Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

So, I'm a little late to the party here on the CDT, because it has been a very busy day for me in real life. Still, the day isn't over yet (at least in the time zone where I am now), so I will add my voice to the great chorus of those saying:

Christ is risen!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
!المسيح قام
Христос Воскресе!
Hristos a înviat!
ქრისტე აღსდგა!
Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
Krishti u ngjall!
Kristus vstal z mrtvých!

Le Christ est ressuscité!
¡Cristo ha resucitado!
基督復活了!

(Image)

This is the Feast of Feasts, the Day of Resurrection, the New Passover, the greatest celebration of the Christian faith, the most important holiday of the year, the central focus of Orthodox liturgical life. This is the Lord's Pascha (Easter), and all other feasts revolve around it. This is the day when we celebrate the victory of Life over Death. Just as the Old Passover marked the liberation of the Old Israel (the Jewish people) from physical slavery in Egypt, the New Passover marks the liberation of the New Israel (the Christian people) from the spiritual slavery of sin. In the Old Covenant, Moses led his people out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. In the New Covenant, Christ leads His people out of Sheol (Hades) and into Heaven. Moses defeated the earthly power of Pharaoh; Christ defeats the spiritual power of Satan.

Through the death and resurrection of Christ, death itself is put to death. The gates of Sheol (Hades) are smashed, and the gates of Paradise are opened for the first time since the Fall of Adam. Christ is both the High Priest, and the Sacrificial Lamb offered on the altar. On the Cross, He offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the salvation of all. After death, His soul descended to Sheol (Hades), the realm of the dead, where the souls of all dead human beings had been trapped since the Fall of Man. Christ went there just as they did, because He was a man like them, fully human.

But He was not only fully human, He was also fully God. So He went down to Sheol, but when He arrived, God Himself arrived in the land of the dead - the realm which had previously been a place of separation from God. Therefore, the separation was abolished, and the radiant presence of God filled the land of the dead, and Sheol ceased to exist. From that day, all the dead were brought into the presence of God. For those who embraced it or will embrace it, this presence of God is called Heaven, and for those who reject it, it is called Hell.

Having done this, having brought all the righteous departed souls of the Old Testament into Heaven, the soul of Christ then returned to His body, and He rose from the dead, to announce and prefigure the future Bodily Resurrection of all the dead, which will happen at His Second Coming. For the moment, the souls of the dead do not have their bodies, but this situation is abnormal and temporary. To be a complete human being is to have a body as well as a soul. Therefore Christ returned to His body, and later ascended into Heaven in the body. And all the dead will be resurrected like Him and will be given new bodies before the Last Judgment.

Thus, rejoicing in the victory of Christ over death and sin, let us all sing:

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
(Paschal Troparion)

There are many YouTube videos of Paschal hymns (some of them sung by professional choirs, others by average parish choirs), but here is a selection of some of my favourite ones:

Do Not Lament Me, O Mother (from the Paschal Nocturns; i.e. the first part of the Resurrection service. The video does a good job of conveying the atmosphere, as the church is kept dark and lit only by a few candles at this stage)
The Paschal Stichera ("Let God Arise"), probably my favourite hymn of all, sung by a parish choir
The Paschal Stichera ("Let God Arise"), same hymn as above, but sung by a professional choir - in my opinion this is the best performance on this list
The Paschal Canon ("It is the Day of Resurrection") in Greek and Slavonic (I couldn't find a complete English version on YouTube)
The Angel Cried (professional choir)
Some highlights of the Paschal service at a church in the US
Paschal Troparion repeatedly sung at the end of the Liturgy, first in English with different melodies, then in other languages
Paschal Troparion in many different languages, part 1
Paschal Troparion in many different languages, part 2

And finally, I would like to post the full text of the Paschal sermon of St. John Chrysostom, which is read every year during the Paschal service in place of having the parish priest deliver a regular sermon of his own. It really is absolutely brilliant:

If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; he gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.

And he shows mercy upon the last, and cares for the first; and to the one he gives, and upon the other he bestows gifts. And he both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honors the acts and praises the offering. Therefore, enter you all into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first, and likewise the second. You rich and poor together, hold high festival. You sober and you heedless, honor the day. Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast sumptuously, all of you. The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.

Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. Let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave!
For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

Two questions.
First question, where does it say that were are to be given new bodies? The bible has said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

It has said that we will be as the angels are in heaven.Matt22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

It has said that Revelation 21:1-7

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

there is a new heaven and a new earth but makes no mention of us being in our current flesh and blood form. It says that those who take part in the first resurrection will be priests of Christ and Yahweh but it says that they are still souls not in this bodily form. Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those of second resurrection are judged and sent to either Heaven or the lake of fire since hell and death have been cast into the lake of fire, but it make no mention here either of anyone of them getting their earthy flesh and blood body back. Revelation 20:11-15

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But I might have missed it somewhere. Could you point out where in the bible it says we are to get a new body and not simply be souls? And again it must be out of the bible, not from any other writings.
Question number 2.
"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave!"
How can not one dead remain in the grave after Christ's resurrection when in Revelation it shows that all that have died are still sleeping, and that during the first resurrection those who have died for Christ and for the word of Yahweh are raised up from their sleep in the hell. Then during the second resurrection all who are dead and in hell and in the sea are taken up for judgment along with all those that are still living and then death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-6 Revelation 20:11-15
So please explain to me how this can be possible. Again, using exact quotes from the bible.

I await your reply

If IIRC "and not one dead remains in the grave" is a poetic way of saying Christ's tomb was empty, (no cadavers were in the tomb) not that all the graves of the world are empty.

[Lady Scylla]

I can own up to being vengeful. Bad? Hardly. I treat my friends like family, and I love them very dearly. But anyone that hurts them, or betrays my trust deserves nothing but wrath. 'Turn the other cheek' sounds all well and good unless you've been put in situations like that over and over again. My patience with people that seek to lie, hurt, or otherwise be malicious towards me or those I care about is remarkably thin.

I'm glad Christ has much more tolerance.

God forgives us, even though we falter every day. People that rage against God all their life are still loved by Him, the gift of grace only needs to be accepted. Since Christ did this, Christians should try to be forgiving as well. We must not only have a lot of patience, but forgive 77 times (figurative language for forever).

I'll remember to tolerate and forgive my rapist next time.

[Venerable Bede]

I'll pass.

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

He's not one of our saints. Catholic theology is a lot different from ours regarding that sort of thing, for us it very much DOES mean letting people get away with harming you, without taking reprisal. Reprisal is a sin. If someone robs you, even reporting them to the police is technically a sin, for you are disregarding Christ's injunction that if someone takes your shirt, offer him your cloak as well. It isn't even just usury that is a sin: so much as asking for your money back is. Forgive those in your debt, else God will not forgive your debts, and debts here mean violence as well.

I'm not saying everyone is capable of this, but it's the more of Orthodox saints, which we are all called to have.

[Venerable Bede]

Even the evil love their friends; goodness is to love your enemies.

I'll pass.

Now. But you have a saint in you, like the elephant in the stone; we all do. Whether or not you, through grace, chisel away your saint and let her shine forth, only time will tell.

[Venerable Bede]

That's a weird thing to do.

Same...I personally would not use such a topic, in a sermon about the importance of worship.

As I just said, Catholic sentiment is a lot different from ours on this sort of thing. This for us shows us that worship is not free, but comes at the cost of the blood of all those who died for Christianity (with Christ's death as paramount, of course). It is very valuable. These martyrs were killed in worship.

[Luminesa]

Same...I personally would not use such a topic, in a sermon about the importance of worship.

As I just said, Catholic sentiment is a lot different from ours on this sort of thing. This for us shows us that worship is not free, but comes at the cost of the blood of all those who died for Christianity (with Christ's death as paramount, of course). It is very valuable. These martyrs were killed in worship.

I mean, I believe and understand the statement that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church", but I just would have worded it a little more carefully.

[Lady Scylla]

As I just said, Catholic sentiment is a lot different from ours on this sort of thing. This for us shows us that worship is not free, but comes at the cost of the blood of all those who died for Christianity (with Christ's death as paramount, of course). It is very valuable. These martyrs were killed in worship.

