NATION

PASSWORD

Why colonialism is not as bad as most people think.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11388
Founded: May 02, 2015
Ex-Nation

Why colonialism is not as bad as most people think.

Postby Petrolheadia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:19 pm

Here is a thread where I would like to say what I think of colonialism.

First, I would like to let you know that I know of colonial athrocities. I know what Belgians did in Congo, how the blacks were treated as slaves, etc.

But that does not mean that colonialism was 100% bad. In fact, it might have actually been beneficial.

As this is a website full of progressives and SJWs, you are probably thinking that I am out of my goddamn mind. But let me explain.

The fact is, colonialism brought Western civilisational advances to the 3rd world. Would African or Oceanian nations used the Western advancements, such as democracy or railway, on their own? Probably not. The fact is, such advancements were brought to them by the colonizators. They were the ones who inadvertably taught them how to build railway or do simple offive work, just because they needed the skills. There would probably never be stuff like the Australian democracy, Canadian capitalism or asphalt roads and highways through the Sahara.

For some black or Asian people, colonialism might have even been beneficial. After that, instead of having to worry about stuff like crops failing or many diseases, they often had guaranteed food supply and access to Western medicine, sometimes having better healthcare than Western farmers or workers.

In fact, while colonialism did leave African nations where they are, without colonialism they would have been way worse off.

And part of the reason why the 3rd World is what it is is that they are is the way they dealt with decolonization. Instead slowly getting independence, having aid in it from the West, they decided to decolonize quickly and stop working together with the West. And now they are getting the fruits of that approach.

And what do you think? Do you agree with me? Do you have any counterpoints? Do you think the approach to decolonization was wrong?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Socialist Nordia
Senator
 
Posts: 4275
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Nordia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:31 pm

So you're saying that imperialist powers improved quality of life of people living in the colonies, and that parts of Africa and elsewhere being such horrible places is their fault for wanting independence?
Internationalist Progressive Anarcho-Communist
I guess I'm a girl now.
Science > Your Beliefs
Trump did 11/9, never forget
Free Catalonia
My Political Test Results
A democratic socialist nation located on a small island in the Pacific. We are heavily urbanised, besides our thriving national parks. Our culture is influenced by both Scandinavia and China.
Our Embassy Program

User avatar
Bogdanov Vishniac
Minister
 
Posts: 2065
Founded: May 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Bogdanov Vishniac » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:The fact is, colonialism brought Western civilisational advances to the 3rd world. Would African or Oceanian nations used the Western advancements, such as democracy or railway, on their own?


Yeah, like the British brought democracy and freedom to the African population of South Africa. Yeah totally. And those railways definitely were to help the African population develop, not just extract resource from the country and move troops around to put down revolts.

Petrolheadia wrote:For some black or Asian people, colonialism might have even been beneficial. After that, instead of having to worry about stuff like crops failing or many diseases, they often had guaranteed food supply and access to Western medicine, sometimes having better healthcare than Western farmers or workers.


*cough* *cough*

Petrolheadia wrote:And part of the reason why the 3rd World is what it is is that they are is the way they dealt with decolonization. Instead slowly getting independence, having aid in it from the West, they decided to decolonize quickly and stop working together with the West. And now they are getting the fruits of that approach.


Western countries really weren't interested in 'helping' their colonies get independence. See the Mau Mau uprising, the Tutsis and Hutu, etc.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:34 pm

The fact is, colonialism brought Western civilisational advances to the 3rd world. Would African or Oceanian nations used the Western advancements, such as democracy or railway, on their own? Probably not. The fact is, such advancements were brought to them by the colonizators. They were the ones who inadvertably taught them how to build railway or do simple offive work, just because they needed the skills. There would probably never be stuff like the Australian democracy, Canadian capitalism or asphalt roads and highways through the Sahara.

...

God help me, I need a drink.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Khadgar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11006
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Khadgar » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:34 pm

There is so much wrong with the OP I haven't a clue where to start. Like holy shit do you know nothing of the history of pre-colonial Africa or South America?

User avatar
Greater Persian State
Diplomat
 
Posts: 756
Founded: Aug 19, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Persian State » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:35 pm

So the millions killed by Colonial powers was for a good cause! :)

Actually, the African people did not want Empires forced on them. Just ask the ZULUS!
I don't use NS Stats
Democritus Member

User avatar
The Portland Territory
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14193
Founded: Dec 12, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Portland Territory » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:35 pm

I would agree. Now, there are many areas in the world where colonialism has been very bad, such as the Congo, but there have also been many other beneficial areas such as India
Korwin-Mikke 2020
Տխերք հավակեկ բոզերա. Կոոնել կոոնելով Արաչ ենկ երտոոմ մինչեվ Բակու

16 year old Monarchist from Rhode Island. Interested in economics, governance, metaphysical philosophy, European + Near Eastern history, vexillology, faith, hunting, automotive, ranching, science fiction, music, and anime.

