4th Grade Nation State

[Xerographica]

Wait, Xero himself bid $1.50 on the winner?

Yes. He's been doing so throughout, distorting the results for no obvious reason.

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

[Salandriagado]

Yes. He's been doing so throughout, distorting the results for no obvious reason.

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

You know the test structure, and what you're looking for. Thus, you shouldn't be involved in it at all. Ideally, you shouldn't have told Michelle any more than necessary either. To have any real value, trials should be as blind as possible.

[Galloism]

Yes. He's been doing so throughout, distorting the results for no obvious reason.

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

You don't know anything about scientific testing purity, do you?

[Lost heros]

Yes. He's been doing so throughout, distorting the results for no obvious reason.

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

Why are you participating? Why did you force the kids to let you participate?

[Neutraligon]

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

You don't know anything about scientific testing purity, do you?

Considering all the changes Xero has made to the experiment and he fact that there was absolutely no control group I would thin that obvious. The fact that they are also participating and thus further making the results useless, is thus not a surprise. I wonder if their outside influence would be considered foreign investment, and if that goes to show that outsiders can influence the results. If they did influence the results, what is to prevent them from doing so to the detriment of the classroom.

Now that would be an interesting and highly unethical experiment, try Xero's system then have the outsider try to influence it to the detriment of the government of that system the way foreign countries may attempt.

[Galloism]

You don't know anything about scientific testing purity, do you?

Considering all the changes Xero has made to the experiment and he fact that there was absolutely no control group I would thin that obvious. The fact that they are also participating and thus further making the results useless, is thus not a surprise. I wonder if their outside influence would be considered foreign investment, and if that goes to show that outsiders can influence the results. If they did influence the results, what is to prevent them from doing so to the detriment of the classroom.

Now that would be an interesting and highly unethical experiment, try Xero's system then have the outsider try to influence it to the detriment of the government of that system the way foreign countries may attempt.

What would be most fun is to mess with the value of the experiment itself.

"If you lose, you must pay me 50% of your money. If you win, you get to keep your money except the amount you have to pay to win."

[Xerographica]

The results would improve if my input was blocked? The results would improve if Michelle's input was also blocked? Therefore... every country's economy would improve if adults were blocked from participation?

You know the test structure, and what you're looking for. Thus, you shouldn't be involved in it at all. Ideally, you shouldn't have told Michelle any more than necessary either. To have any real value, trials should be as blind as possible.

You're criticizing my experiments because they aren't formal enough for you. So you can't get any real value from this experiment either... A Radical Idea: Four City-Dwellers Share All Their Money.

The United States is also an experiment. But, because it's not a formal experiment... you can't get any real value from it. Really? So we should just stop this informal experiment because you are incapable of getting any real value from it?

I have nothing against formal experiments. Well... except for when people fetishize them so much that they stupidly believe that informal experiments are never worth attempting.

[Salandriagado]

You know the test structure, and what you're looking for. Thus, you shouldn't be involved in it at all. Ideally, you shouldn't have told Michelle any more than necessary either. To have any real value, trials should be as blind as possible.

You're criticizing my experiments because they aren't formal enough for you. So you can't get any real value from this experiment either... A Radical Idea: Four City-Dwellers Share All Their Money.

The United States is also an experiment. But, because it's not a formal experiment... you can't get any real value from it. Really? So we should just stop this informal experiment because you are incapable of getting any real value from it?

I have nothing against formal experiments. Well... except for when people fetishize them so much that they stupidly believe that informal experiments are never worth attempting.

No, I'm objecting to your experiment because it's so muddied as to give absolutely no useful information. It's already far removed from the actual use-case that it has to be extremely well regulated to get anything useful out of it at all.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You know the test structure, and what you're looking for. Thus, you shouldn't be involved in it at all. Ideally, you shouldn't have told Michelle any more than necessary either. To have any real value, trials should be as blind as possible.

You're criticizing my experiments because they aren't formal enough for you. So you can't get any real value from this experiment either... A Radical Idea: Four City-Dwellers Share All Their Money.

