Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Venerable Bede]

It's a thin line for sure. A dangerous one, at that.

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

No, it's not like that at all, since they refer to victims killed because God is wrathful, wheread here victims are killed by the world's wrath. Christ tells us to rejoice here.

[Venerable Bede]

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

Exactly. We rejoice not that they were killed but that they didn't turn from the faith when threatened with being killed.

The Orthodox rejoice because Christ said rejoice when you are persecuted for his sake. Paul said those who do not suffer are not sons, but bastards.

[Angleter]

So I think I have what I want at my funeral Mass finalised. I'm going for a theme of that not being the end of the story and that where the Lord is, there is hope and life and strength, even when the body wears out in this life.

Processional hymn: Adoro Te Devote

From Isaiah 25:
On this mountain the LORD of hosts
will provide for all peoples.
On this mountain he will destroy
the veil that veils all peoples,
The web that is woven over all nations;
he will destroy death forever.
The Lord GOD will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.

On that day it will be said:
"Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us!
This is the LORD for whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

From Revelation 21:
I, John, saw a new heaven and a new earth.
The former heaven and the former earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more.
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race.
He will dwell with them and they will be his people
and God himself will always be with them as their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes,
and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain,
for the old order has passed away."

The One who sat on the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end.
To the thirsty I will give a gift
from the spring of life-giving water.
The victor will inherit these gifts,
and I shall be his God,
and he will be my son."

Psalm 42:
R/. My soul is thirsting for the living God: when shall I see him face to face?

As the hind longs for the running waters,
so my soul longs for you, O God. R/.

Athirst is my soul for God, the living God.
When shall I go and behold the face of God? R/.

I went with the throng and led them in procession
to the house of God.
Amid loud cries of joy and thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival. R/.

Send forth your light and your fidelity;
they shall lead me on
And bring me to your holy mountain,
to your dwelling-place. R/.

Then will I go in to the altar of God,
the God of my gladness and joy;
Then will I give you thanks upon the harp,
O God, my God! R/.

Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why do you sigh within me?
Hope in God! For I shall again be thanking him,
in the presence of my savior and my God. R/.

From Romans 5:
Brothers and sisters:
If, by the transgression of the one,
death came to reign through that one,
how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace
and of the gift of justification
come to reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.
In conclusion, just as through one transgression
condemnation came upon all,
so, through one righteous act,
acquittal and life came to all.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners,
so through the obedience of the one
the many will be made righteous.
The law entered in so that transgression might increase
but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that,
as sin reigned in death,
grace also might reign through justification for eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven,
says the Lord;
whoever eats this bread will live forever.

From John 6:
Jesus said to the crowds:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my Flesh
for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying,
"How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood,
you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
has eternal life,
and I will raise him on the last day.
For my Flesh is true food,
and my Blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me
and I have life because of the Father,
so also the one who feeds on me
will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven.
Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died,
whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Offertory hymn: I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Communion hymn: I Am the Bread of Life
Recessional hymn: we Will Rise Again

Can't fault your processional hymn, but I don't care for the next two, and the last one sounds--to me--like Disney.

Can you really customize your own funeral service?

I'm not sure about the readings or the propers. I don't think you could pre-1970. In the Novus Ordo it might be that you pick from a variety of Vatican-approved options, but that's just a guess on my part. You are now able to choose whether you want the liturgical colour to be white, purple, or the traditional black.

You'd be able to pick the hymns, since they don't form part of the ordo.

[Luminesa]

Already have.

Then you'll know he thought being killed for Christ's sake is a great triumph to be celebrated.

Yes. But that does not mean that the terrorists did something good. They committed a grave sin by killing innocent people and by desecrating a house of God. The martyrs should indeed be upraised as heroes for their bravery and for their faith in the face of death, but the terrorists should not be praised for their actions.

[Luminesa]

Exactly. We rejoice not that they were killed but that they didn't turn from the faith when threatened with being killed.

The Orthodox rejoice because Christ said rejoice when you are persecuted for his sake. Paul said those who do not suffer are not sons, but bastards.

Catholics say those things as well. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Beatitudes are suddenly exclusively understood by the Orthodox.

[Luminesa]

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

No, it's not like that at all, since they refer to victims killed because God is wrathful, wheread here victims are killed by the world's wrath. Christ tells us to rejoice here.

