US Soldier guilty of war crimes in Iraq

[Cotton Isles]

We are a neutral moderator with respect to many nations and have many allies. It is inevitable we will need to intervene in foreign affairs at some point. When we do we should do it with discipline and care. American values can lead by example if we live up to them.

So you say that we're neutral moderators? We supply and train Al Queada to fight Russia, then we turn around and abandon them. They attack us, and we invade Afghanistan to find them. In the process, we overthrow a government, albeit they were bad. Then we invade Iraq, supposedly to stop Saddam and his WMDs, but in actuality to gain control of his oil. In the process of these two wars, thousands of American soldiers died, and tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians were killed or injured by American bombs. Now, we are an occupying army trying to keep militant rebels from overthrowing the puppet governments we have set up, all in the name of oil and American Freedom

And to The Sapian Empire, at least you didn't just try to say that America is a Christian nation.

You err in regards to the Al Qaeda. The US never trained nor supplied Al Qaeda. You are referring to the Cold War in which we were equipping the Afghans to liberate their own country from foriegn occupation. Al Qaeda, which is almost all Arabic, did not exist during the Cold War. Albeit, Bin Laden did travel to Afghanistan, the fact is he was never a big player in the war against the Russians. The Afghans did all the fighting, not the Arabs, not the Americans, nobody but Afghans equipped with American weapons and clandestine training.

The US never once gave support to Al Qaeda.

Yeah I think several nato nations including Britain and America trained the different tribes with in afghanistan to fight the russians with the taliban being the more ruthless, so they got more of the equipment. Then when the russians were chased away the tribes turned on their suppliers/trainers/advisors (what ever you want to call them) and then each other until the Taliban eventually ruled most of afghanistan, subjecting the nation to a decade or so of suppression, of all things non muslim, and oppression.

[Blargaflarg]

Justice, as far as I can define it, consists of three aspects: retribution, rehabilitation, and deterrent.

Sometimes, a penalty leans far to the rehab side, other times, to the retribution side, others, to the deterrent side. Almost always, it's somewhere in between.

The death penalty, if it is applied, would almost certainly be slammed over hard to the "retribution" side of things. Whether it also ends up being a deterrent remains to be seen, and will likely never be known for sure.

[Milks Empire]

wow... you people simphasize with murderers of wives, and children etc in the US, Not thinking they deserve death penalties. And now when one of our US sodliers FIGHTING FOR US! is torchering/whatever he did, to an enemy, now you think he deserves the death penalty... I don't know if im being clear in my typing but... wow, some people are stupid, anti-patriotic, morons...

I have a question: what did this guy do? If he was torchering an enemy terrorist, etc, than i support torture against enemies. But if he was doing something else im not thinking of like killing allied soldier, deserting, something like that, than i think he may be eligable for war crimes.

What ever happened to the America where you could say you love your country and you don't love your enemies, and nobody would call you evil/ fascist/ more bull. The America where the death penalty is used, and the real evil people are put to torture and death. If you aren't agreeing with these comments, than you are apperently a Liberal, Democrat, Anti-Patriotic, Socialist pig...

I do not believe in the death penalty, period. It is archaic, barbaric, and gives the guilty one an easy out.
I do not believe in torture, period. It is, from a utility perspective, unreliable, and, from an ethical perspective, unforgivable.
If you don't agree with me, then you don't agree with me. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ninelv]

Yet another sign of America's corruption. I hope for the sake of America and, indeed, the world in general that such men are obviously punished, and that this man does receive the death penalty for what he's done.

[Daistallia 2104]

wow... you people simphasize with murderers of wives, and children etc in the US,

Errr... This seems to be at odds with the rest of your post... Your apparent support of a convicted pedophilliac rapist and murderer shows sympathy to murderes of wives and children...

Not thinking they deserve death penalties.

Wrong. Several people here have pointerd out that this murder warrents trhe death penalty.

And now when one of our US sodliers FIGHTING FOR US! is torchering/whatever he did, to an enemy, now you think he deserves the death penalty...

