Should single men have right to exploit women's bodies?

[Ashmoria]

I don't have a problem with institutional feminism not being perfect.

I do have a problem with people saying, essentially, "well, if feminism supported it and it became law, maybe it's not bullshitty".

It's passive acceptance of sexist bullshit because it came from a camp pretending to be for equality. Passive acceptance isn't acceptable in response to sexism, regardless of source. If you accept feminism isn't perfect, don't try to passively accept sexist bullshit supported by the feminist movement. Call it out. Say it's wrong.

If you're going to be for equality, BE for equality.

Don't just pay lip service.

I'm really not going to get all upset about things I know nothing about on the word of someone on the internet. something that happened in Israel or some other country presented in a one sentence explanation.

and please don't be bothered to provide links I'm also really not going to do massive research on stuff that happens on occasion in other countries to see if what you provide tells the whole story.

[Fartsniffage]

Then you make feminism, as a movement, part of the patriarchy and supporting thereof. Feminism therefore calls for the destruction of itself.

That's gotta be problematic for you.

I don't have a problem with institutional feminism not being perfect.

I do. I want any group I associate with to aspire to perfection.

I accept that it will probably never get there but to just give up and say that institutional feminism is now sexist but oh well? Nah, fuck that noise.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's because of feminists that society at large refuses to believe men can be abused.

They may not have piled up the shit, but they're guarding it with a pitchfork, i'd say it's safe to say they're the reason it can't get cleaned up. You can dodge that and try and ignore it all you like, but it will never stop being true.

no it isn't.

oh don't be silly. for that to be true there would have had to have been a time when abused men were supported by society.

Why is that necessary for it to be true?
Like I said, they didn't pile up the shit, but they're guarding it with a pitchfork.

If I spill my spaghetti in an airport, and some massive burly asshole comes up with a machete and starts threatening cleaning staff if they try and clean it up, whose fault is it that the mess can't get cleaned up?

Face it.

The reason society at large refuses to believe men can be victims of abuse, is the feminist movement.
They didn't cause the mess, but they're actively trying to ensure it remains. That makes it their responsibility.

Not all of them, but enough.

You've just refused to accept this point and repeated that they didn't cause the mess. Nobody has claimed they did. Just that they are the primary reason it's still around.

Try and actually address this point instead of again just defending the machette wielding psychopath by blaming me for the spill. I also don't give a shit if that psycho is a war hero who killed osama. Still a damn psycho. It makes you pretty suspect if you refuse to acknowledge when he's being a problem.

[Herador]

Disturbing, I'll admit, but a single 12 year old legislation doesn't define a movement.

It's part of an overarching pattern.

Thirty years of feminists suppressing information regarding male victims. 30 years of trying to protect domestic abusers when they happen to be female. 30 years of threatening researchers from everything from their jobs to their lives.

The pattern is there. You can't ignore it.

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

[Galloism]

I do have a problem with people saying, essentially, "well, if feminism supported it and it became law, maybe it's not bullshitty".

It's passive acceptance of sexist bullshit because it came from a camp pretending to be for equality. Passive acceptance isn't acceptable in response to sexism, regardless of source. If you accept feminism isn't perfect, don't try to passively accept sexist bullshit supported by the feminist movement. Call it out. Say it's wrong.

If you're going to be for equality, BE for equality.

Don't just pay lip service.

I'm really not going to get all upset about things I know nothing about on the word of someone on the internet. something that happened in Israel or some other country presented in a one sentence explanation.

and please don't be bothered to provide links I'm also really not going to do massive research on stuff that happens on occasion in other countries to see if what you provide tells the whole story.

By all means, bury your head in the sand if you want to - just don't pretend to be for equality while doing it.

I'd be happy to provide links and full explanations, but if you're not going to accept any challenge your worldview even if I spoonfeed you the evidence, I don't see the point.

[Ashmoria]

no it isn't.

oh don't be silly. for that to be true there would have had to have been a time when abused men were supported by society.

No, it doesn't. Men and women were treated equally shitty when it came to DV for a long time.

Feminists came along and said "you know, we need to treat women better" and lobbied hard for it. And there have been substantial improvements.

Then some people said "hey, you know we need to treat men better too" and feminists started screaming "NO WE CAN'T, YOU WILL HURT WOMEN IF WE DO THAT! WOMEN ARE THE ONLY TRUE VICTIMS!" and politicians went "shit, ok, damn. Don't bite me."

And here we are.

