Should single men have right to exploit women's bodies?

[Settrah]

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Where the fuck are the good ones? They aren't pushing for legislation, they aren't starting campaigns, and whatever they are doing isn't observably different from doing nothing. If you really think you're a good feminist maybe you need to look around and realize that YOU are the outsider.

This, oh god this.

Whenever you get a radfem sprouting reactionary bullshit, other people who identify as a feminist always fall back with 'not all feminists'. And yes I guess to an extent those feminazi views do not reflect their own. However they then claim that the reactionary radfem stuff isn't reflective of what feminism truly is, and that feminism wants equality between the genders. The kicker is they've don't do enough to denounce the 'bad feminism', thus whatever happens they're still anti equality by their actions over their words.

[Galloism]

-

Pretty sure I just said there are a lot of different kinds of feminist out there, and some of them can be real assholes. Stands to reason some of those people will be in positions of power. I'm not ignoring anything.

The ones in positions of power are assholes.

Someone needs to do something about that.

[Ashmoria]

How about this as a new rule.

If you haven't actually done anything to help male domestic abuse victims or tried to get them some recognition, don't talk about what the problems facing more recognition are.

I'm for realzies sure that once we institute this rule, the conversation will be nuanced and balanced and your views will be represented just as much.

"Why don't they just eat cake?"

how about we acknowledge that people work on the issues that they want to work on and expecting them to work on something else is foolish?

[Herador]

Pretty sure I just said there are a lot of different kinds of feminist out there, and some of them can be real assholes. Stands to reason some of those people will be in positions of power. I'm not ignoring anything.

The ones in positions of power are assholes.

Someone needs to do something about that.

Some of them are, yes, and I'm certain we can debate that too. But I'm glad we agree there's a problem.

E: Wooooo 3000 posts.

[Ostroeuropa]

How about this as a new rule.

If you haven't actually done anything to help male domestic abuse victims or tried to get them some recognition, don't talk about what the problems facing more recognition are.

I'm for realzies sure that once we institute this rule, the conversation will be nuanced and balanced and your views will be represented just as much.

"Why don't they just eat cake?"

how about we acknowledge that people work on the issues that they want to work on and expecting them to work on something else is foolish?

"Working on issues" is misleading.

If I were going around saying men were 99% of rape victims, that's not merely working on male rape victims, now is it.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

It's worth noting that the broader social justice movement does not endorse the bullshit promoted by the OP, indeed regarding it as odious bigotry. I have notice a lot of bullshittery offered in response, with people saying it discredits feminism or some other nonsense, so it's often hard for me to take any side in these sorts of threads. I've set up a region to bring in some folks from the RationalWiki community, so I'm hoping to bring some sense into these discussions.

TL;DR: A plague on all the houses up in here, for different reasons.

[Karsknev]

-

Pretty sure I just said there are a lot of different kinds of feminist out there, and some of them can be real assholes. Stands to reason some of those people will be in positions of power. I'm not ignoring anything.

At what point do enough of them get into power and make terrible changes do you acknowledge that the movement has a problem?

Not every last person who calls themselves a feminist needs to be this way for feminism as a larger entity to still have a problem that needs addressing.

[Imperializt Russia]

Just saying, but this is an exact reskin of the whole "why don't """moderate muslims""" disown terrorism and condemn attacks??" bullshit.

Except, in that case, there are almost too many examples of such even to be counted.

I suspect the answer is much the same. They do, as individuals, and probably as organisations. But no-one looks and no-one cares. Or confirmation bias.

Actually, it seems to me that a lot more muslims condemn terrorism than feminists condemn Mary Koss, or the issues in India or Israel.

In fact, I have yet to find one other than my wife.

Can't be looking far, since "r/askfeminists", linked above, apparently has a resource of "list of feminist organisations fighting for men's issues".

To me, that sounds like a pretty basic starting point, in lieu of wikipedia not really being sufficient for this sort of thing.

I'm in a couple of feminist circles and know plenty of feminist men and women in my social circles. And I've yet to meet a single one that doesn't agree one these topics overtly or in part.
Except for the actual feminist circle, none of whom I've ever met and I dislike for other reasons.