To address the specifics of this case, yes. Pedophilliac rape and murder deserve death.

I don't know if im being clear in my typing but...

You aren't.

wow, some people are stupid, anti-patriotic, morons...

I have a question: what did this guy do?

Here ya go, this one's a freebee. Next time, RTFA.

A jury in the US state of Kentucky has found a former private soldier guilty of the rape of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her and her family.

If he was torchering an enemy terrorist, etc, than i support torture against enemies.

OK - we have it on record that you support the commission of war crimes. Thank you. That will be all. Bye-bye.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Yeah I think several nato nations including Britain and America trained the different tribes with in afghanistan to fight the russians with the taliban being the more ruthless, so they got more of the equipment. Then when the russians were chased away the tribes turned on their suppliers/trainers/advisors (what ever you want to call them) and then each other until the Taliban eventually ruled most of afghanistan, subjecting the nation to a decade or so of suppression, of all things non muslim, and oppression.

I don't think the Taliban existed at the time either. They were founded in the 90's. The Russian occupation took place in the 80's. It should be remembered that Pakistan directly recruited members for a new organization, which Pakistan admits it created, trained, and armed: the Taliban.

Claiming the US created and helped the Taliban is like claiming the US created and helped the German Nazi party in the 30's. It's based on false information.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

It is interesting that people in the media claim that what the US did at Guantanamo was the exact same thing as what the Inquisition did to the non catholics.

You should know there was a huge difference. The Spanish used this called the rack. The US does not, and never has used the rack.
It has been claimed, in the media, that the US method of waterboarding dates to the Spanish Inquisition. This is a result of confusion and lack of knowledge of historical events.

The Spanish method, which is claimed to be waterboarding, involved taking a 10 foot long strip of cloth and stuffing a peice of it in the victims mouth. Water would be poured on the cloth and the victim would involuntarily swallow part of the cloth. This is because it causes an involuntary swallowing reflex. This would continue until most of the cloth had been swallowed. Then the torturer would suddenly and viciously yank out the cloth, ripping and damaging organs in the process.

The Process involved in the American use of waterboarding is a lot different. In fact, most US Marines undergo waterboarding as part of their training regime. It involves a small peice of cloth and holding it over the mouth, nose, and eyes. Cold water is then poured onto the cloth causing the criminal to have an involuntary "mammalian" reflex. If you don't know what the mammalian reflex is here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex

"Every animal's diving reflex is triggered specifically by cold water contacting the face, water that is warmer than 21 °C (70 °F) does not cause the reflex, and neither does submersion of body parts other than the face. Also, the reflex is always exhibited more dramatically, and thus can grant longer survival, in young individuals.

Upon initiation of the reflex, three changes happen to the body, in this order:

1. Bradycardia is the first response to submersion. Immediately upon facial contact with cold water, the human heart rate slows down ten to twenty-five percent. Slowing the heart rate lessens the need for bloodstream oxygen, leaving more to be used by other organs.

2. Next, peripheral vasoconstriction sets in. When under high pressure induced by deep diving, capillaries in the extremities start closing off, stopping blood circulation to those areas. Note that vasoconstriction usually applies to arterioles, but in this case is completely an effect of the capillaries. Toes and fingers close off first, then hands and feet, and ultimately arms and legs stop allowing blood circulation, leaving more blood for use by the heart and brain. Human musculature accounts for only 12% of the body's total oxygen storage, and the body's muscles tend to suffer cramping during this phase.

3. Finally is the blood shift that occurs only during very deep dives. When this happens, organ and circulatory walls allow plasma/water to pass freely throughout the thoracic cavity, so its pressure stays constant and the organs aren't crushed. In this stage, the lungs' alveoli fill up with blood plasma, which is reabsorbed when the animal leaves the pressurized environment. This stage of the diving reflex has been observed in humans (such as world champion freediver Martin Štěpánek) during extremely deep (over 90 metres) freedives.

