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Should single men have right to exploit women's bodies?

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:08 pm

Chessmistress wrote:http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2016/10/no-single-men-do-not-have-right-reproduce
Excerpt:

We know we are right in thinking that one cannot challenge patriarchy without fundamentally revising our understanding of family structures. Where we have gone wrong is in assuming that a revision of family structures will, in and of itself, challenge patriarchy. On the contrary, it can accommodate it.

This is why all feminists – and indeed anyone serious about tackling patriarchy at the root – should be deeply concerned about the World Health Organisation’s new definition of infertility. Whereas up until now infertility has been defined solely in medical terms (as the failure to achieve pregnancy after 12 months of unprotected sex), a revised definition will give each individual “a right to reproduce”.

According to Dr David Adamson, one of the authors of the new standards, this new definition “includes the rights of all individuals to have a family, and that includes single men, single women, gay men, gay women”

“It puts a stake in the ground and says an individual’s got a right to reproduce whether or not they have a partner. It’s a big change.”

It sure is. From now on, even single men who want children – but cannot have them solely because they do not have a female partner to impregnate – will be classed as “infertile”. I hope I’m not the only person to see a problem with this.

I am all in favour of different family structures. I’m especially in favour of those that undermine an age-old institution set up to allow men to claim ownership of women’s reproductive labour and offspring.

I am less enthusiastic about preserving a man’s “right” to reproductive labour regardless of whether or not he has a female partner. The safeguarding of such a right marks not so much an end to patriarchy as the introduction of a new, improved, pick ‘n’ mix, no-strings-attached version.

There is nothing in Adamson’s words to suggest he sees a difference between the position of a reproductively healthy single woman and a reproductively healthy single man. Yet the difference seems obvious to me. A woman can impregnate herself using donor sperm; a man must impregnate another human being using his sperm.


In order to exercise his “right” to reproduce, a man requires the cooperation – or failing that, forced labour – of a female person for the duration of nine months. He requires her to take serious health risks, endure permanent physical side-effects and then to supress any bond she may have developed with the growing foetus. A woman requires none of these things from a sperm donor.

This new definition of infertility effectively enshrines a man’s right to do to women what patriarchy has always done to them: appropriate their labour, exploit their bodies and then claim ownership of any resultant human life.

Already it is being suggested that this new definition may lead to a change in UK surrogacy law. And while some may find it reassuring to see Josephine Quintavalle of the conservative pressure group Comment on Reproductive Ethics complaining about the sidelining of “the biological process and significance of natural intercourse between a man and a woman”, that really isn’t the problem here.

Men do not have a fundamental right to use female bodies, neither for reproduction nor for sex. A man who wants children but has no available partner is no more “infertile” than a man who wants sex but has no available partner is “sexually deprived”.

The WHO’s new definition is symptomatic of men’s ongoing refusal to recognise female boundaries. Our bodies are our own, not a resource to be put at men’s disposal. Until all those who claim to be opposed to patriarchal exploitation recognise this, progress towards gender-based equality will be very one-sided indeed.

More sources:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/he ... 48750.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... ew-defini/

As rightly stated in the first article, such definition is going to basically give to the men the "right" of exploiting women through the practice of commercial surrogacy!
In order to protect the freedom and the dignity of women, the Council of Europe very recently rejected the so-called "surrogacy guidelines" that were, in fact, a trojan horse conceived by the transexual MP De Sutter in order to grant to the men the privilege to exploit women even more!
http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_715312.asp
The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE), a human rights organisation, has voted to reject a proposal to introduce international guidelines on surrogacy and children's rights.

It voted 83 to 77 against a draft recommendation to create 'European guidelines to safeguard children's rights in relation to surrogacy arrangements', prepared by rapporteur Professor Petra De Sutter, a member of the Flemish Green Party.

The report included proposals to ban 'for-profit' surrogacy as well as recommending that the Council of Ministers work with the Hague Conference on Private International Law (HCCH) on private international law issues concerning children born through surrogacy arrangements, including legal parenthood.