[Gauthier]

So how long before radfems complain that co-ed dorms are patriarchal oppression?

[Settrah]

So how long before radfems complain that co-ed dorms are patriarchal oppression?

The ultimate manspreading.

Institutionalized manspreading.

[Imperializt Russia]

Where the fuck are the good ones? They aren't pushing for legislation, they aren't starting campaigns, and whatever they are doing isn't observably different from doing nothing. If you really think you're a good feminist maybe you need to look around and realize that YOU are the outsider.

This, oh god this.

Whenever you get a radfem sprouting reactionary bullshit, other people who identify as a feminist always fall back with 'not all feminists'. And yes I guess to an extent those feminazi views do not reflect their own. However they then claim that the reactionary radfem stuff isn't reflective of what feminism truly is, and that feminism wants equality between the genders. The kicker is they've don't do enough to denounce the 'bad feminism', thus whatever happens they're still anti equality by their actions over their words.

What are they going to do? Ban them from the internet? Revoke their treehouse membership?

What do you expect them to do or believe it is physically possible for them to do? It's not going to make radfems go away, no-one likes them anyway.

To go back to the allegory I already made, it's like wondering why, when muslims denounce terrorist organisations, why Islamist organisations still exist.

[Ostroeuropa]

This, oh god this.

Whenever you get a radfem sprouting reactionary bullshit, other people who identify as a feminist always fall back with 'not all feminists'. And yes I guess to an extent those feminazi views do not reflect their own. However they then claim that the reactionary radfem stuff isn't reflective of what feminism truly is, and that feminism wants equality between the genders. The kicker is they've don't do enough to denounce the 'bad feminism', thus whatever happens they're still anti equality by their actions over their words.

What are they going to do? Ban them from the internet? Revoke their treehouse membership?

What do you expect them to do or believe it is physically possible for them to do? It's not going to make radfems go away, no-one likes them anyway.

To go back to the allegory I already made, it's like wondering why, when muslims denounce terrorist organisations, why Islamist organisations still exist.

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

If all muslims ever offered was condemnation when prompted, we'd be right to be suspicious of the entire community.
They actively organize to fight fundamentalism.

They dont just whine about how they have different priorities and someone else should do it.

[Galloism]

The ones in positions of power are assholes.

Someone needs to do something about that.

Some of them are, yes, and I'm certain we can debate that too. But I'm glad we agree there's a problem.

E: Wooooo 3000 posts.

I'll go out on a limb and say "most", at least regarding those in positions of authority.

They're defending rapists and domestic abusers. That makes them deplorable in my book.

[Imperializt Russia]

What are they going to do? Ban them from the internet? Revoke their treehouse membership?

What do you expect them to do or believe it is physically possible for them to do? It's not going to make radfems go away, no-one likes them anyway.

To go back to the allegory I already made, it's like wondering why, when muslims denounce terrorist organisations, why Islamist organisations still exist.

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

[Settrah]

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

Yet. But they'll find a reason to do it.

[Herador]

Some of them are, yes, and I'm certain we can debate that too. But I'm glad we agree there's a problem.

E: Wooooo 3000 posts.

I'll go out on a limb and say "most", at least regarding those in positions of authority.

They're defending rapists and domestic abusers. That makes them deplorable in my book.

Some probably are, and that is bad. I've yet to see any evidence that most of them are.

Worth noting that as far as the political leaders go, they are political leaders. I don't intend to make excuses, they're still bad people, but they're also making political decisions, and I won't totally conflate that with the "movement" at large. I don't blame you for disagreeing if you do.

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

Yet. But they'll find a reason to do it.

Just like how the Soviet's toppled Western Europe, right?

[Imperializt Russia]

What are they going to do? Ban them from the internet? Revoke their treehouse membership?

What do you expect them to do or believe it is physically possible for them to do? It's not going to make radfems go away, no-one likes them anyway.

To go back to the allegory I already made, it's like wondering why, when muslims denounce terrorist organisations, why Islamist organisations still exist.