When the face is submerged, receptors that are sensitive to water within the nasal cavity and other areas of the face supplied by cranial nerve V (trigeminal) relay the information to the brain and then innervate cranial nerve X, which is part of the autonomic nervous system. This causes bradycardia and peripheral vasoconstriction. Blood is removed from the limbs and all organs but the heart and the brain, creating a heart-brain circuit and allowing the mammal to conserve oxygen."

In the US, only the first part is induced, pouring cold water over the criminal's face. Their faces are not shoved into buckets of water, as the Chinese do, but rather are covered with a black cloth after which very cold water is poured on. There is neither a danger or nor a threat of drowning.

It would do well for us to remember the differences between actual torture and modern US interrogation methods. To claim this as torture is the same as claiming that waking up a person 3 minutes after he has fallen asleep is torture.

[Cotton Isles]

I don't think the Taliban existed at the time either. They were founded in the 90's. The Russian occupation took place in the 80's. It should be remembered that Pakistan directly recruited members for a new organization, which Pakistan admits it created, trained, and armed: the Taliban.

Claiming the US created and helped the Taliban is like claiming the US created and helped the German Nazi party in the 30's. It's based on false information.

I didnt blame America for the state of Afhganistan I said I think several NATO nations including Britain and America supplied weapons and training to the tribes or groups of people in Afghanistan who oppossed the Russian backed communist government which collapsed after the Russian withdrawl from the country. They then turned on their trainers/suppliers/advisors then each other until the Taliban became the governing group. Where the Taliban around for the NATO weapons training, I dont know maybe, maybe not but the people or groups who formed the Taliban group or movement certainly were.

Claiming the US created and helped the Taliban is like claiming the US created and helped the German Nazi party in the 30's. It's based on false information.

This says the late US senator Prescott Bush did in fact help the Nazi party rise to power, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Back on topic murder is never ok, not even the state sponsored "killing" of a perverted murdering rapist.

[Daistallia 2104]

It is interesting that people in the media claim that what the US did at Guantanamo was the exact same thing as what the Inquisition did to the non catholics.

Ermmm.. and how does this strawman make the former soldier in question's rape of a 14 year old girl and murder of a family not a war crime?

[The Class A Cows]

This thread has been off-topic for a while now.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

What he did is still a war crime. I'm just responding to the attitude that his actions are "typical of all American soldiers."

It's important to tell the difference between a war crime and something that is not a war crime. Rape and unjustified killing is a war crime. Wetting people's faces with cold water, holding people at Guantanamo, depriving people of sleep are not.

People who were not around before the start of the last decade of the 20th century really have no idea what a war crime is. Nor do they even know what racism is. I was pointing out the necessity of learning history so as to better put modern events in perspective. The way things are going, they're going to start claiming that if you refuse to buy your kid an expensive blackberry, that makes you guilty of child abuse.

[Daistallia 2104]

What he did is still a war crime. I'm just responding to the attitude that his actions are "typical of all American soldiers."

Another strawman.

It's important to tell the difference between a war crime and something that is not a war crime. Rape and unjustified killing is a war crime. Wetting people's faces with cold water, holding people at Guantanamo, depriving people of sleep are not.

The Bush administration official in charge begs to differ.

The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03372.html

People who were not around before the start of the last decade of the 20th century really have no idea what a war crime is. Nor do they even know what racism is. I was pointing out the necessity of learning history so as to better put modern events in perspective. The way things are going, they're going to start claiming that if you refuse to buy your kid an expensive blackberry, that makes you guilty of child abuse.

1) Your argument was still a strawman.
2) Your attack upon your strawman is deficient.
3) Waterboarding is one of the war crimes we executed several Japanese for.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01170.html

4) Your unsourced claims do not support the idea that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA was simply "wetting someone's face".

In a further embarrassment for Mr Bush yesterday, Malcolm Nance, an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence, publicly denounced the practice. He revealed that waterboarding is used in training at the US Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School in San Diego, and claimed to have witnessed and supervised "hundreds" of waterboarding exercises. Although these last only a few minutes and take place under medical supervision, he concluded that "waterboarding is a torture technique – period".