#notallfeminists

*shrug*

seems to me that it actually comes down to how we as a society don't give a fuck about bad things that happen to men.

[Galloism]

It's part of an overarching pattern.

Thirty years of feminists suppressing information regarding male victims. 30 years of trying to protect domestic abusers when they happen to be female. 30 years of threatening researchers from everything from their jobs to their lives.

The pattern is there. You can't ignore it.

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Then why aren't feminists, by and large, doing this?

Passive acceptance of sexism is not ok.

[Ashmoria]

I'm really not going to get all upset about things I know nothing about on the word of someone on the internet. something that happened in Israel or some other country presented in a one sentence explanation.

and please don't be bothered to provide links I'm also really not going to do massive research on stuff that happens on occasion in other countries to see if what you provide tells the whole story.

By all means, bury your head in the sand if you want to - just don't pretend to be for equality while doing it.

I'd be happy to provide links and full explanations, but if you're not going to accept any challenge your worldview even if I spoonfeed you the evidence, I don't see the point.

thank you.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's part of an overarching pattern.

Thirty years of feminists suppressing information regarding male victims. 30 years of trying to protect domestic abusers when they happen to be female. 30 years of threatening researchers from everything from their jobs to their lives.

The pattern is there. You can't ignore it.

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Can you find me a single feminist publication that isn't a problem when it comes to mens issues?

I've got news for you.
The movement pointing these people out, mocking them, and trying to make them feel unwelcome, is the mens rights movement.

[Karsknev]

I do have a problem with people saying, essentially, "well, if feminism supported it and it became law, maybe it's not bullshitty".

It's passive acceptance of sexist bullshit because it came from a camp pretending to be for equality. Passive acceptance isn't acceptable in response to sexism, regardless of source. If you accept feminism isn't perfect, don't try to passively accept sexist bullshit supported by the feminist movement. Call it out. Say it's wrong.

If you're going to be for equality, BE for equality.

Don't just pay lip service.

I'm really not going to get all upset about things I know nothing about on the word of someone on the internet. something that happened in Israel or some other country presented in a one sentence explanation.

and please don't be bothered to provide links I'm also really not going to do massive research on stuff that happens on occasion in other countries to see if what you provide tells the whole story.

What I'm hearing from this is, "You probably have a point, but I don't want to put myself in danger of acknowledging it."

At what point do you think feminism has a problem? Why is the fact that top tier organizations are making distinctly sexist legislation specifically in the name of feminism apparently not enough to warrant even a blink or thought of concern?

[Herador]

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Then why aren't feminists, by and large, doing this?

Passive acceptance of sexism is not ok.

Nor is it the same thing as actively fighting against men trying to report domestic violence and rape. Just because people don't focus on everything they need to/should be focusing on all the time doesn't mean they're against it.

Can you find me a single feminist publication that isn't a problem when it comes to mens issues?

I've got news for you.
The movement pointing these people out, mocking them, and trying to make them feel unwelcome, is the mens rights movement.

This is where this conversation ends. I have no interest in discussing that particularly complicated issue, though in case this does come up again between us, my feelings on MRA's and Feminists are largely the same, just tainted when it comes to MRA's because of anti- fem's who happen to also claim to be MRA's and Reddit.

[Ashmoria]

I'm really not going to get all upset about things I know nothing about on the word of someone on the internet. something that happened in Israel or some other country presented in a one sentence explanation.

and please don't be bothered to provide links I'm also really not going to do massive research on stuff that happens on occasion in other countries to see if what you provide tells the whole story.

What I'm hearing from this is, "You probably have a point, but I don't want to put myself in danger of acknowledging it."

At what point do you think feminism has a problem? Why is the fact that top tier organizations are making distinctly sexist legislation specifically in the name of feminism apparently not enough to warrant even a blink or thought of concern?

what I'm saying is that I'm not interested in spending hours on the net researching whatever instances he has and then try to compare it to the millions of issues feminists might be working on in the same time span.

[Des-Bal]

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Where the fuck are the good ones? They aren't pushing for legislation, they aren't starting campaigns, and whatever they are doing isn't observably different from doing nothing. If you really think you're a good feminist maybe you need to look around and realize that YOU are the outsider.

[Galloism]

*shrug*

seems to me that it actually comes down to how we as a society don't give a fuck about bad things that happen to men.

Actually, that's probably the biggest issue, ironically enough.

There's a very large empathy gap between men who are victims and women who are victims. You can see this even in the refugee crisis - Canada won't allow single men to flee Syria to Canada, but will let single women do so.