The United States is also an experiment. But, because it's not a formal experiment... you can't get any real value from it. Really? So we should just stop this informal experiment because you are incapable of getting any real value from it?

I have nothing against formal experiments. Well... except for when people fetishize them so much that they stupidly believe that informal experiments are never worth attempting.

An economic/scientific experiment differs vastly from an "experiment" in common parlance.

Getting married is an experiment, the U.S. is an experiment, your entire life is an experiment. However, they are experiments as the common man interprets it.

An scientific experiment -- meaning, an experiment you intend to gather real data from -- requires for you to follow some type of methodology and process.

You are simply calling it an "experiment" of yours when at best it could be called a wild fucking guess of yours.

[Camicon]

You know the test structure, and what you're looking for. Thus, you shouldn't be involved in it at all. Ideally, you shouldn't have told Michelle any more than necessary either. To have any real value, trials should be as blind as possible.

You're criticizing my experiments because they aren't formal enough for you. So you can't get any real value from this experiment either... A Radical Idea: Four City-Dwellers Share All Their Money.

That's not an experiment. There is no hypothesis being tested, no variables controlled for, no variables being manipulated. That's some folks trying out a different way of living.

The United States is also an experiment. But, because it's not a formal experiment... you can't get any real value from it. Really? So we should just stop this informal experiment because you are incapable of getting any real value from it?

The United States is society in action. It's not an experiment, it's people going about, living. And while you can get valuable information from this, you have to apply a structured system to ensure that the conclusions and generalizations that you draw are actually correct. Anecdotal evidence cannot be generalized.

I have nothing against formal experiments. Well... except for when people fetishize them so much that they stupidly believe that informal experiments are never worth attempting.

Unscientific "experiments", i.e. trying new and unique ways of doing things, are worth attempting.

But if you want to test things then you need a system, a methodology, a hypothesis and null hypothesis, variables both controlled and manipulated, sources of spuriousness accounted for, and a plethora of other things that your "experiment" lacks. You can't take any results from your little classroom adventure and make generalizable conclusions; in that sense, unscientific "experiments" are completely and entirely useless.

[Xerographica]

Really it boils down to fundamentally basic questions...

1. What happens when kids are taxed?
2. What happens when kids can choose where their taxes go?
3. What happens when voting is replaced with spending?
4. What happens when quotes are auctioned?

Most of the members of this forum oppose coasianism and pragmatarianism. So they should suspect that bad things will happen when kids can choose where their taxes go and voting is replaced with spending. Or, they should suspect that better things will happen when kids can't choose where their taxes go and voting is not replaced with spending.

Personally, and obviously, I think the questions that I'm asking are very interesting. And it's fine if you don't think that they are interesting. Can you think of more interesting questions?

YES?

Then ask them and find a classroom to help you answer them

NO?

Then you and/or your parents should try and get a refund on your education

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Really it boils down to fundamentally basic questions...

1. What happens when kids are taxed?
2. What happens when kids can choose where their taxes go?
3. What happens when voting is replaced with spending?
4. What happens when quotes are auctioned?

Most of the members of this forum oppose coasianism and pragmatarianism. So they should suspect that bad things will happen when kids can choose where their taxes go and voting is replaced with spending. Or, they should suspect that better things will happen when kids can't choose where their taxes go and voting is not replaced with spending.

Personally, and obviously, I think the questions that I'm asking are very interesting. And it's fine if you don't think that they are interesting. Can you think of more interesting questions?

YES?

Then ask them and find a classroom to help you answer them

NO?

Then you and/or your parents should try and get a refund on your education

I would ask that you stop the academic snobbery, here. You're not doing yourself any favors by telling us that because we think your system is thoroughly exploitable, but we do not have any means to test it other than theoretical musings for many of us, that we should get a refund on our college education. For all I could care you're just some 18 year old high school graduate who just thought gambling was a good idea to run a country. So if you are going to compare academic achievements, don't. Because for the most part we can all wave our dicks around with our degrees and certifications and still come out on top of you.