The practice involves strapping the person being interrogated on to a board as pints of water are forced into his lungs through a cloth covering his face while the victim's mouth is forced open. Its effect, according to Mr Nance, is a process of slow-motion suffocation.

Typically, a victim goes into hysterics on the board as water fills his lungs. "How much the victim is to drown," Mr Nance wrote in an article for the Small Wars Journal, "depends on the desired result and the obstinacy of the subject.

"A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience to horrific, suffocating punishment, to the final death spiral. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch."

The CIA director Michael Hayden has tried to defuse the controversy. He claims that, since 2002, aggressive interrogation methods in which a prisoner believes he is about to die have been used on only about 30 of the 100 al-Qai'da suspects being held by the US. Meanwhile, a CIA official told The New York Times waterboarding had only been used three times. The Bush administration has suggested that the interrogation of al-Qai'da's second-in-command, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, was a success thanks to the technique, and used this to justify continued aggressive interrogations of suspects in secret CIA prisons.

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 98490.html

[The Sapian Empire]

Are you saying American Troops went through a town in Iraq. Took it over. Than raped families and killed them?
It sickens me to think anyone would believe lies about the men and women who protect us from our enemies... No American Soldier, at least what i know in the war in Iraq, has ever raped someone, or killed an innocent civillian on purpose... I guarantee that 100%.

Oh no, they didn't just rape a 14-year-old girl and kill her and her family, they burned them all afterwards as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8039257.stm

You believe our troops actually did that?
(US troops)

[The Sapian Empire]

wow... you people simphasize with murderers of wives, and children etc in the US, Not thinking they deserve death penalties. And now when one of our US sodliers FIGHTING FOR US! is torchering/whatever he did, to an enemy, now you think he deserves the death penalty... I don't know if im being clear in my typing but... wow, some people are stupid, anti-patriotic, morons...

I have a question: what did this guy do? If he was torchering an enemy terrorist, etc, than i support torture against enemies. But if he was doing something else im not thinking of like killing allied soldier, deserting, something like that, than i think he may be eligable for war crimes.

What ever happened to the America where you could say you love your country and you don't love your enemies, and nobody would call you evil/ fascist/ more bull. The America where the death penalty is used, and the real evil people are put to torture and death. If you aren't agreeing with these comments, than you are apperently a Liberal, Democrat, Anti-Patriotic, Socialist pig...

I do not believe in the death penalty, period. It is archaic, barbaric, and gives the guilty one an easy out.
I do not believe in torture, period. It is, from a utility perspective, unreliable, and, from an ethical perspective, unforgivable.
If you don't agree with me, then you don't agree with me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, without the death penalty they get put in jail for years to rot. But apperently now days, we cannot torture POWs, which we should. And they even get their own large cells with rooms in them (look it up). It's injustice that someone litters in the United States and they go to jail to get raped by a big hairy guy. And when it comes to prisoners of war (they're shooting at you), suddenly they need a trail and IF they get convicted to prison, they get a nice big cell to be alone but alive and simply waiting to be let out into the world. Our current system of locking bad guys up and letting them wait for a while, is childish. They're adults, they need adult punishments. Not saying a littering person should get fauged lol, but some people need to learn their lesson. But we shouldn't kill them, we should keep them alive to make them work on roads, buildings, projects, cleaning streets and cities. Make them do something good for society. Seems like slavery, but they're criminals who can learn a great lesson in taking place in the real world. When they get out, their sense of self pride will be shattered, and they will get to the path of living a life freeley. Ask anyone who has once been a criminal and has now turned around, im sure they would tell you that they were broken, that they had to go through more than sitting in a cell doing nothing for a few years. Not to mention their teachings would be good for the economy lol.

[The Sapian Empire]

wow... you people simphasize with murderers of wives, and children etc in the US,

Errr... This seems to be at odds with the rest of your post... Your apparent support of a convicted pedophilliac rapist and murderer shows sympathy to murderes of wives and children...

