4th Grade Nation State

[Aksun]

Can I ask what happened here? A fourth grade teacher went from discussing how NS may be used in a classroom to plagiarism about a spreadsheet? I'm lost.

Someone's taking my original work for their blog without permission. I didn't appreciate it.

Oh well alright then! I was on page 5 and thought someone went crazy. Thanks!

[Neutraligon]

Can I ask what happened here? A fourth grade teacher went from discussing how NS may be used in a classroom to plagiarism about a spreadsheet? I'm lost.

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

[Aksun]

Your friend should be fired.

Agreed. Also, I feel this is a ridiculous argument. No form of government can work in any classroom. You can't implement things such as healthcare, employment, agriculture, environment in an educational setting. I feel you don't understand the premise of NationStates by this argument. Further, promoting any form of government or political system over the others in an educational setting is tantamount to abuse of power.

Oh this is fun! Let's also add that fourth graders (9-10 years old I believe) have developing brains. In my opinion, their brains are still "mush" in some places (mostly the frontal lobe) or for those who didn't get the "mush" their brains are not yet fully developed. You're trying to explain a fluid abstract concept using an engine (NS) that's built on crazy incomplete facts (that's what makes it so fun). You will most likely end up confusing your students and have them grow up with misconceptions about how government works.

[Galloism]

Can I ask what happened here? A fourth grade teacher went from discussing how NS may be used in a classroom to plagiarism about a spreadsheet? I'm lost.

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Point of order:

Proper attribution was given. He just posted my entire work.

[Muthia]

Just to jump back on topic (hope you figure out the copyright stuff), but can I ask why we haven't gotten anymore up dates on xero's "experiment" for a while, it would make sense to me that they would have made a couple more decisions by now.

unless of course it is completely made up

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Can I ask what happened here? A fourth grade teacher went from discussing how NS may be used in a classroom to plagiarism about a spreadsheet? I'm lost.

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Well it's not so much that Xero didn't mention Gallo.

It's that Gallo's research is private, and his research, unless he chooses to make it widely distributable, is his to control distribution as he wishes. Meaning, to redistribute his original work in full or in part, we have to ask permission before we redistribute it in our own work.

Xero did not do this.

[Lost heros]

Just to jump back on topic (hope you figure out the copyright stuff), but can I ask why we haven't gotten anymore up dates on xero's "experiment" for a while, it would make sense to me that they would have made a couple more decisions by now.

unless of course it is completely made up

What are you talking about? Of course this experiment is completely real. How more real is it than a kid jumping up and spinning about cheering, "We get compensated!"

[Aksun]

Can I ask what happened here? A fourth grade teacher went from discussing how NS may be used in a classroom to plagiarism about a spreadsheet? I'm lost.

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Not sure if this has been mentioned already... Is Xero a scholar or has some university credential? It's day 1 that they teach you to cite sources in MLA/APA/Chicago/(another one I forgot). I get that misunderstandings happen, but good god at least cite sources.

Example: In text citation from a book using APA - (Author, year, pg.)
Example2: Purdue owl has some basic APA and MLA guides for citation
Example 3: NCSU Libraries has a citation builder for APA which I frequently use
Example4: There's an APA cheater book that basically gives you all the rules for citing. It's very handy provided you get the updated version.

Edit: Not trying to go off topic here as my goal is to help this "Xero" person.

[Salandriagado]

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Not sure if this has been mentioned already... Is Xero a scholar or has some university credential? It's day 1 that they teach you to cite sources in MLA/APA/Chicago/(another one I forgot). I get that misunderstandings happen, but good god at least cite sources.

Example: In text citation from a book using APA - (Author, year, pg.)
Example2: Purdue owl has some basic APA and MLA guides for citation
Example 3: NCSU Libraries has a citation builder for APA which I frequently use
Example4: There's an APA cheater book that basically gives you all the rules for citing. It's very handy provided you get the updated version.

Or if you want to be really lazy: just use LaTeX/BibTeX, and get the computer to do it for you (this is 100% what I do in every single paper I've ever written - I never bothered to learn any of that stuff whatsoever).