Pro: Absolute Monarchy, Lex Rex, Subsidiarity, Guild Capitalism, Property Rights, Tridentine Catholicism, Unlimited Gun Rights, Hierarchy, Traditionalism, Ethnic Nationalism, Irredentism
Mixed: Fascism, Anarcho Capitalism, Donald Trump
Against: Democracy/ Democratic Republicanism, Egalitarianism, Direct Taxation, Cultural Marxism, Redistribution of Wealth

User avatar
United Marxist Nations
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33804
Founded: Dec 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:36 pm

Doesn't Abyssinia sort of prove that all of that could have been accomplished without colonization?
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. Religious communitarian with Sorelian, Marxist, and Traditionalist influences. Sympathies toward Sunni Islam. All flags/avatars are chosen for aesthetic or humor purposes only
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.

User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 42335
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:36 pm

I am sure the native Americans who died from disease and who were forced out of their homes into areas that have little in the way of materials to support them agrees that colonialism is not that bad....

Also....Japan would suggest you are wrong.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though

User avatar
Even Less of Mackonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Jun 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Even Less of Mackonia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:37 pm

Colonialism does not need to justify itself on anything but the benefits it brings to the coloniser. And on those grounds remains the most rational foreign policy.
the wokest man alive
Formerly Greater Mackonia and Lesser Mackonia.
Liked Stirner before it was cool. Definitely edgier than you.
Talking Cats and Vampire Lizards with a meme ideology waging war against the singularity via Eugenics

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:37 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:Doesn't Abyssinia sort of prove that all of that could have been accomplished without colonization?

My favorite part is the bit where even after isolating themselves for about as long as Japan they still managed to catch up in leaps and bounds without colonization.

But muh white saviors.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Acarn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 637
Founded: Feb 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Acarn » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:38 pm

Wow, you dont understand history
Proud Liberal Shia Muslim
I am a pansexual cis-male. Call me Connor :)
Pro: LGBT, Pro-Choice, Feminism, Palestine, Two-State Solution (pre-1967 borders) Iran (Reformers), Bernie Sanders, Social Democracy
Anti: Trump, Netanyahu, Sisi, Racism, Right-wingers, pro-lifers, PEGIDA
Neutral: Macron, Hillary, Obama, McCain
If times of tyranny it may be necessary to impose what I like to call a "Jeffersonian term limit."

It involves firearms. And ideological passion.

Wonderful Reading about Islam and Homosexuality

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:40 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:I would agree. Now, there are many areas in the world where colonialism has been very bad, such as the Congo, but there have also been many other beneficial areas such as India

Ha. Good one.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Western Pacific Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14014
Founded: Apr 29, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Western Pacific Territories » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:40 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Doesn't Abyssinia sort of prove that all of that could have been accomplished without colonization?

My favorite part is the bit where even after isolating themselves for about as long as Japan they still managed to catch up in leaps and bounds without colonization.

But muh white saviors.

Somebody could argue Ethiopia made those leaps and bounds because they were Christian.

It's not a argument Id support though.

User avatar
United Marxist Nations
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33804
Founded: Dec 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby United Marxist Nations » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:41 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:I would agree. Now, there are many areas in the world where colonialism has been very bad, such as the Congo, but there have also been many other beneficial areas such as India

India was doing pretty well prior to the conquest by the British.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

Eastern Orthodox Catechumen. Religious communitarian with Sorelian, Marxist, and Traditionalist influences. Sympathies toward Sunni Islam. All flags/avatars are chosen for aesthetic or humor purposes only
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:42 pm

Western Pacific Territories wrote:Somebody could argue Ethiopia made those leaps and bounds because they were Christian.

It's not a argument Id support though.

The only relevance (understanding you're just bringing up the point, not supporting it) Ethiopia's Christianity has on its development would have to do with the assistance of the Portuguese in the 16th century and the tendency towards economic and cultural isolation due to being surrounded by Muslim nations.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Atomic Utopia
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Atomic Utopia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:43 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Doesn't Abyssinia sort of prove that all of that could have been accomplished without colonization?

My favorite part is the bit where even after isolating themselves for about as long as Japan they still managed to catch up in leaps and bounds without colonization.

But muh white saviors.

Or Japan. They pulled themselves up, admittedly they engaged in trade, but they were not colonized or invaded by another nation.

Or how about Siam, they modernized rather rapidly as well, and again on their own.

Colonialism was counterproductive and damaging to our global society. So yes, colonialism was really that shitty, and you are wrong.
Fabulously bisexual.
Note: I do not use NS stats for my RP, instead I use numbers I made up one evening when writing my factbooks.

sudo rm -rf /, the best file compression around.