No one gives a damn about men who are victims. Not conservatives. Not feminists. They can handle the shit themselves.

Which is why men make up the majority of murder victims, probably make up a small majority of domestic violence victims, can't get resettled from Syria like their sisters or aunts or nieces, and now people like Chess are trying to prevent them from having children because they're men. Fuck em.

[Imperializt Russia]

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Then why aren't feminists, by and large, doing this?

Passive acceptance of sexism is not ok.

Just saying, but this is an exact reskin of the whole "why don't """moderate muslims""" disown terrorism and condemn attacks??" bullshit.

I suspect the answer is much the same. They do, as individuals, and probably as organisations. But no-one looks and no-one cares. Or confirmation bias.

[Herador]

Who said shit about ignoring? I fully admit that "Feminism" is by and large an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of individual movements, each with different goals and methods of pursuing those goals. I'll go a step further: some of those movements are full of assholes. I stand by my belief that "Feminists" by and large, and I'm not referring to talking heads I'm talking about people like you and me, don't buy into this.

And before Ostro jumps in, yeah, there is a problem with perception of these issues, but "Feminists" aren't perpetuating it, a cadre of assholes are, and we need to point them out, mock them, and make them unwelcome.

Where the fuck are the good ones? They aren't pushing for legislation, they aren't starting campaigns, and whatever they are doing isn't observably different from doing nothing. If you really think you're a good feminist maybe you need to look around and realize that YOU are the outsider.

Go nuts. I'm sure all of those aren't 100%, but some if not most seem to be.

E: Also, cut out the aggressive bullshit, I don't care for it and I'm not interested with a conversation with you if you insist on it. I doubt you care, given what I've seen of you, but I'd like to make it known either way.

[Ashmoria]

*shrug*

seems to me that it actually comes down to how we as a society don't give a fuck about bad things that happen to men.

Actually, that's probably the biggest issue, ironically enough.

There's a very large empathy gap between men who are victims and women who are victims. You can see this even in the refugee crisis - Canada won't allow single men to flee Syria to Canada, but will let single women do so.

No one gives a damn about men who are victims. Not conservatives. Not feminists. They can handle the shit themselves.

Which is why men make up the majority of murder victims, probably make up a small majority of domestic violence victims, can't get resettled from Syria like their sisters or aunts or nieces, and now people like Chess are trying to prevent them from having children because they're men. Fuck em.

big time. stuff that happens to men from war to homelessness is all but utterly ignored. when it starts affecting women and children THEN we get upset.

I notice that all the time. men are actors in the world but women and children need protecting.

[Galloism]

Then why aren't feminists, by and large, doing this?

Passive acceptance of sexism is not ok.

Nor is it the same thing as actively fighting against men trying to report domestic violence and rape. Just because people don't focus on everything they need to/should be focusing on all the time doesn't mean they're against it.

You've been provided the evidence that they've been doing so. You can't be ignorant of it.

I'll even go one better and fish up one of my old posts:

I selectively edit posts and respond to portions when I feel I have something to say.

I'm not activist, so I really don't have anything to say on the other front.
I disagree that "feminism" is holding back issues such as men's domestic violence, male victim rape and the like, because feminism wants to eliminate harmful gender roles such as "toxic masculinity" - with that specifically covering, amongst other things "what? Men can't get beat up by women. Grow a pair." and "what do you mean you were raped, you got laid, fuck off fag".

Does a small minority of radical feminists (who aren't well-liked at all in wider feminism), some of which may be motivated by a hatred of men pretty equivalent to that of legit misogynists, actively try and torpedo things like men's violence shelters?
Yes, those people are worthless trash. They are, as vocal hardcore subsets usually are, loud and disruptive and not representative.

Here's the thing, if they are a small minority, why are they so in control of the policy and the narrative?

They've spent almost 40 years torpedoing the truth about the prevalence of domestic violence, with great success, using tactics ranging from career threats to actual bomb threats.

In addition, when men attempt to contact help lines or DV shelters, which are mainly run by feminist groups, they are routinely accused of being the batterer in disguise, given contact info for a batterer's program, and/or openly mocked by the staff.

Feminists have fought against gender neutral rape laws, in both Israel and India.

Those are mainstream positions now.

However, they weren't always. In the United States, it used to be that only radical feminists opposed making statutory rape laws gender neutral, protecting the right of grown women to fuck little boys.

It was probably largely thanks to Mary Koss's efforts that the CDC used the a sexist definition of rape attempting to downplay male victims. She is, after all, on the CDC think tank, and her view is men can't be raped by women.