Not thinking they deserve death penalties.

Wrong. Several people here have pointerd out that this murder warrents trhe death penalty.

And now when one of our US sodliers FIGHTING FOR US! is torchering/whatever he did, to an enemy, now you think he deserves the death penalty...

To address the specifics of this case, yes. Pedophilliac rape and murder deserve death.

I don't know if im being clear in my typing but...

You aren't.

wow, some people are stupid, anti-patriotic, morons...

I have a question: what did this guy do?

Here ya go, this one's a freebee. Next time, RTFA.

A jury in the US state of Kentucky has found a former private soldier guilty of the rape of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her and her family.

If he was torchering an enemy terrorist, etc, than i support torture against enemies.

OK - we have it on record that you support the commission of war crimes. Thank you. That will be all. Bye-bye.

I don't support rape, i think it's horrid. But yes, i do support the torture of enemy soldiers and terrorists to get information, or to give them what they desserve. And the way you said "we have it on record that you support the commission of war crimes", that makes it seem like i consider rape and killing of a family as torture?
But where i am drawing a line between what im saying is i don't believe that this guy raped a 14-year old Iraqi girl and killed her family. I simply don't see in my mind, a US soldier actually doing that today. I don't see it. I can easilly see a terrorist doing it, but not a US soldier. I recall the US doing this sort of thing during the Civil war, it's in the record on both sides of the Civil war that they had raped and burned down towns. But looking to the modern times i don't think it's possible for an American soldier to do something that psychotic...

[Milks Empire]

Well, without the death penalty they get put in jail for years to rot.

It's something called rehabilitation. Teach them a useful skill that they can use on the outside so that they do that for a living instead of being career criminals.

But apperently now days, we cannot torture POWs, which we should.

Riiiight... because torture is oh-so-effective at providing accurate information. Except it isn't. Study after study has shown that humans will say anything to make it stop, regardless of whether or not it's actually true.

And they even get their own large cells with rooms in them (look it up).

Source.

It's injustice that someone litters in the United States and they go to jail to get raped by a big hairy guy.

The last time I checked, it's a fine for littering.

And when it comes to prisoners of war (they're shooting at you), suddenly they need a trail and IF they get convicted to prison, they get a nice big cell to be alone but alive and simply waiting to be let out into the world.

A prisoner of war is a member of an enemy nation's military force. The people shooting at us in Iraq and Afghanistan are not military officials and are therefore no more than common criminals; they should be tried as such in an appropriate court of law.

Our current system of locking bad guys up and letting them wait for a while, is childish. They're adults, they need adult punishments.

The current system creates career criminals by making it impossible to survive anywhere but behind bars. Being a little less Old Testament about it might prevent that.

Not saying a littering person should get fauged lol, but some people need to learn their lesson.

Because they're going to learn it by losing so much that the only place they have left to turn is to crime, which got them into that situation in the first place.

But we shouldn't kill them, we should keep them alive to make them work on roads, buildings, projects, cleaning streets and cities. Make them do something good for society. Seems like slavery, but they're criminals who can learn a great lesson in taking place in the real world.

That would count as rehabilitation - showing them that they're capable of more than just being career criminals.

When they get out, their sense of self pride will be shattered, and they will get to the path of living a life freeley.

Quite the opposite, I would think. If they've done something productive, that would foster a sense of pride in having done a hard day's work and (one would hope) inspire them to keep working on the outside.

Ask anyone who has once been a criminal and has now turned around, im sure they would tell you that they were broken, that they had to go through more than sitting in a cell doing nothing for a few years. Not to mention their teachings would be good for the economy lol.

???

[Milks Empire]

I don't support rape, i think it's horrid. But yes, i do support the torture of enemy soldiers and terrorists to get information, or to give them what they desserve.

Torture is a war crime and has been proven unreliable time and again when used in interrogation.

And the way you said "we have it on record that you support the commission of war crimes", that makes it seem like i consider rape and killing of a family as torture?