Our problem is not that there is a lot of theory that we can discuss. And we have people learned in traditional economics and other fields to help you hammer those issues out (which you have utterly refused to address properly because you think they have nothing to do with your system, when in fact they do; your system would not exist on a vacuum).

Our problem is that your experiment fails at addressing the questions because it's at best a wild fucking guess. You're just trying shit, you're not conducting a proper experiment, and in so doing you can't really hope to get a meaningful result for your questions because the variables keep changing and there are no controls.

[Camicon]

Really it boils down to fundamentally basic questions...

1. What happens when kids are taxed?
2. What happens when kids can choose where their taxes go?
3. What happens when voting is replaced with spending?
4. What happens when quotes are auctioned?

Most of the members of this forum oppose coasianism and pragmatarianism. So they should suspect that bad things will happen when kids can choose where their taxes go and voting is replaced with spending. Or, they should suspect that better things will happen when kids can't choose where their taxes go and voting is not replaced with spending.

Personally, and obviously, I think the questions that I'm asking are very interesting. And it's fine if you don't think that they are interesting. Can you think of more interesting questions?

YES?

Then ask them and find a classroom to help you answer them

NO?

Then you and/or your parents should try and get a refund on your education

I would ask that you stop the academic snobbery, here. You're not doing yourself any favors by telling us that because we think your system is thoroughly exploitable, but we do not have any means to test it other than theoretical musings for many of us, that we should get a refund on our college education. For all I could care you're just some 18 year old high school graduate who just thought gambling was a good idea to run a country. So if you are going to compare academic achievements, don't. Because for the most part we can all wave our dicks around with our degrees and certifications and still come out on top of you.

Our problem is not that there is a lot of theory that we can discuss. And we have people learned in traditional economics and other fields to help you hammer those issues out (which you have utterly refused to address properly because you think they have nothing to do with your system, when in fact they do; your system would not exist on a vacuum).

Our problem is that your experiment fails at addressing the questions because it's at best a wild fucking guess. You're just trying shit, you're not conducting a proper experiment, and in so doing you can't really hope to get a meaningful result for your questions because the variables keep changing and there are no controls.

Besides which, a proper experiment would posit answers to those questions and provide a theoretical rationale for said answers. If you don't go in looking for something then you don't know what variables to control for, which ones to manipulate, or even what testing methodologies to use. The kind of "I wonder what happens when I do this" experiments that Xero seems so fond of are utterly useless for anything other than your own curiosity, or to demonstrate something that's been previously established.

[Xerographica]

Our problem is that your experiment fails at addressing the questions because it's at best a wild fucking guess. You're just trying shit, you're not conducting a proper experiment, and in so doing you can't really hope to get a meaningful result for your questions because the variables keep changing and there are no controls.

This is total and utter and complete BS. If the kids spend all their taxes on candy for the classroom are you really going to continue with your moronic argument that the results were not at all meaningful? Seriously?

Clearly you're biased against my ideal government. Clearly I'm biased for my ideal government. But if the kids do end up spending all their taxes on obviously dumb things... then I'm not stupid enough to let my personal bias get in the away of acknowledging that my experiment provides some evidence against my ideal government. The evidence won't be conclusive... but it was never meant to be.

The fact of the matter is that I'm testing my ideal government. I've never once argued that it's a perfect test. But it is a test. It's a test that can possibly provide meaningful, insightful, and interesting results.

If you want to conduct a perfect test, then please, by all means, knock yourself out. Show us all how it's done. Lead by example. If you're unable to conduct a perfect test... then please explain why.

"My name is Soldati Senza Confini and I can't conduct a perfect test because... I don't know any teachers. And, I don't know where a school is. And I can't think of any interesting questions. And... and... and... "

[Lost heros]

Really it boils down to fundamentally basic questions...

1. What happens when kids are taxed?
2. What happens when kids can choose where their taxes go?
3. What happens when voting is replaced with spending?
4. What happens when quotes are auctioned?