Look, if it's a "small minority group" leading this crusade, feminsim has let the lunatics run the asylum. This "small minority" has been blocking progress for FORTY YEARS. It's not me playing it up - it's the actual and real victims they've been oppressing and violent perpetrators they've been protecting.

Look, I know you want to think the best of the feminist movement, and I'm not saying it's irredeemable, but the only way it can BE redeemed is if you push back against these sexist radical feminists and get loud and in charge screaming "THESE PEOPLE DON'T REPRESENT US", and get the movement on track to seek equality again.

The evidence is overwhelming. Your belief that it isn't there doesn't line up. Until you recognize the problem, you will never fix it.

Because there is some bizarre pushback over women thinking "in these areas, I think we don't enjoy the same things men do here", I believe there is a significant bias from anti-feminist outlets to play up these groups and project some image that this is all the feminist movement is.

Does it not surprise you that after all these years people still seriously bring up that legitimately one really angry red-haired woman for "look how trash all of feminism is"?

I'm looking at what feminism has done as a movement, not what one loudmouth does.

[Karsknev]

What I'm hearing from this is, "You probably have a point, but I don't want to put myself in danger of acknowledging it."

At what point do you think feminism has a problem? Why is the fact that top tier organizations are making distinctly sexist legislation specifically in the name of feminism apparently not enough to warrant even a blink or thought of concern?

what I'm saying is that I'm not interested in spending hours on the net researching whatever instances he has and then try to compare it to the millions of issues feminists might be working on in the same time span.

So again, you're not interested in acknowledging that there might be problems and that feminism might be doing some damage because, "Well... I'm sure they're doing good stuff too, so... it doesn't really count...?"

If you really give a shit about inequality, you call out whoever is perpetrating it, not give them a free pass because they're your ideological buddies and you assume that their good works will ultimately outweigh their bad.

[Vendettaland]

Define what you mean by exploit, freedom of choice is not exploitation per say>

[Herador]

-

Pretty sure I just said there are a lot of different kinds of feminist out there, and some of them can be real assholes. Stands to reason some of those people will be in positions of power. I'm not ignoring anything.

[Galloism]

Then why aren't feminists, by and large, doing this?

Passive acceptance of sexism is not ok.

Just saying, but this is an exact reskin of the whole "why don't """moderate muslims""" disown terrorism and condemn attacks??" bullshit.

Except, in that case, there are almost too many examples of such even to be counted.

I suspect the answer is much the same. They do, as individuals, and probably as organisations. But no-one looks and no-one cares. Or confirmation bias.

Actually, it seems to me that a lot more muslims condemn terrorism than feminists condemn Mary Koss, or the issues in India or Israel.

In fact, I have yet to find one other than my wife.

[Ashmoria]

what I'm saying is that I'm not interested in spending hours on the net researching whatever instances he has and then try to compare it to the millions of issues feminists might be working on in the same time span.

So again, you're not interested in acknowledging that there might be problems and that feminism might be doing some damage because, "Well... I'm sure they're doing good stuff too, so... it doesn't really count...?"

If you really give a shit about inequality, you call out whoever is perpetrating it, not give them a free pass because they're your ideological buddies and you assume that their good works will ultimately outweigh their bad.

no really its exactly what I said.

[Ostroeuropa]

How about this as a new rule.

If you haven't actually done anything to help male domestic abuse victims or tried to get them some recognition, don't talk about what the problems facing more recognition are.

I'm for realzies sure that once we institute this rule, the conversation will be nuanced and balanced and your views will be represented just as much.

"Why don't they just eat cake?"

I'm not kidding. I'm getting pretty tired of this. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk about it. Go away and try for a month, then come back and report your findings. Don't sit here and tell us we're wrong in our experience of actually doing shit because it doesn't jive with your worldview.

You're being the epitome of ivory tower intellectuals.

[Fartsniffage]

what I'm saying is that I'm not interested in spending hours on the net researching whatever instances he has and then try to compare it to the millions of issues feminists might be working on in the same time span.

So again, you're not interested in acknowledging that there might be problems and that feminism might be doing some damage because, "Well... I'm sure they're doing good stuff too, so... it doesn't really count...?"

If you really give a shit about inequality, you call out whoever is perpetrating it, not give them a free pass because they're your ideological buddies and you assume that their good works will ultimately outweigh their bad.

I'm sure you have a point, but being antagonistic isn't going to help you.