[Muthia]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already... Is Xero a scholar or has some university credential? It's day 1 that they teach you to cite sources in MLA/APA/Chicago/(another one I forgot). I get that misunderstandings happen, but good god at least cite sources.

Example: In text citation from a book using APA - (Author, year, pg.)
Example2: Purdue owl has some basic APA and MLA guides for citation
Example 3: NCSU Libraries has a citation builder for APA which I frequently use
Example4: There's an APA cheater book that basically gives you all the rules for citing. It's very handy provided you get the updated version.

Or if you want to be really lazy: just use LaTeX/BibTeX, and get the computer to do it for you (this is 100% what I do in every single paper I've ever written - I never bothered to learn any of that stuff whatsoever).

Or easybib

[Neutraligon]

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Well it's not so much that Xero didn't mention Gallo.

It's that Gallo's research is private, and his research, unless he chooses to make it widely distributable, is his to control distribution as he wishes. Meaning, to redistribute his original work in full or in part, we have to ask permission before we redistribute it in our own work.

Xero did not do this.

Correction accepted.

[Neutraligon]

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Not sure if this has been mentioned already... Is Xero a scholar or has some university credential? It's day 1 that they teach you to cite sources in MLA/APA/Chicago/(another one I forgot). I get that misunderstandings happen, but good god at least cite sources.

Example: In text citation from a book using APA - (Author, year, pg.)
Example2: Purdue owl has some basic APA and MLA guides for citation
Example 3: NCSU Libraries has a citation builder for APA which I frequently use
Example4: There's an APA cheater book that basically gives you all the rules for citing. It's very handy provided you get the updated version.

Edit: Not trying to go off topic here as my goal is to help this "Xero" person.

No idea. Considering their failure to set up good experiments I would say no.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Not sure if this has been mentioned already... Is Xero a scholar or has some university credential? It's day 1 that they teach you to cite sources in MLA/APA/Chicago/(another one I forgot). I get that misunderstandings happen, but good god at least cite sources.

Example: In text citation from a book using APA - (Author, year, pg.)
Example2: Purdue owl has some basic APA and MLA guides for citation
Example 3: NCSU Libraries has a citation builder for APA which I frequently use
Example4: There's an APA cheater book that basically gives you all the rules for citing. It's very handy provided you get the updated version.

Edit: Not trying to go off topic here as my goal is to help this "Xero" person.

In the U.S., Composition I and II should teach you MLA format at least.

Upper-major classes on your major generally are rigorous on their preferred methods of citation ( MLA for the general humanities, Chicago for History/Business/Fine Arts, APA for psychology, ACS for Chemistry, and so on) or at least should be.

[Aksun]

APA is used for most social sciences.

[Xerographica]

Just to jump back on topic (hope you figure out the copyright stuff), but can I ask why we haven't gotten anymore up dates on xero's "experiment" for a while, it would make sense to me that they would have made a couple more decisions by now.

unless of course it is completely made up

So far there have been four coasianism trades in Michelle's class. You didn't mention which ones that you've seen... but if you missed any and don't feel like searching through all the thread pages to find them, I posted them here on my blog.

Of course I wish that there were more... but the trades are time consuming to conduct and spare time is a scarcity in Michelle's class. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Xerographica]

It wasn't a fourth grade teacher discussing how NS may be used in the classroom. It was Xero getting a 4th grade teacher to implement a system of decision making as an experiment in their classroom, and then claiming this was in some way representative of real life government. Xero has posted a lot of threads trying to support this system, and has been roundly criticized due to the flaws this system has (which are massive). Once that has happened a lot Xero then starts trying to shift or change the system, changes definitions of words, misunderstands scientific papers to try and support this system, and in general changing the system so much that it is unrecognizable from what was originally proposed. Add to that copyright stuff that was being discussed above when another user decided to try and implement a rather better designed experiment to test the original system and then placed the data here where Xero copied it to a blog without mentioning the user who posted the info.

Well it's not so much that Xero didn't mention Gallo.