Distinct from the European Union, the Council of Europe was set up in 1949 by various European states, including the UK, to promote democracy and human rights. While it has itself no law-making power, it performs an advocacy role and campaigns on rights issues. Its parliament includes MPs from national parliaments across the European Union, Turkey and Russia.

It was not the first time the Council of Europe has declined to draw up guidelines on surrogacy, a topic on which there is divided opinion across Europe. A previous vote against the draft report by the Council of Europe's Social Affairs and Health Committee in March was preceded by a protest rally in Paris against surrogacy.

In the latest draft recommendation, Professor de Sutter said she believed that members of the Committee were 'too divided on the human rights and ethical issues related to surrogacy' and that she did not believe a 'majority exists on whether or not altruistic surrogacy arrangements should be allowed'. As such, the report was updated to relate only to for-profit surrogacy and its impact on children.

Professor de Sutter said that she did not herself believe that altruistic surrogacy arrangements should be prohibited. It had been alleged that her support for certain surrogacy practices and connections to clinics in India represented a conflict of interest but these allegations were dismissed by the Committee in January this year.

Earlier this year, over 100,000 European citizens signed a petition for PACE to vote in support of a ban on surrogacy, while the European Parliament of the EU passed a resolution condemning all forms of surrogacy in December 2015. In Italy, 50 'lesbian and activist women' signed a petition last month against 'the commercialisation of women's bodies', reports The European Post.

Surrogacy remains regulated at a national level across Europe. In the UK, surrogacy is permitted while 'commercial' surrogacy is prohibited by legislation. But some countries, including France and Italy, adopt more restrictive approaches.


Feminists have been accused by the surrogacy lobby of "being against women self-determination", pretending that self-determination would make people immune from liabilities (including political liabilities), including not just only political liabilities against other women but also against the human rights of the children: it's not just only that women and children must not be reduced to objects, it's even that self-determination is real just only if it's free from the needs and the disparity in the balance of power, between those who have wealth and power and those without it.
With surrogacy women become objects enlisted in auction catalogues of brokers, catalogues on which customers can choose according to the physical and mental features of the women (including the sexual tastes and even the level of education) then such customers can set contracts that should make everybody literally cringe for the absolute loss of dignity that such contracts underlies.
Now "thanks" to the corruption within WHO, even after a victory within the Council of Europe, women have to face again this very huge problem, worldwide, and even in Europe, probably the first will be UK, where it's very likely that, even due the Brexit, the practice of surrogacy will be totally allowed, even for purely commercial purposes.

Personally I think that's a shame and that all women should stand against such blatant attack, just like it recently happened in Poland.
What do you think NSGs?


I'm not terribly fond of surrogacy but I fail to see why being a single man makes the procuring of such a service worse than when a long time married but infertile couple uses one.
Last edited by Ashmoria on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
whatever

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:09 pm

Settrah wrote:> Rape culture is a myth
> Radfems start to realise rape culture is a myth
> Need to find new fuel from somewhere, in order to support the belief of rape culture
> Notices society deems men infertile, if their partner cannot provide their child
> Notices the possibility of someone else outside their relationship, a third party providing the man with the child he wants, if the couple and womb provider agrees
> Still fails to understand that rape is still illegal
> BUT HOW DARE MEN WANT CHILDREN
> MEN ARE RAPISTS


Did I miss anything?

EDIT: Oh wait, it's a Chess Mistress thread. No this is pretty self explanatory.


Rape culture is not a myth, or do men not face issues when raped by a woman?
I fail to see how consent to surrogacy is exploitation.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:14 pm

So what little I could glean for the confused, jumbled morass of vacuous syllables that is the OP is that voluntary, consensual surrogacy should not be a thing, for reasons. Anyone care to correct me?
Last edited by Senkaku on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:14 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Honestly, based on the sources, I have no idea what they ar3 going for.


Radfems equating surrogacy with prostitution.