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

If all muslims ever offered was condemnation when prompted, we'd be right to be suspicious of the entire community.
They actively organize to fight fundamentalism.

They dont just whine about how they have different priorities and someone else should do it.

Regarding your edit, I'm finding it inescapable you seem to be suggesting that """moderate feminists""" should start assassinating radfems because you really don't like them.

Or that we should encourage muslims to specifically fight Islamist organisations, to justify their continued residence in the west.

I don't think this is a road we should embark upon.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

To pretend that the effect of feminists misandry isn't violence is to miss the point.

[Fartsniffage]

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

Yet. But they'll find a reason to do it.

Oh don't be silly.

[Ashmoria]

how about we acknowledge that people work on the issues that they want to work on and expecting them to work on something else is foolish?

"Working on issues" is misleading.

If I were going around saying men were 99% of rape victims, that's not merely working on male rape victims, now is it.

no it would mean you were wrong.

but if you wanted to work on the issue of men being raped I would not fault you for not working on the issue of women being raped.

[Imperializt Russia]

Perhaps because radfems aren't fighting a violent insurrection to uproot the western patriarchy.

Yet. But they'll find a reason to do it.

lol

this entire thread is pretty much just me holding a hand to my face and muttering "jfc" every third post.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

If all muslims ever offered was condemnation when prompted, we'd be right to be suspicious of the entire community.
They actively organize to fight fundamentalism.

They dont just whine about how they have different priorities and someone else should do it.

Regarding your edit, I'm finding it inescapable you seem to be suggesting that """moderate feminists""" should start assassinating radfems because you really don't like them.

Or that we should encourage muslims to specifically fight Islamist organisations, to justify their continued residence in the west.

I don't think this is a road we should embark upon.

I'm suggesting they own their shit and do something about it rather than merely condemn it.

Where is the feminist organization devoted to combating feminist generated misandry? Is there even one in the entire world?

[Galloism]

I'll go out on a limb and say "most", at least regarding those in positions of authority.

They're defending rapists and domestic abusers. That makes them deplorable in my book.

Some probably are, and that is bad. I've yet to see any evidence that most of them are.

You've been provided the evidence in a number of scientific links, along with newspaper articles and such. I suggest you read it. Probably will take you 30mins or so.

Worth noting that as far as the political leaders go, they are political leaders. I don't intend to make excuses, they're still bad people, but they're also making political decisions, and I won't totally conflate that with the "movement" at large. I don't blame you for disagreeing if you do.

When feminists pressure politicians to take sexist stances, they are every bit as responsible as the politicians themselves who took them out of fear - just like the people who are supporting Trump are every bit as responsible as the politicians themselves are supporting Trump.

... I see a lot of parallels between American Conservatism and Feminism, lately.

[Imperializt Russia]

Regarding your edit, I'm finding it inescapable you seem to be suggesting that """moderate feminists""" should start assassinating radfems because you really don't like them.

Or that we should encourage muslims to specifically fight Islamist organisations, to justify their continued residence in the west.

I don't think this is a road we should embark upon.

I'm suggesting they own their shit and do something about it rather than merely condemn it.

Where is the feminist organization devoted to combating feminist generated misandry? Is there even one in the entire world?

I'm not hearing a no.

[Settrah]

It's not equivalent.
Muslims actually DO something about it. Sometimes they fight and die for it.

If all muslims ever offered was condemnation when prompted, we'd be right to be suspicious of the entire community.
They actively organize to fight fundamentalism.

They dont just whine about how they have different priorities and someone else should do it.

Regarding your edit, I'm finding it inescapable you seem to be suggesting that """moderate feminists""" should start assassinating radfems because you really don't like them.

Or that we should encourage muslims to specifically fight Islamist organisations, to justify their continued residence in the west.

I don't think this is a road we should embark upon.

Radfems are anti gender equality, feminism claims to champion that gender equality. Radfems are an obstacle to that goal.

Why is that not a road to embark? Without that gender equality, the feminist movement is moot, a joke.