentally wrong with a guy making advances on another guy, so it's little wonder that one may find such behaviour unnatural and repulsive.

Lastly, it can be for ideological reasons. One can very well be an atheist and still dislike homosexuals with a passion for ideological reasons.

Imperium Sidhicum wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Really? Cause I'm struggling to come up with a good reason.

My own favourite is that homosexual relationships cannot produce offspring, so it is therefore against the interests of society or the state to endorse them. Even historical cultures that were otherwise very tolerant of homosexual behaviour still expected people so inclined to have a regular family and children, their preferences being relegated to the role of just that - preferences rather than fundamental aspect of their identity that would not excuse them from their social obligations.

Base disgust at the act is also a common reason. Let's just say that from the perspective of the average heterosexual man, there is something fundamentally wrong with a guy making advances on another guy, so it's little wonder that one may find such behaviour unnatural and repulsive.

Lastly, it can be for ideological reasons. One can very well be an atheist and still dislike homosexuals with a passion for ideological reasons.

Yeah, none of those sound like good reasons, which, as noted, is likely the problem.

Homophobia among men is linked to masculinity, and most major religions speak to a literally patriarchal masculine ideal of gender roles.

It's not direct, no, but certainly influential.

Depends on the religion and the branch of that religion Such as Catholics.

Taviana SSR wrote:

Settrah wrote:It's no big secret that abrahamic faiths traditionally condemned sodomy, although these days those against have mellowed from stoning to just disowning, and a few maybe even actually embrace it. Christianity seems far lot more modernising with same sex love and sex than Islam is, from what I've seen, but hey. There is area for progress. But it seems to be religion's traditional values (on topics like marriage) and the word of god that predominately fuels one's hostility to anything non heterosexual and monogamous.

What I'm interested in, is something that challenges this paradigm. Homophobic atheists. I mean if homophobia does boil down to religion, and one denounces all religion, then would homophobia still exist? If so, what's really the cause?

You could say ignorance, but then you do still get sexist atheists a lot more, but not really many homophobic ones, and awareness of that homophobia is why many openly challenge religion.

One hypothetical theory is the age in which someone becomes atheist. If they become one too early, they may not have had a chance to shred any cultural/emotional baggage from their social conservative backgrounds, and as such still harness some homophobia from religion.

Some may feel that even with science trumping religion, homosexuality might still be against nature, since it is not necessary for human survival. In which case religion doesn't actually come down to it.

Thoughts?

Yes, religion is responsible for most homophobia as a moral justification. Religion is an illusion that provides reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it is, and to divide the people. e.g. by sexual preference. Much as capitalism takes productive labor and alienates us from its value, religion takes highest ideals and aspirations and alienates us from them, projecting them onto an alien and unknowable being called a god.

Religion is irrational, a delusion and a worship of appearances that avoids recognizing underlying reality. Is also negates all that is dignified in a human being by rendering them servile and more amenable to accepting the status quo.

In the preface to his doctoral dissertation, Karl Marx adopted as his motto the words of the Greek hero Prometheus who defied the gods to bring fire to humanity: “I hate all gods,” with addition that they “do not recognize man’s self-consciousness as the highest divinity.”

Religion is very hypocritical, while it might profess valuable principles, it always sides with the oppressors. Jesus advocated helping the poor, but the Christian church merged with the oppressive Roman state, taking part in the enslavement of people for centuries and now promoting homophobia. The problem is that many workers have not yet achieved ideological independence from the petty bourgeoisie and the clergy and priests and pope are all representatives of the bourgeoisie.

*red orchestra sings the soviet anthem while the hammer and sickle banner wave in the background*