I mean, I believe and understand the statement that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church", but I just would have worded it a little more carefully.

It's a thin line for sure. A dangerous one, at that.

[Lady Scylla]

I'll pass.

Now. But you have a saint in you, like the elephant in the stone; we all do. Whether or not you, through grace, chisel away your saint and let her shine forth, only time will tell.

As the predicament goes: I prefer the path of the soldier, thanks. I'll take my limbo over damnation or harmony.

[Constantinopolis]

Two questions.
First question, where does it say that were are to be given new bodies? The bible has said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

It has said that we will be as the angels are in heaven.Matt22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

It has said that Revelation 21:1-7

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

there is a new heaven and a new earth but makes no mention of us being in our current flesh and blood form. It says that those who take part in the first resurrection will be priests of Christ and Yahweh but it says that they are still souls not in this bodily form. Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those of second resurrection are judged and sent to either Heaven or the lake of fire since hell and death have been cast into the lake of fire, but it make no mention here either of anyone of them getting their earthy flesh and blood body back. Revelation 20:11-15

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But I might have missed it somewhere. Could you point out where in the bible it says we are to get a new body and not simply be souls? And again it must be out of the bible, not from any other writings.

Some of those references are in your own quotes. For example 1 Corinthians 15:52 - "the dead shall be raised incorruptible". What does "raised" mean? The dead are already disembodied souls. To say that they will be "raised" is to say that they will not remain this way. Or take all the other numerous references in the Bible to the resurrection of the dead. What does it mean? If the souls of the dead simply remain as they are after they died, and nothing else ever changes for them, how can there be a "resurrection of the dead"? It is made very clear that the dead will not remain as they are now. Something will change about their status. They will be "resurrected". What else can this mean, if not the fact that they will get new bodies?

We can see this from the resurrection of Lazarus, and the resurrection of Christ Himself. What happened to them? They came back to life, physically, in physical bodies. Every time someone is "resurrected" or "raised from the dead" in the Bible, they come back physically, in a physical body. This is what the word "resurrection" means.

So, for us, the Biblical evidence that the dead will receive new bodies is every time the Bible says that the dead will be resurrected, or "raised". That is simply what those words mean.

Of course, the new bodies in question may not be the same kind of bodies as we have now. They may not be "flesh and blood" in some sense. But they will be physical - able to walk around and touch things and so on. Specifically, we believe that the resurrected bodies will have the same characteristics as the body of Christ after His Resurrection. Notice that He makes a point out of proving that He is physical and not merely a ghost (Luke 24:38-43 and John 20:26-29). Then, later, He ascends to Heaven, complete with His body.

Question number 2.
"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave!"
How can not one dead remain in the grave after Christ's resurrection when in Revelation it shows that all that have died are still sleeping, and that during the first resurrection those who have died for Christ and for the word of Yahweh are raised up from their sleep in the hell. Then during the second resurrection all who are dead and in hell and in the sea are taken up for judgment along with all those that are still living and then death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-6 Revelation 20:11-15
So please explain to me how this can be possible. Again, using exact quotes from the bible.

I await your reply

In the Orthodox Church, the past and present and future things done by God are often referred to in the same tense. It is a poetic way of saying that the past, present and future are all the same to God. Every Sunday, in the Divine Liturgy, during the prayers of the anaphora, the priest mentions a list of things that Jesus Christ "has done for us", and this list includes the Second Coming. We talk about the future as if it has already happened. And in the prayers for the celebration of many Great Feasts, we often say, "today Christ does X", as if it's happening right now, and not in the past. St. John Chrysostom is doing the same thing in his sermon.

God is beyond time.

[Pasong Tirad]

In the Orthodox Church, the past and present and future things done by God are often referred to in the same tense. It is a poetic way of saying that the past, present and future are all the same to God. Every Sunday, in the Divine Liturgy, during the prayers of the anaphora, the priest mentions a list of things that Jesus Christ "has done for us", and this list includes the Second Coming. We talk about the future as if it has already happened. And in the prayers for the celebration of many Great Feasts, we often say, "today Christ does X", as if it's happening right now, and not in the past. St. John Chrysostom is doing the same thing in his sermon.