It's that Gallo's research is private, and his research, unless he chooses to make it widely distributable, is his to control distribution as he wishes. Meaning, to redistribute his original work in full or in part, we have to ask permission before we redistribute it in our own work.

Xero did not do this.

Why, exactly, is it Galloism's research? Wouldn't it be the research of the psychology professor who is actually conducting the experiment? And if he is teaching at a public college, meaning he's being funded by tax dollars, then why would you consider his research to be private?

[Salandriagado]

Well it's not so much that Xero didn't mention Gallo.

It's that Gallo's research is private, and his research, unless he chooses to make it widely distributable, is his to control distribution as he wishes. Meaning, to redistribute his original work in full or in part, we have to ask permission before we redistribute it in our own work.

Xero did not do this.

Why, exactly, is it Galloism's research? Wouldn't it be the research of the psychology professor who is actually conducting the experiment? And if he is teaching at a public college, meaning he's being funded by tax dollars, then why would you consider his research to be private?

This research is a collaboration between Gallo and the professor in question, on whatever terms they have agreed between them. This research is not being funded in any way by any external body (what with the zero costs involved), so there is no external body with a claim to own any part of it in any sense, and even where research is being funded by an external body, it still remains the intellectual property of the researcher in almost all cases.

[Neutraligon]

Well it's not so much that Xero didn't mention Gallo.

It's that Gallo's research is private, and his research, unless he chooses to make it widely distributable, is his to control distribution as he wishes. Meaning, to redistribute his original work in full or in part, we have to ask permission before we redistribute it in our own work.

Xero did not do this.

Why, exactly, is it Galloism's research? Wouldn't it be the research of the psychology professor who is actually conducting the experiment? And if he is teaching at a public college, meaning he's being funded by tax dollars, then why would you consider his research to be private?

Research when done by professors in public colleges is still considered the intellectual property of the person doing the research for the most part (if for instance a company funds the research it is possible that the contract specifies that it is the intellectual property of the company).

[Xerographica]

Your friend should be fired.

Agreed. Also, I feel this is a ridiculous argument. No form of government can work in any classroom. You can't implement things such as healthcare, employment, agriculture, environment in an educational setting. I feel you don't understand the premise of NationStates by this argument. Further, promoting any form of government or political system over the others in an educational setting is tantamount to abuse of power.

You said that no form of government can work in a classroom... and then you listed public goods. So... you're under the impression that classes don't have public goods?

Last week Michelle talked with her students about their ideas for what they can spend their taxes on. One of the students had the idea for a department of pets. So if the class has a department of animals... and the kids give their taxes to this department... and whichever student is in charge of this dept uses the taxes to buy a fish for the class... will the fish be a private good or a public good?

I don't perceive it as an abuse of Michelle's power if the outcome of her efforts is that her 4th grade students grasp the basic concept of governments more than you do. Which doesn't necessarily say much since you set the bar super low.

Please tell me that you're still in school. If not, then you and/or your parents should definitely try and get a refund on your education. Your post in this thread is all the proof you'll need.

[Galloism]

will the fish be a private good or a public good?

A fish is a private good. It is both rivalrous and excludable.

[Xerographica]

will the fish be a private good or a public good?

A fish is a private good. It is both rivalrous and excludable.

You should definitely get a refund on your education. A fish obviously can be a private good. But in the context that I provided, it would most definitely be a public good.

Also, are you going to respond to this?

Given you have told us you randomly email economists about random annoying bullshit, I don't think he'd appreciate the spam.

He's welcome to just say no. Why not let him decide for himself whether he's interested in sharing the data with the person who is entirely responsible for creating the concept of coasianism?

[The Two Jerseys]

Agreed. Also, I feel this is a ridiculous argument. No form of government can work in any classroom. You can't implement things such as healthcare, employment, agriculture, environment in an educational setting. I feel you don't understand the premise of NationStates by this argument. Further, promoting any form of government or political system over the others in an educational setting is tantamount to abuse of power.

You said that no form of government can work in a classroom... and then you listed public goods. So... you're under the impression that classes don't have public goods?