He means you've said time and again that using torture in interrogation, which is a war crime, is something you support.

But where i am drawing a line between what im saying is i don't believe that this guy raped a 14-year old Iraqi girl and killed her family. I simply don't see in my mind, a US soldier actually doing that today. I don't see it. I can easilly see a terrorist doing it, but not a US soldier.

I can completely see it. United States soldiers have committed full-scale genocide before. Except we don't call it that. We don't call it what it is. We call it Indian removal.

I recall the US doing this sort of thing during the Civil war, it's in the record on both sides of the Civil war that they had raped and burned down towns. But looking to the modern times i don't think it's possible for an American soldier to do something that psychotic...

The United States has, as I said above, committed genocide in the past. Rape? Totally possible.

[Daistallia 2104]

I don't support rape, i think it's horrid.

Then why are you supporting the convicted rapist in this case?

And the way you said "we have it on record that you support the commission of war crimes", that makes it seem like i consider rape and killing of a family as torture?

You support torturing enemy prisoners of war.

But yes, i do support the torture of enemy soldiers and terrorists to get information, or to give them what they desserve.

Torture of enemy POWs is a war crime, as established both by US and international law.

QED you support war crimes.

But where i am drawing a line between what im saying is i don't believe that this guy raped a 14-year old Iraqi girl and killed her family.

The courts have so far. I'm taking their judgement over yours. And note that several of the others involved admitted their guilt.

I simply don't see in my mind, a US soldier actually doing that today. I don't see it. I can easilly see a terrorist doing it, but not a US soldier. I recall the US doing this sort of thing during the Civil war, it's in the record on both sides of the Civil war that they had raped and burned down towns. But looking to the modern times i don't think it's possible for an American soldier to do something that psychotic...

Spc. James P. Barker's statement regarding his mental state at the time of the crime:

"To live there, to survive there, I became angry and mean. The mean part of me made me strong on patrols. It made me brave in fire fights," he said. "I loved my friends, my fellow soldiers and my leaders, but I began to hate everyone else in Iraq."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... e=&no_ads=

It's not only possible, it's already established fact.

[Daistallia 2104]

A prisoner of war is a member of an enemy nation's military force. The people shooting at us in Iraq and Afghanistan are not military officials and are therefore no more than common criminals; they should be tried as such in an appropriate court of law.

It's not that simple. Article 4 of GCIII recognizes "members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements" as well as "inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces", as well as several other catagories of lawful combatants. Furthermore, article 5 stipulates that in cases where there is doubt about a combatants legal status, they shall be treated as a POW until a competent tribunal ajudges otherwise. http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y3gctpw.htm

And the backlash of other countries arguing that US citizens are "unlawful combatants" has already started. Look up Hassan Bility, among others.

[Milks Empire]

A prisoner of war is a member of an enemy nation's military force. The people shooting at us in Iraq and Afghanistan are not military officials and are therefore no more than common criminals; they should be tried as such in an appropriate court of law.

It's not that simple. Article 4 of GCIII recognizes "members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements" as well as "inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces", as well as several other catagories of lawful combatants. Furthermore, article 5 stipulates that in cases where there is doubt about a combatants legal status, they shall be treated as a POW until a competent tribunal ajudges otherwise. http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y3gctpw.htm

And the backlash of other countries arguing that US citizens are "unlawful combatants" has already started. Look up Hassan Bility, among others.

My bad.

On another note, I'm glad they didn't sentence him to death. He doesn't deserve to get off that easy for what he did.

[Daistallia 2104]

My bad.

Heh. No worries.

[Milks Empire]

My bad.

Heh. No worries.

The hallmark of a good teacher: Being able to admit that you're wrong, something I should have done a whole lot more in the past and something I should do more often than I do now.
I pray that I can do right by any student that crosses the threshold into any classroom to which I am assigned... after I get my BS in Education, that is.

[Daistallia 2104]

My bad.

Heh. No worries.