God is beyond time.

Precisely why we can all hold mass at different times, in Manila, in Moscow, in London and in New York, celebrating Christ rising and it will still hold the same amount of weight (for lack of a better way of phrasing it). Christ is risen now, regardless of whatever your time zone.

[Lady Scylla]

In the Orthodox Church, the past and present and future things done by God are often referred to in the same tense. It is a poetic way of saying that the past, present and future are all the same to God. Every Sunday, in the Divine Liturgy, during the prayers of the anaphora, the priest mentions a list of things that Jesus Christ "has done for us", and this list includes the Second Coming. We talk about the future as if it has already happened. And in the prayers for the celebration of many Great Feasts, we often say, "today Christ does X", as if it's happening right now, and not in the past. St. John Chrysostom is doing the same thing in his sermon.

God is beyond time.

Precisely why we can all hold mass at different times, in Manila, in Moscow, in London and in New York, celebrating Christ rising and it will still hold the same amount of weight (for lack of a better way of phrasing it). Christ is risen now, regardless of whatever your time zone.

That's not because of God. That's just simple physics.

[New Visayan Islands]

Same...I personally would not use such a topic, in a sermon about the importance of worship.

As I just said, Catholic sentiment is a lot different from ours on this sort of thing. This for us shows us that worship is not free, but comes at the cost of the blood of all those who died for Christianity (with Christ's death as paramount, of course). It is very valuable. These martyrs were killed in worship.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Christianity survived two millennia with powerful enemies in every quarter, from the Roman Empire to the Soviet Union; we will endure all the way to the Day of Wrath. That He promised.

[Venerable Bede]

As I just said, Catholic sentiment is a lot different from ours on this sort of thing. This for us shows us that worship is not free, but comes at the cost of the blood of all those who died for Christianity (with Christ's death as paramount, of course). It is very valuable. These martyrs were killed in worship.

I mean, I believe and understand the statement that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church", but I just would have worded it a little more carefully.

Then you might try reading Ignatius of Antioch.

[Venerable Bede]

Now. But you have a saint in you, like the elephant in the stone; we all do. Whether or not you, through grace, chisel away your saint and let her shine forth, only time will tell.

As the predicament goes: I prefer the path of the soldier, thanks. I'll take my limbo over damnation or harmony.

We don't believe in limbo. :^)

[The Princes of the Universe]

So I think I have what I want at my funeral Mass finalised. I'm going for a theme of that not being the end of the story and that where the Lord is, there is hope and life and strength, even when the body wears out in this life.

Processional hymn: Adoro Te Devote

From Isaiah 25:
On this mountain the LORD of hosts
will provide for all peoples.
On this mountain he will destroy
the veil that veils all peoples,
The web that is woven over all nations;
he will destroy death forever.
The Lord GOD will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.

On that day it will be said:
"Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us!
This is the LORD for whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

From Revelation 21:
I, John, saw a new heaven and a new earth.
The former heaven and the former earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more.
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race.
He will dwell with them and they will be his people
and God himself will always be with them as their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes,
and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain,
for the old order has passed away."

The One who sat on the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end.
To the thirsty I will give a gift
from the spring of life-giving water.
The victor will inherit these gifts,
and I shall be his God,
and he will be my son."

Psalm 42:
R/. My soul is thirsting for the living God: when shall I see him face to face?

As the hind longs for the running waters,
so my soul longs for you, O God. R/.

Athirst is my soul for God, the living God.
When shall I go and behold the face of God? R/.

I went with the throng and led them in procession
to the house of God.
Amid loud cries of joy and thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival. R/.

Send forth your light and your fidelity;
they shall lead me on
And bring me to your holy mountain,
to your dwelling-place. R/.

Then will I go in to the altar of God,
the God of my gladness and joy;
Then will I give you thanks upon the harp,
O God, my God! R/.

Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why do you sigh within me?
Hope in God! For I shall again be thanking him,
in the presence of my savior and my God. R/.