Most of the members of this forum oppose coasianism and pragmatarianism. So they should suspect that bad things will happen when kids can choose where their taxes go and voting is replaced with spending. Or, they should suspect that better things will happen when kids can't choose where their taxes go and voting is not replaced with spending.

Personally, and obviously, I think the questions that I'm asking are very interesting. And it's fine if you don't think that they are interesting. Can you think of more interesting questions?

YES?

Then ask them and find a classroom to help you answer them

NO?

Then you and/or your parents should try and get a refund on your education

"What happens?" is a horrible metric for defining the results of an experiment.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Our problem is that your experiment fails at addressing the questions because it's at best a wild fucking guess. You're just trying shit, you're not conducting a proper experiment, and in so doing you can't really hope to get a meaningful result for your questions because the variables keep changing and there are no controls.

This is total and utter and complete BS. If the kids spend all their taxes on candy for the classroom are you really going to continue with your moronic argument that the results were not at all meaningful? Seriously?

Clearly you're biased against my ideal government. Clearly I'm biased for my ideal government. But if the kids do end up spending all their taxes on obviously dumb things... then I'm not stupid enough to let my personal bias get in the away of acknowledging that my experiment provides some evidence against my ideal government. The evidence won't be conclusive... but it was never meant to be.

The fact of the matter is that I'm testing my ideal government. I've never once argued that it's a perfect test. But it is a test. It's a test that can possibly provide meaningful, insightful, and interesting results.

If you want to conduct a perfect test, then please, by all means, knock yourself out. Show us all how it's done. Lead by example. If you're unable to conduct a perfect test... then please explain why.

"My name is Soldati Senza Confini and I can't conduct a perfect test because... I don't know any teachers. And, I don't know where a school is. And I can't think of any interesting questions. And... and... and... "

Mockery doesn't suit you. You really don't want to go down that path with me, buddy, cause I got a lot of words, and I am not all that afraid to use them.

And I am not biased against your ideal form of government. I am skeptical of your ideal form of government working out as it should. Big difference. I have no need to believe your government will work as planned or to defend your ideal form of government or to support it and be its advocate. That falls on you, and I must say, you suck at doing that.

Also, yea, you're testing it, but you're not really doing any sort of experimentation to gain any meaningful results. There's no methodology, no procedure, no hypothesis. You just leapt in and over the rail and started doing shit. This is like saying Mengele's experiments are somehow useful for modern medical science when his results were all botched and therefore all shit, and unusable for medical research. People like you are the ones who set people who do real experiments up for derision among the common person. I've seen better sociology experiments than yours, guaran-fucking-teed.

I'm not able to conduct a perfect test because I'm not a deity. However, I can setup a better experiment plan than you that can be reproducible and falsifiable, and can actually provide meaningful results other than just "I'm gonna try this out guys, believe me it will be the greatest thing since peanut butter and jelly".

[Galloism]

This is total and utter and complete BS. If the kids spend all their taxes on candy for the classroom are you really going to continue with your moronic argument that the results were not at all meaningful? Seriously?

Clearly you're biased against my ideal government. Clearly I'm biased for my ideal government. But if the kids do end up spending all their taxes on obviously dumb things... then I'm not stupid enough to let my personal bias get in the away of acknowledging that my experiment provides some evidence against my ideal government. The evidence won't be conclusive... but it was never meant to be.

The fact of the matter is that I'm testing my ideal government. I've never once argued that it's a perfect test. But it is a test. It's a test that can possibly provide meaningful, insightful, and interesting results.

If you want to conduct a perfect test, then please, by all means, knock yourself out. Show us all how it's done. Lead by example. If you're unable to conduct a perfect test... then please explain why.

"My name is Soldati Senza Confini and I can't conduct a perfect test because... I don't know any teachers. And, I don't know where a school is. And I can't think of any interesting questions. And... and... and... "

Mockery doesn't suit you. You really don't want to go down that path with me, buddy, cause I got a lot of words, and I am not all that afraid to use them.

The best words?