Take out the first source, and cm's opinion. And maybe there is a discussion to be had.
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:17 pm

Neutraligon wrote:Rape culture is not a myth, or do men not face issues when raped by a woman?


Touché
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Sareva
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Postby Sareva » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:17 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Settrah wrote:> Rape culture is a myth
> Radfems start to realise rape culture is a myth
> Need to find new fuel from somewhere, in order to support the belief of rape culture
> Notices society deems men infertile, if their partner cannot provide their child
> Notices the possibility of someone else outside their relationship, a third party providing the man with the child he wants, if the couple and womb provider agrees
> Still fails to understand that rape is still illegal
> BUT HOW DARE MEN WANT CHILDREN
> MEN ARE RAPISTS


Did I miss anything?

EDIT: Oh wait, it's a Chess Mistress thread. No this is pretty self explanatory.


Rape culture is not a myth, or do men not face issues when raped by a woman?
I fail to see how consent to surrogacy is exploitation.

So you're saying that the "feminist" idea of "rape culture" exists, but in the reverse? That actually makes sense to be honest. Woman rapes a man, man goes to police, police, society, nearly every human being laughs them off and makes the rapist the victim and the victim the rapist. Sounds about right.

Not trying to offend you, just putting two and two together and seemingly make a five.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:18 pm

Sareva wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
Rape culture is not a myth, or do men not face issues when raped by a woman?
I fail to see how consent to surrogacy is exploitation.

So you're saying that the "feminist" idea of "rape culture" exists, but in the reverse? That actually makes sense to be honest. Woman rapes a man, man goes to police, police, society, nearly every human being laughs them off and makes the rapist the victim and the victim the rapist. Sounds about right.

Not trying to offend you, just putting two and two together and seemingly make a five.

Hmm, not sure what you mean by the feminist idea of rape culture, but yeah, it was only recently that made to penetrate was included in the definition and there are very few shelters for male rape victims.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:28 pm

Should women have the right to control their own bodies? Is an equally relevant and equally uninformative title. No issue.

Sareva wrote:So you're saying that the "feminist" idea of "rape culture" exists, but in the reverse? That actually makes sense to be honest. Woman rapes a man, man goes to police, police, society, nearly every human being laughs them off and makes the rapist the victim and the victim the rapist. Sounds about right.

Not trying to offend you, just putting two and two together and seemingly make a five.


No matter how badly someone explains gravity, you will not float away. Rape culture is a thing, it just doesn't work how a lot of people seem to think.
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:30 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Sareva wrote:So you're saying that the "feminist" idea of "rape culture" exists, but in the reverse? That actually makes sense to be honest. Woman rapes a man, man goes to police, police, society, nearly every human being laughs them off and makes the rapist the victim and the victim the rapist. Sounds about right.

Not trying to offend you, just putting two and two together and seemingly make a five.

Hmm, not sure what you mean by the feminist idea of rape culture, but yeah, it was only recently that made to penetrate was included in the definition and there are very few shelters for male rape victims.


A rape culture, by definition, is a culture that trivialises and normalises sexual assault.

The only culture that technically fits that definition as a whole in this day and age, are prisons. Which affects both men and women.

A feminist definition doesn't mean shit. I don't care how radical or critical an ideology thinks it is, it can't go around redefining phrases to fit their argument.
Last edited by Settrah on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:34 pm

Settrah wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Hmm, not sure what you mean by the feminist idea of rape culture, but yeah, it was only recently that made to penetrate was included in the definition and there are very few shelters for male rape victims.


A rape culture, by definition, is a culture that trivialises and normalises sexual assault.

The only culture that technically fits that definition as a whole in this day and age, are prisons. Which affects both men and women.

A feminist definition doesn't mean shit. I don't care how radical or critical an ideology thinks it is, it can't go around redefining phrases to fit their argument.

Given the number of times I have seen people say that when female teacher has sex with male student the student should be happy to have sex with the teacher, I would disagree with you on the only place it happening is prison.
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Sareva
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Postby Sareva » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:35 pm

Neutraligon wrote:Hmm, not sure what you mean by the feminist idea of rape culture, but yeah, it was only recently that made to penetrate was included in the definition and there are very few shelters for male rape victims.