From Romans 5:
Brothers and sisters:
If, by the transgression of the one,
death came to reign through that one,
how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace
and of the gift of justification
come to reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.
In conclusion, just as through one transgression
condemnation came upon all,
so, through one righteous act,
acquittal and life came to all.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners,
so through the obedience of the one
the many will be made righteous.
The law entered in so that transgression might increase
but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that,
as sin reigned in death,
grace also might reign through justification for eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven,
says the Lord;
whoever eats this bread will live forever.

From John 6:
Jesus said to the crowds:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my Flesh
for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying,
"How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood,
you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
has eternal life,
and I will raise him on the last day.
For my Flesh is true food,
and my Blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me
and I have life because of the Father,
so also the one who feeds on me
will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven.
Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died,
whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Offertory hymn: I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Communion hymn: I Am the Bread of Life
Recessional hymn: we Will Rise Again

[The Holy Empire of the Spaghetti Monster]

So I think I have what I want at my funeral Mass finalised. I'm going for a theme of that not being the end of the story and that where the Lord is, there is hope and life and strength, even when the body wears out in this life.

Processional hymn: Adoro Te Devote

From Isaiah 25:
On this mountain the LORD of hosts
will provide for all peoples.
On this mountain he will destroy
the veil that veils all peoples,
The web that is woven over all nations;
he will destroy death forever.
The Lord GOD will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.

On that day it will be said:
"Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us!
This is the LORD for whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

From Revelation 21:
I, John, saw a new heaven and a new earth.
The former heaven and the former earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more.
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race.
He will dwell with them and they will be his people
and God himself will always be with them as their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes,
and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain,
for the old order has passed away."

The One who sat on the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end.
To the thirsty I will give a gift
from the spring of life-giving water.
The victor will inherit these gifts,
and I shall be his God,
and he will be my son."

Psalm 42:
R/. My soul is thirsting for the living God: when shall I see him face to face?

As the hind longs for the running waters,
so my soul longs for you, O God. R/.

Athirst is my soul for God, the living God.
When shall I go and behold the face of God? R/.

I went with the throng and led them in procession
to the house of God.
Amid loud cries of joy and thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival. R/.

Send forth your light and your fidelity;
they shall lead me on
And bring me to your holy mountain,
to your dwelling-place. R/.

Then will I go in to the altar of God,
the God of my gladness and joy;
Then will I give you thanks upon the harp,
O God, my God! R/.

Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why do you sigh within me?
Hope in God! For I shall again be thanking him,
in the presence of my savior and my God. R/.

From Romans 5:
Brothers and sisters:
If, by the transgression of the one,
death came to reign through that one,
how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace
and of the gift of justification
come to reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.
In conclusion, just as through one transgression
condemnation came upon all,
so, through one righteous act,
acquittal and life came to all.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners,
so through the obedience of the one
the many will be made righteous.
The law entered in so that transgression might increase
but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that,
as sin reigned in death,
grace also might reign through justification for eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven,
says the Lord;
whoever eats this bread will live forever.

From John 6:
Jesus said to the crowds:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my Flesh
for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying,
"How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood,
you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
has eternal life,
and I will raise him on the last day.
For my Flesh is true food,
and my Blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me
and I have life because of the Father,
so also the one who feeds on me
will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven.
Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died,
whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Offertory hymn: I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Communion hymn: I Am the Bread of Life
Recessional hymn: we Will Rise Again

Let's hope this doesn't come up for a long, long time...

[Venerable Bede]

So I think I have what I want at my funeral Mass finalised. I'm going for a theme of that not being the end of the story and that where the Lord is, there is hope and life and strength, even when the body wears out in this life.

Processional hymn: Adoro Te Devote

From Isaiah 25:
On this mountain the LORD of hosts
will provide for all peoples.
On this mountain he will destroy
the veil that veils all peoples,
The web that is woven over all nations;
he will destroy death forever.
The Lord GOD will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.