The hallmark of a good teacher: Being able to admit that you're wrong, something I should have done a whole lot more in the past and something I should do more often than I do now.
I pray that I can do right by any student that crosses the threshold into any classroom to which I am assigned... after I get my BS in Education, that is.

Not just teachers. (Although I am one as well.)

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

What he did is still a war crime. I'm just responding to the attitude that his actions are "typical of all American soldiers."

Another strawman.

It's important to tell the difference between a war crime and something that is not a war crime. Rape and unjustified killing is a war crime. Wetting people's faces with cold water, holding people at Guantanamo, depriving people of sleep are not.

The Bush administration official in charge begs to differ.

The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03372.html

People who were not around before the start of the last decade of the 20th century really have no idea what a war crime is. Nor do they even know what racism is. I was pointing out the necessity of learning history so as to better put modern events in perspective. The way things are going, they're going to start claiming that if you refuse to buy your kid an expensive blackberry, that makes you guilty of child abuse.

1) Your argument was still a strawman.
2) Your attack upon your strawman is deficient.
3) Waterboarding is one of the war crimes we executed several Japanese for.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01170.html

4) Your unsourced claims do not support the idea that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA was simply "wetting someone's face".

In a further embarrassment for Mr Bush yesterday, Malcolm Nance, an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence, publicly denounced the practice. He revealed that waterboarding is used in training at the US Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School in San Diego, and claimed to have witnessed and supervised "hundreds" of waterboarding exercises. Although these last only a few minutes and take place under medical supervision, he concluded that "waterboarding is a torture technique – period".

The practice involves strapping the person being interrogated on to a board as pints of water are forced into his lungs through a cloth covering his face while the victim's mouth is forced open. Its effect, according to Mr Nance, is a process of slow-motion suffocation.

Typically, a victim goes into hysterics on the board as water fills his lungs. "How much the victim is to drown," Mr Nance wrote in an article for the Small Wars Journal, "depends on the desired result and the obstinacy of the subject.

"A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience to horrific, suffocating punishment, to the final death spiral. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch."

The CIA director Michael Hayden has tried to defuse the controversy. He claims that, since 2002, aggressive interrogation methods in which a prisoner believes he is about to die have been used on only about 30 of the 100 al-Qai'da suspects being held by the US. Meanwhile, a CIA official told The New York Times waterboarding had only been used three times. The Bush administration has suggested that the interrogation of al-Qai'da's second-in-command, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, was a success thanks to the technique, and used this to justify continued aggressive interrogations of suspects in secret CIA prisons.

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 98490.html

There isn't supposed to be any water going into the lungs. The perception that the victim is drowning is intended to get them to talk but the water is supposed to go into the gut, not the lungs. If they are forcing water into the lungs, then it is torture. But if the subject only thinks he is drowning, then waterboarding is a legit technique. We're talking about saving billions of lives versus one life intent on killing everyone else.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Are you saying American Troops went through a town in Iraq. Took it over. Than raped families and killed them?
It sickens me to think anyone would believe lies about the men and women who protect us from our enemies... No American Soldier, at least what i know in the war in Iraq, has ever raped someone, or killed an innocent civillian on purpose... I guarantee that 100%.

Oh no, they didn't just rape a 14-year-old girl and kill her and her family, they burned them all afterwards as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8039257.stm

You believe our troops actually did that?
(US troops)

All of the soldiers involved were found guilty. The problem is that people want to make the false claim that ALL US Soldiers are doing that stuff. It's a couple of bad apples and we punished them. That is something you will never any other country do. The Europeans are still protecting European soldiers who are guilty of worse things. You think raping a young girl is bad? How about mass rape as carried out by British and Australian troops in Basra? You haven't heard about that because those governments are covering up all crimes committed by their soldiers. There will be no trials of British, Australian, Romanian, or other non American soldiers guilty of war crimes. Only the US is prosecuting it's soldiers for crimes against humanity while the rest of the world covers up crimes committed by their soldiers. This shows the huge difference between America and the rest of the world. The rest of the world pretends their people did nothing, while only the US is holding its people accountable.