I was never saying it WAS like that. I'm just saying I personally would be more carefully in my wording. We are killed because the world hates us, but we should not thank the world for hating us. We should thank God for his love and mercy, in giving us strength through our struggles.

[Venerable Bede]

Then you'll know he thought being killed for Christ's sake is a great triumph to be celebrated.

Yes. But that does not mean that the terrorists did something good. They committed a grave sin by killing innocent people and by desecrating a house of God. The martyrs should indeed be upraised as heroes for their bravery and for their faith in the face of death, but the terrorists should not be praised for their actions.

Consequently, I beseech you, let us keep this in mind and no longer bear to hold a grudge against those who have done us an injury or otherwise wronged us in some way, nor be badly disposed towards them; instead, let us consider of how much kindness and confidence for us with the Lord they prove to be instruments, and before all else the fact that reconciliation with those who injure us turns out to be a discharge of our sins. Thus let us show all enthusiasm and effort, and out of consideration of the gain accruing from this let us display as much care of those who injure us as if they were really our benefactors.

-Saint John Chrysostom

[Pasong Tirad]

If you want to read about the similarities between Pope Francis and Beyoncé's views on marriage.

[Venerable Bede]

The Orthodox rejoice because Christ said rejoice when you are persecuted for his sake. Paul said those who do not suffer are not sons, but bastards.

Catholics say those things as well. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Beatitudes are suddenly exclusively understood by the Orthodox.

I have the idea that the Orthodox understanding of the Beatitudes is exclusively understood by the Orthodox.

[Constantinopolis]

Lumi and Bede, I have the idea that you actually agree on the substantive issue here and are merely disagreeing over semantics or the best way to phrase things.

[Venerable Bede]

Lumi and Bede, I have the idea that you actually agree on the substantive issue here and are merely disagreeing over semantics or the best way to phrase things.

That's pretty natural in Christian theology. :^)

[Lady Scylla]

So I think I have what I want at my funeral Mass finalised. I'm going for a theme of that not being the end of the story and that where the Lord is, there is hope and life and strength, even when the body wears out in this life.

Processional hymn: Adoro Te Devote

From Isaiah 25:
On this mountain the LORD of hosts
will provide for all peoples.
On this mountain he will destroy
the veil that veils all peoples,
The web that is woven over all nations;
he will destroy death forever.
The Lord GOD will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.

On that day it will be said:
"Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us!
This is the LORD for whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

From Revelation 21:
I, John, saw a new heaven and a new earth.
The former heaven and the former earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more.
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race.
He will dwell with them and they will be his people
and God himself will always be with them as their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes,
and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain,
for the old order has passed away."

The One who sat on the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end.
To the thirsty I will give a gift
from the spring of life-giving water.
The victor will inherit these gifts,
and I shall be his God,
and he will be my son."

Psalm 42:
R/. My soul is thirsting for the living God: when shall I see him face to face?

As the hind longs for the running waters,
so my soul longs for you, O God. R/.

Athirst is my soul for God, the living God.
When shall I go and behold the face of God? R/.

I went with the throng and led them in procession
to the house of God.
Amid loud cries of joy and thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival. R/.

Send forth your light and your fidelity;
they shall lead me on
And bring me to your holy mountain,
to your dwelling-place. R/.

Then will I go in to the altar of God,
the God of my gladness and joy;
Then will I give you thanks upon the harp,
O God, my God! R/.

Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why do you sigh within me?
Hope in God! For I shall again be thanking him,
in the presence of my savior and my God. R/.

From Romans 5:
Brothers and sisters:
If, by the transgression of the one,
death came to reign through that one,
how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace
and of the gift of justification
come to reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.
In conclusion, just as through one transgression
condemnation came upon all,
so, through one righteous act,
acquittal and life came to all.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners,
so through the obedience of the one
the many will be made righteous.
The law entered in so that transgression might increase
but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that,
as sin reigned in death,
grace also might reign through justification for eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven,
says the Lord;
whoever eats this bread will live forever.

From John 6:
Jesus said to the crowds:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my Flesh
for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying,
"How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood,
you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
has eternal life,
and I will raise him on the last day.
For my Flesh is true food,
and my Blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me
and I have life because of the Father,
so also the one who feeds on me
will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven.
Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died,
whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Offertory hymn: I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Communion hymn: I Am the Bread of Life
Recessional hymn: we Will Rise Again

Having a morbid day are we?