Last week Michelle talked with her students about their ideas for what they can spend their taxes on. One of the students had the idea for a department of pets. So if the class has a department of animals... and the kids give their taxes to this department... and whichever student is in charge of this dept uses the taxes to buy a fish for the class... will the fish be a private good or a public good?

I don't perceive it as an abuse of Michelle's power if the outcome of her efforts is that her 4th grade students grasp the basic concept of governments more than you do. Which doesn't necessarily say much since you set the bar super low.

Please tell me that you're still in school. If not, then you and/or your parents should definitely try and get a refund on your education. Your post in this thread is all the proof you'll need.

And what public goods does your class have?

Every time one of us asks where the taxes go, you say they may go to some mythical "department" that hasn't even been established.

[Galloism]

A fish is a private good. It is both rivalrous and excludable.

You should definitely get a refund on your education. A fish obviously can be a private good. But in the context that I provided, it would most definitely be a public good.

Not really, looking at the fish, as an activity, would be a club good, because it is excludable but not rivalrous (being inside a lockable classroom means you can exclude people, while looking does not prevent anyone else from looking). Feeding the fish, as a positive activity, would be a private good, being both excludable and rivalrous (the fish can only accept a certain amount of feeding, and it is therefore rivalrous, and people can be excluded from feeding it, like per se a punishment, therefore it's excludable). The fish itself is a private good (because it is both excludable and rivalrous, other people do not have that fish because you have it, and rivalrous - other people want fish).

Also, are you going to respond to this?

He's welcome to just say no. Why not let him decide for himself whether he's interested in sharing the data with the person who is entirely responsible for creating the concept of coasianism?

I'm not giving you his email address for you to harass him with bullshit ideas and notions like you do those poor economists. I already answered you.

[Xerographica]

You said that no form of government can work in a classroom... and then you listed public goods. So... you're under the impression that classes don't have public goods?

Last week Michelle talked with her students about their ideas for what they can spend their taxes on. One of the students had the idea for a department of pets. So if the class has a department of animals... and the kids give their taxes to this department... and whichever student is in charge of this dept uses the taxes to buy a fish for the class... will the fish be a private good or a public good?

I don't perceive it as an abuse of Michelle's power if the outcome of her efforts is that her 4th grade students grasp the basic concept of governments more than you do. Which doesn't necessarily say much since you set the bar super low.

Please tell me that you're still in school. If not, then you and/or your parents should definitely try and get a refund on your education. Your post in this thread is all the proof you'll need.

And what public goods does your class have?

Every time one of us asks where the taxes go, you say they may go to some mythical "department" that hasn't even been established.

So far they've established two departments... IRS and gardening. As far as I know, none of the kids have spent any of their taxes yet. It makes sense for them to wait until there are more departments. And again, Rome wasn't built in a day. If you think that you can build Rome faster... then feel free to find your own class and show us how it's done.

As it stands, this thread is primarily filled with backseat nation builders.

[Camicon]

Your friend should be fired.

Agreed. Also, I feel this is a ridiculous argument... *snip* ... Further, promoting any form of government or political system over the others in an educational setting is tantamount to abuse of power.

Teachers should not be fired for utilizing unconventional classroom management techniques. If the students suffer because of it, there are paths of recourse one can pursue. Dictating the specifics of how teachers run their classrooms is a horrific overreach.

Oh this is fun! Let's also add that fourth graders (9-10 years old I believe) have developing brains. In my opinion, their brains are still "mush" in some places (mostly the frontal lobe) or for those who didn't get the "mush" their brains are not yet fully developed. You're trying to explain a fluid abstract concept using an engine (NS) that's built on crazy incomplete facts (that's what makes it so fun). You will most likely end up confusing your students and have them grow up with misconceptions about how government works.

Explaining fluid and abstract concepts to young people is what teachers do, almost entirely. Confusion is part of the learning process. They have decades ahead of them to gain a more complete understanding of how government operates; indeed, the social studies curriculum focuses almost exclusively on that topic in certain grade levels. Fourth grade is a mite early to begin formally teaching systems of government - in Alberta, that topic is first really addressed in grade six - but practicing certain concepts in your classroom is not necessarily harmful, or even a bad idea.