;p

[Lost heros]

Our problem is that your experiment fails at addressing the questions because it's at best a wild fucking guess. You're just trying shit, you're not conducting a proper experiment, and in so doing you can't really hope to get a meaningful result for your questions because the variables keep changing and there are no controls.

This is total and utter and complete BS. If the kids spend all their taxes on candy for the classroom are you really going to continue with your moronic argument that the results were not at all meaningful? Seriously?

Clearly you're biased against my ideal government. Clearly I'm biased for my ideal government. But if the kids do end up spending all their taxes on obviously dumb things... then I'm not stupid enough to let my personal bias get in the away of acknowledging that my experiment provides some evidence against my ideal government. The evidence won't be conclusive... but it was never meant to be.

The fact of the matter is that I'm testing my ideal government. I've never once argued that it's a perfect test. But it is a test. It's a test that can possibly provide meaningful, insightful, and interesting results.

If you want to conduct a perfect test, then please, by all means, knock yourself out. Show us all how it's done. Lead by example. If you're unable to conduct a perfect test... then please explain why.

"My name is Soldati Senza Confini and I can't conduct a perfect test because... I don't know any teachers. And, I don't know where a school is. And I can't think of any interesting questions. And... and... and... "

I don't know about you, but I'd consider quotes to be an "obviously dumb thing", of course you don't, which again shows that this "experiment" has no real basis for results. I think that your fourth graders are going to do what the teachers tell them to do. "Spend money on voting" "Buy these worthless quotes" "Spend your 'taxes' on the school departments".

Your test is absolutely, completely, inherently pointless. You have no basis to measure success. You are inputting data into it knowingly. You are testing it on those who do not resemble an actual society. Not even going to mention that we've mathematically shown that your system just doesn't work and can be manipulated without the need for a test.

[Xerographica]

However, I can setup a better experiment plan than you that can be reproducible and falsifiable, and can actually provide meaningful results other than just "I'm gonna try this out guys, believe me it will be the greatest thing since peanut butter and jelly".

Are you going to actually do so? Or should we simply take your word for it?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Mockery doesn't suit you. You really don't want to go down that path with me, buddy, cause I got a lot of words, and I am not all that afraid to use them.

The best words?

;p

The very best there are

[Victoriala II]

Institute a fascist society and put all the nerds in the corner for subversion against the state

[Xerographica]

I don't know about you, but I'd consider quotes to be an "obviously dumb thing", of course you don't, which again shows that this "experiment" has no real basis for results. I think that your fourth graders are going to do what the teachers tell them to do. "Spend money on voting" "Buy these worthless quotes" "Spend your 'taxes' on the school departments".

You're arguing that Michelle is going to tell the kids what to spend their taxes on?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

However, I can setup a better experiment plan than you that can be reproducible and falsifiable, and can actually provide meaningful results other than just "I'm gonna try this out guys, believe me it will be the greatest thing since peanut butter and jelly".

Are you going to actually do so? Or should we simply take your word for it?

Give me time to come up with a specific question I want to know about your specific system, and how to go about providing the results.

I'm not gonna rush it because it's an experiment plan, not a fucking videogame that you can just pop up on an XBOX and play it.

[Lost heros]

I don't know about you, but I'd consider quotes to be an "obviously dumb thing", of course you don't, which again shows that this "experiment" has no real basis for results. I think that your fourth graders are going to do what the teachers tell them to do. "Spend money on voting" "Buy these worthless quotes" "Spend your 'taxes' on the school departments".

You're arguing that Michelle is going to tell the kids what to spend their taxes on?

No, I'm arguing that none of the kids are going to attempt to exploit the system. And aren't going to use it to their benefit even though they easily could.

[Lost heros]

Are you going to actually do so? Or should we simply take your word for it?

Give me time to come up with a specific question I want to know about your specific system, and how to go about providing the results.

I'm not gonna rush it because it's an experiment plan, not a fucking videogame that you can just pop up on an XBOX and play it.

I mean, we already have a better experiment in the works I believe. "How does the influence of hedging affect the distributions of bids in Xero's system" which Gallo I think is performing.