Des-Bal wrote:No matter how badly someone explains gravity, you will not float away. Rape culture is a thing, it just doesn't work how a lot of people seem to think.


When I say "feminist" I mean 3rd Wave bullshittery. Usually, I don't generalise an entire group because that will make my arguments against that concept look false, yet a the RadFem's are not helping the movement if they continue to spout bullshit with fancy words to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are.

That's why I vehemently disagree with CM everytime she does things like this. Even though most of my posts seem relatively calm, behind the screen I am screaming obscenities like no other.
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:37 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Settrah wrote:
A rape culture, by definition, is a culture that trivialises and normalises sexual assault.

The only culture that technically fits that definition as a whole in this day and age, are prisons. Which affects both men and women.

A feminist definition doesn't mean shit. I don't care how radical or critical an ideology thinks it is, it can't go around redefining phrases to fit their argument.

Given the number of times I have seen people say that when female teacher has sex with male student the student should be happy to have sex with the teacher, I would disagree with you on the only place it happening is prison.


That happens, but is it a whole culture?

If it is, then it is. But I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying that what feminists identify as a rape culture is not by definition a whole culture trivialising and normalising rape, which prisons do.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:39 pm

Sareva wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Hmm, not sure what you mean by the feminist idea of rape culture, but yeah, it was only recently that made to penetrate was included in the definition and there are very few shelters for male rape victims.


Des-Bal wrote:No matter how badly someone explains gravity, you will not float away. Rape culture is a thing, it just doesn't work how a lot of people seem to think.


When I say "feminist" I mean 3rd Wave bullshittery. Usually, I don't generalise an entire group because that will make my arguments against that concept look false, yet a the RadFem's are not helping the movement if they continue to spout bullshit with fancy words to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are.

That's why I vehemently disagree with CM everytime she does things like this. Even though most of my posts seem relatively calm, behind the screen I am screaming obscenities like no other.


Oh I despise that ideology of the radical feminists. They just as much are trying to place women on a pedestal (or sink her into a hole as is the case with this thread) and tell women how to act as society used to. I mean telling women who consent to surrogacy that they are being exploited, yeah that is basically saying that women should not be able to make the decisions and treating her as a child rather than as an independent adult.
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:45 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Sareva wrote:


When I say "feminist" I mean 3rd Wave bullshittery. Usually, I don't generalise an entire group because that will make my arguments against that concept look false, yet a the RadFem's are not helping the movement if they continue to spout bullshit with fancy words to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are.

That's why I vehemently disagree with CM everytime she does things like this. Even though most of my posts seem relatively calm, behind the screen I am screaming obscenities like no other.


Oh I despise that ideology of the radical feminists. They just as much are trying to place women on a pedestal (or sink her into a hole as is the case with this thread) and tell women how to act as society used to. I mean telling women who consent to surrogacy that they are being exploited, yeah that is basically saying that women should not be able to make the decisions and treating her as a child rather than as an independent adult.


Which is why

  • The difference between liberal feminism and radical feminism, is that the former champions individuality and autonomy, where as the latter favours a more social cohension and hivemind-esque group collective approach
  • Radical feminists are not angry because woman are oppressed, and they want to end their oppression. They are angry because they want to control other women, and they identify the patriarchy as a competitor or rival for that driving seat.

Seriously, I've seem radfems flat out scould and tell women off for dressing in sexually liberating clothing and heels, because apparently the patriarchy 'makes them dress like that'. I mean god forbid we appreciate women as people who are able to make their own decisions or something.
Last edited by Settrah on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Community Values » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:50 pm

I feel like these turn into circle jerk threads until Chess or Equalaria come on for 5 minutes, throw some bait into the water, and then leave for a few days.
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Settrah
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Postby Settrah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:51 pm

Community Values wrote:I feel like these turn into circle jerk threads until Chess or Equalaria come on for 5 minutes, throw some bait into the water, and then leave for a few days.