On that day it will be said:
"Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us!
This is the LORD for whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

From Revelation 21:
I, John, saw a new heaven and a new earth.
The former heaven and the former earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more.
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race.
He will dwell with them and they will be his people
and God himself will always be with them as their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes,
and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain,
for the old order has passed away."

The One who sat on the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end.
To the thirsty I will give a gift
from the spring of life-giving water.
The victor will inherit these gifts,
and I shall be his God,
and he will be my son."

Psalm 42:
R/. My soul is thirsting for the living God: when shall I see him face to face?

As the hind longs for the running waters,
so my soul longs for you, O God. R/.

Athirst is my soul for God, the living God.
When shall I go and behold the face of God? R/.

I went with the throng and led them in procession
to the house of God.
Amid loud cries of joy and thanksgiving,
with the multitude keeping festival. R/.

Send forth your light and your fidelity;
they shall lead me on
And bring me to your holy mountain,
to your dwelling-place. R/.

Then will I go in to the altar of God,
the God of my gladness and joy;
Then will I give you thanks upon the harp,
O God, my God! R/.

Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why do you sigh within me?
Hope in God! For I shall again be thanking him,
in the presence of my savior and my God. R/.

From Romans 5:
Brothers and sisters:
If, by the transgression of the one,
death came to reign through that one,
how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace
and of the gift of justification
come to reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.
In conclusion, just as through one transgression
condemnation came upon all,
so, through one righteous act,
acquittal and life came to all.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners,
so through the obedience of the one
the many will be made righteous.
The law entered in so that transgression might increase
but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that,
as sin reigned in death,
grace also might reign through justification for eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 6:51 - I am the living bread that came down from heaven,
says the Lord;
whoever eats this bread will live forever.

From John 6:
Jesus said to the crowds:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my Flesh
for the life of the world."

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying,
"How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood,
you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
has eternal life,
and I will raise him on the last day.
For my Flesh is true food,
and my Blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood
remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me
and I have life because of the Father,
so also the one who feeds on me
will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven.
Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died,
whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Offertory hymn: I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Communion hymn: I Am the Bread of Life
Recessional hymn: we Will Rise Again

Can't fault your processional hymn, but I don't care for the next two, and the last one sounds--to me--like Disney.

Can you really customize your own funeral service?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Now. But you have a saint in you, like the elephant in the stone; we all do. Whether or not you, through grace, chisel away your saint and let her shine forth, only time will tell.

As the predicament goes: I prefer the path of the soldier, thanks. I'll take my limbo over damnation or harmony.

While Limbo is not a Catholic Doctrine, as it was conceived by medieval scholars, Limbo IS damnation. It's a place without hope, though by far the least painful of all the realms of perdition.

[Venerable Bede]

TS, how do you feel about the soteriology presented in De incarnatione?

[The Princes of the Universe]

Let's hope this doesn't come up for a long, long time...

Worry not, my dear Pasta-chan... I don't plan on needing it any time within the next 10 years.

Can't fault your processional hymn, but I don't care for the next two, and the last one sounds--to me--like Disney.

I was originally going to have the offertory as the recessional, but I figured something that could be played a bit faster would be a better way to close it.

Can you really customize your own funeral service?

As far as I know, which I'll admit isn't terribly far.

[Luminesa]

I mean, I believe and understand the statement that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church", but I just would have worded it a little more carefully.

Then you might try reading Ignatius of Antioch.

Already have.

[Luminesa]

I mean, I believe and understand the statement that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church", but I just would have worded it a little more carefully.

It's a thin line for sure. A dangerous one, at that.

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

[The Princes of the Universe]

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

Exactly. We rejoice not that they were killed but that they didn't turn from the faith when threatened with being killed.

[Caliphate of the Netherlands]

You don't want to make it look like it was a good thing they were killed, ala the Westboro Baptists' "THANK GOD FOR DEAD PEOPLE" and stuff.

Exactly. We rejoice not that they were killed but that they didn't turn from the faith when threatened with being killed.

I think that is pretty obvious for others

[Venerable Bede]

Then you might try reading Ignatius of Antioch.

Already have.

Then you'll know he thought being killed for Christ's sake is a great triumph to be celebrated.