[Lady Scylla]

Already have.

Then you'll know he thought being killed for Christ's sake is a great triumph to be celebrated.

Christian jihad is nice this time of year I hear.

[Lady Scylla]

As the predicament goes: I prefer the path of the soldier, thanks. I'll take my limbo over damnation or harmony.

While Limbo is not a Catholic Doctrine, as it was conceived by medieval scholars, Limbo IS damnation. It's a place without hope, though by far the least painful of all the realms of perdition.

Sign me up, Scotty!

[Venerable Bede]

Then you'll know he thought being killed for Christ's sake is a great triumph to be celebrated.

Christian jihad is nice this time of year I hear.

Killing others in the process disqualifies you from martyrdom.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Having a morbid day are we?

No... Just trying to plan ahead so that my next-of-kin don't have to scramble at the last minute while still grieving should my day come unexpectedly.

[Constantinopolis]

Having a morbid day are we?

No... Just trying to plan ahead so that my next-of-kin don't have to scramble at the last minute while still grieving should my day come unexpectedly.

It is very good to think about one's own mortality, to remember that you will die and plan accordingly. The most important thing to be concerned with is your soul, of course, but planning the funeral ceremony can help with remembering death, so that is good too.

In other words, you did very well in making these plans!

[The Princes of the Universe]

No... Just trying to plan ahead so that my next-of-kin don't have to scramble at the last minute while still grieving should my day come unexpectedly.

It is very good to think about one's own mortality, to remember that you will die and plan accordingly. The most important thing to be concerned with is your soul, of course, but planning the funeral ceremony can help with remembering death, so that is good too.
In other words, you did very well in making these plans!

Dank je.

[Lady Scylla]

Having a morbid day are we?

No... Just trying to plan ahead so that my next-of-kin don't have to scramble at the last minute while still grieving should my day come unexpectedly.

I just want people to get drunk and party.

[Luminesa]

Christian jihad is nice this time of year I hear.

Killing others in the process disqualifies you from martyrdom.

So a Christian soldier goes to war, kills a group of enemies while defending his friends. Gets captured by ISIS in the process. Is told to deny his faith or die. He refuses to deny his faith and is beheaded. Martyr or no?

[Lady Scylla]

Killing others in the process disqualifies you from martyrdom.

So a Christian soldier goes to war, kills a group of enemies while defending his friends. Gets captured by ISIS in the process. Is told to deny his faith or die. He refuses to deny his faith and is beheaded. Martyr or no?

Seems the Church is passing out sainthood and martyrdom like candy these days.

[Diopolis]

Killing others in the process disqualifies you from martyrdom.

So a Christian soldier goes to war, kills a group of enemies while defending his friends. Gets captured by ISIS in the process. Is told to deny his faith or die. He refuses to deny his faith and is beheaded. Martyr or no?

We have a rather large number of martyrs who died in the Christero wars, protecting the Catholic faithful.

[Auristania]

So a Christian soldier goes to war, kills a group of enemies while defending his friends. Gets captured by ISIS in the process. Is told to deny his faith or die. He refuses to deny his faith and is beheaded. Martyr or no?

Seems the Church is passing out sainthood and martyrdom like candy these days.

Seems the terrorism is passing out martyrdom like candy theses days.

[Nordengrund]

No... Just trying to plan ahead so that my next-of-kin don't have to scramble at the last minute while still grieving should my day come unexpectedly.

It is very good to think about one's own mortality, to remember that you will die and plan accordingly. The most important thing to be concerned with is your soul, of course, but planning the funeral ceremony can help with remembering death, so that is good too.

In other words, you did very well in making these plans!

I don't have any plans other than for my kin to do whatever they can afford. I wouldn't mind being cremated., but neither would I mind being buried. I don't care as long as they rid my corpse in a respectful manner.

[Venerable Bede]

Killing others in the process disqualifies you from martyrdom.

So a Christian soldier goes to war, kills a group of enemies while defending his friends. Gets captured by ISIS in the process. Is told to deny his faith or die. He refuses to deny his faith and is beheaded. Martyr or no?

Yes, in that case. But such cases are rare. For instance. Yevgeny Rodionov is popularly held as a martyr due to just such a death, but he isn't canonized because that probably wasn't the case.