What else is there to do? Take these threads seriously?
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Postby Des-Bal » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:51 pm

Community Values wrote:I feel like these turn into circle jerk threads until Chess or Equalaria come on for 5 minutes, throw some bait into the water, and then leave for a few days.


When 99% of people are fairly reasonable about an issue the fireworks don't start until the 1% show up.
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:52 pm

Community Values wrote:I feel like these turn into circle jerk threads until Chess or Equalaria come on for 5 minutes, throw some bait into the water, and then leave for a few days.


It's inevitable that these turn into circlejerks, no one takes these threads seriously anymore, not to mention the majority of the time it just looks like bait.

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Postby MERIZoC » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:44 pm

Dog whistling and fact distortion from Chess? Why I never!

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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:06 pm

Lady Scylla wrote:A look at WHO's infertillity page on their site shows no definition even close to this.


The articles coming out for this proposal are all clickbait, honestly.

The WHO is not about to change the definition from a medical one to a social one.

And they use the ICD-10 in order to make the definition of medical matters.

So this is a farfetched idea from some farfetched dude who is in an advisory board for the WHO at best, and at worst is a conspiracy theory people are buying into.

Of course, Chess being Chess it doesn't surprise me she fell for it.
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Postby Lady Scylla » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:29 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:A look at WHO's infertillity page on their site shows no definition even close to this.


The articles coming out for this proposal are all clickbait, honestly.

The WHO is not about to change the definition from a medical one to a social one.

And they use the ICD-10 in order to make the definition of medical matters.

So this is a farfetched idea from some farfetched dude who is in an advisory board for the WHO at best, and at worst is a conspiracy theory people are buying into.

Of course, Chess being Chess it doesn't surprise me she fell for it.


That, and they're uncited. The independent is absolute bollocks, if you click the hyperlinks they have when they claim something, it takes you to another article of theirs where they claim it, uncited. Furthermore, a single study means jack shit -- never take a single study seriously. All a single study does is setup up a hypothesis, show said team's findings, and opens a door for further research. If you want something conclusive, you go with meta-analytical studies that take hundreds, or thousands of related studies and establish a pattern of their results. Chessmistress doesn't seem capable of grasping this concept, after repeatedly pointing it out to her in nearly every thread. Meta-analysis also removes the probability of there being bias, something we've always had an issue with Chessmistress. Finally, I'm not sure where they've gotten this info from -- WHO's infertility definition and section shows nothing related to this, nor is there anything in their newsfeed about this.

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Postby Balkenreich » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:58 pm

When Balk looked upon this thread, at the first instant; his braincell count suffered minor loss, his liver was suddenly assaulted by a torrent of alcohol and bleach and his tastebuds felt the sensation of gunmetal being rubbed against them.

Yes.
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Postby Dalvius » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:01 pm

Balkenreich wrote:When Balk looked upon this thread, at the first instant; his braincell count suffered minor loss, his liver was suddenly assaulted by a torrent of alcohol and bleach and his tastebuds felt the sensation of gunmetal being rubbed against them.

Yes.

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Postby Tsaraine » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:01 pm

Balkenreich wrote:When Balk looked upon this thread, at the first instant; his braincell count suffered minor loss, his liver was suddenly assaulted by a torrent of alcohol and bleach and his tastebuds felt the sensation of gunmetal being rubbed against them.

Yes.

*** One day ban for spamming *** in conjunction with a history of the same.

~ Tsar the Mod
Last edited by Tsaraine on Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dalvius
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Posts: 2055
Founded: Jan 31, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Dalvius » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:03 pm

Tsaraine wrote:
Balkenreich wrote:When Balk looked upon this thread, at the first instant; his braincell count suffered minor loss, his liver was suddenly assaulted by a torrent of alcohol and bleach and his tastebuds felt the sensation of gunmetal being rubbed against them.

Yes.

*** Warned for spamming. ***

~ Tsar the Mod

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