User avatar
Aelex
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11398
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:43 pm

Muh mission civilisatrice!
Also, Jules Ferry did nothing wrong.
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

User avatar
Even Less of Mackonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Jun 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Even Less of Mackonia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:44 pm

Atomic Utopia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:My favorite part is the bit where even after isolating themselves for about as long as Japan they still managed to catch up in leaps and bounds without colonization.

But muh white saviors.

Or Japan. They pulled themselves up, admittedly they engaged in trade, but they were not colonized or invaded by another nation.

Or how about Siam, they modernized rather rapidly as well, and again on their own.

Colonialism was counterproductive and damaging to our global society. So yes, colonialism was really that shitty, and you are wrong.


There is no such thing as a "global society".
the wokest man alive
Formerly Greater Mackonia and Lesser Mackonia.
Liked Stirner before it was cool. Definitely edgier than you.
Talking Cats and Vampire Lizards with a meme ideology waging war against the singularity via Eugenics

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:45 pm

Even Less of Mackonia wrote:There is no such thing as a "global society".

Image
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Socialist Nordia
Senator
 
Posts: 4275
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Nordia » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:47 pm

So basically, you're trying to say that all people outside of Europe were just backwards and inferior, and needed European "guidance" to improve them? Reminds me of something.
Take up the White Man's burden, Send forth the best ye breed
Go bind your sons to exile, to serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness, On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples, Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden, In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple, An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit, And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden, The savage wars of peace—
Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden, No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper, The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter, The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living, And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better, The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour (Ah, slowly!) toward the light:—
"Why brought he us from bondage, Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden, Ye dare not stoop to less—
Nor call too loud on Freedom To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper, By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden, Have done with childish days—
The lightly proffered laurel, The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood, through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom, The judgment of your peers!
Internationalist Progressive Anarcho-Communist
I guess I'm a girl now.
Science > Your Beliefs
Trump did 11/9, never forget
Free Catalonia
My Political Test Results
A democratic socialist nation located on a small island in the Pacific. We are heavily urbanised, besides our thriving national parks. Our culture is influenced by both Scandinavia and China.
Our Embassy Program

User avatar
The first Galactic Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7436
Founded: Apr 27, 2014
Anarchy

Postby The first Galactic Republic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:51 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Doesn't Abyssinia sort of prove that all of that could have been accomplished without colonization?

My favorite part is the bit where even after isolating themselves for about as long as Japan they still managed to catch up in leaps and bounds without colonization.

But muh white saviors.

The entire idea that colonialism brings people into the modern world is flawed. Europeans didn't build infrastructure out of the kindness of their hearts. They built infrastructure that helped extract resources and assimilate natives. The modern cities they set up were for trade, the rest of the country was still very rural. Not much of the money taken from the colonies ever really went back.
Last edited by The first Galactic Republic on Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TG me about my avatars for useless trivia.

A very good link right here.

User avatar
Aelex
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11398
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:52 pm

Socialist Nordia wrote:So basically, you're trying to say that all people outside of Europe were just backwards and inferior, and needed European "guidance" to improve them? Reminds me of something.
Take up the White Man's burden, Send forth the best ye breed
Go bind your sons to exile, to serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness, On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples, Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden, In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple, An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit, And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden, The savage wars of peace—
Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden, No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper, The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter, The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living, And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better, The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour (Ah, slowly!) toward the light:—
"Why brought he us from bondage, Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden, Ye dare not stoop to less—
Nor call too loud on Freedom To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper, By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden, Have done with childish days—
The lightly proffered laurel, The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood, through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom, The judgment of your peers!

>Implying European guidance didn't do a fuck load to improve life there by bringing technology and civilisation.
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

User avatar
The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10698
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:52 pm

....

Y'know. This makes zero sense.

Colonialism isn't bad because self determination is at best a paper tiger. A large organization can more efficiently operate than a number of small ones by erasing the boundaries.

What's BAD, is that the colonies were treated as disposable.
Last edited by The Emerald Legion on Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:53 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:The entire idea that colonialism brings people into the modern world is flawed. Europeans didn't build infrastructure out of the kindness of their hearts. They built infrastructure that helped extract resources and assimilate natives. The modern cities they set up were for trade, the rest of the country was still very rural. Not much of the money taken from the colonies ever really went back.

It also must be remembered that the European colonialism destroyed a significant amount of political and social infrastructure in the region.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ancientania, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Bears Armed, Bienenhalde, Calicov, Celritannia, Cyptopir, Dimetrodon Empire, Floofybit, Hammer Britannia, Hidrandia, Kerwa, Kreushia, Port Carverton, The H Corporation, Western Theram, Zancostan

Advertisement

Remove ads