Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Dylar]

That's the Great Synthesis, or that in which all of the law and prophets' teachings can be boiled down to.

Jesus didn't change anything by saying this.

so if I eat pork I've committed a sin?

Nope.

9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

[Eli Islands]

so if I eat pork I've committed a sin?

Nope.

9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

that was a rhetorical question and that conversation/argument ended yesterday.

[Dylar]

Nope.

that was a rhetorical question and that conversation/argument ended yesterday.

Oh. Guess that's what happens when you don't get on NS over the weekend...

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Nope.

that was a rhetorical question and that conversation/argument ended yesterday.

[Lady Scylla]

Christ is risen!

Our priest quoted from a wonderful Coptic homily this Pascha, about the Palm Sunday bombings, and in it the Coptic priest thanked the bombers for reminding the Orthodox of the importantance of worship, and there are enemies both seen and unseen who want desperately to stop us. He also said "I love you" to the bombers.

Joy for this feast of all feasts! Exit the sorrow for sins, enter the joy of victory and forgiveness!

That's a weird thing to do.

[Lady Scylla]

He is truly risen!


May the Palm Sunday martyrs watch after us...

In a world hungering for revenge, may we always turn the other cheek.

That's no fun.

[Salus Maior]

In a world hungering for revenge, may we always turn the other cheek.

That's no fun.

Eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.

Someone has to be the bigger person eventually.

[Venerable Bede]

Christ is risen!

Our priest quoted from a wonderful Coptic homily this Pascha, about the Palm Sunday bombings, and in it the Coptic priest thanked the bombers for reminding the Orthodox of the importantance of worship, and there are enemies both seen and unseen who want desperately to stop us. He also said "I love you" to the bombers.

Joy for this feast of all feasts! Exit the sorrow for sins, enter the joy of victory and forgiveness!

That's a weird thing to do.

Christianity is weird for the world! And always was!

[Lady Scylla]

That's no fun.

Eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.

Someone has to be the bigger person eventually.

Eye for a head sounds better, IMO. Someone backstabs you, destroy them.

[Venerable Bede]

Eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.

Someone has to be the bigger person eventually.

Eye for a head sounds better, IMO. Someone backstabs you, destroy them.

In exchange for the blessings and joy that come with not requiting violence out of reverence for Christ's image in your enemy, and Christ's operation in yourself? That's like Esau selling his inheritence for a bowl of lentils.

[Lady Scylla]

Eye for a head sounds better, IMO. Someone backstabs you, destroy them.

In exchange for the blessings and joy that come with not requiting violence out of reverence for Christ's image in your enemy, and Christ's operation in yourself? That's like Esau selling his inheritence for a bowl of lentils.

I'm not one for seeing 'Christ's image' in my enemies. I do have patience though.

[Venerable Bede]

In exchange for the blessings and joy that come with not requiting violence out of reverence for Christ's image in your enemy, and Christ's operation in yourself? That's like Esau selling his inheritence for a bowl of lentils.

I'm not one for seeing 'Christ's image' in my enemies. I do have patience though.

Even the evil love their friends; goodness is to love your enemies.

[Lady Scylla]

I'm not one for seeing 'Christ's image' in my enemies. I do have patience though.

Even the evil love their friends; goodness is to love your enemies.

I'll pass.

[Luminesa]

Christ is risen!

Our priest quoted from a wonderful Coptic homily this Pascha, about the Palm Sunday bombings, and in it the Coptic priest thanked the bombers for reminding the Orthodox of the importantance of worship, and there are enemies both seen and unseen who want desperately to stop us. He also said "I love you" to the bombers.

Joy for this feast of all feasts! Exit the sorrow for sins, enter the joy of victory and forgiveness!

That's a weird thing to do.

Same...I personally would not use such a topic, in a sermon about the importance of worship.

[Pasong Tirad]

Even the evil love their friends; goodness is to love your enemies.

I'll pass.

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

[Salus Maior]

Eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.

Someone has to be the bigger person eventually.

Eye for a head sounds better, IMO. Someone backstabs you, destroy them.

One takes an eye, another takes a head, someone comes back and takes more in return, etc etc.

Sounds like the post-apocalypse really.

[Dylar]

I'll pass.

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

Saint Pope John Paul II. But you can call him Saint JP II for short.

[Lady Scylla]

I'll pass.

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

Um, no. I mean, cross me, and I want absolute hell on them and nothing else.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

Um, no. I mean, cross me, and I want absolute hell on them and nothing else.

Because you evidently want to be a vengeful and bad person? Really, I don't see what the point behind that is besides just being mean-spirited.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I'll pass.

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

Just Saint.

Also didn't that guy die? I vaguely recall him being crushed to death by the crowds

[United Muscovite Nations]

You may be confusing "loving your enemy" with "letting them get away with the bad things they did." Even the would-be assassin of Saint Pope (or is it Pope Saint?) John Paul II was arrested.

Just Saint.

Also didn't that guy die? I vaguely recall him being crushed to death by the crowds

No, he's in jail harping about conspiracy theories that the Bulgarians brainwashed him to do it. John Paul II actually visited him in prison a few times.

[Lady Scylla]

Um, no. I mean, cross me, and I want absolute hell on them and nothing else.

Because you evidently want to be a vengeful and bad person? Really, I don't see what the point behind that is besides just being mean-spirited.

I can own up to being vengeful. Bad? Hardly. I treat my friends like family, and I love them very dearly. But anyone that hurts them, or betrays my trust deserves nothing but wrath. 'Turn the other cheek' sounds all well and good unless you've been put in situations like that over and over again. My patience with people that seek to lie, hurt, or otherwise be malicious towards me or those I care about is remarkably thin.

[Hakons]

Because you evidently want to be a vengeful and bad person? Really, I don't see what the point behind that is besides just being mean-spirited.

I can own up to being vengeful. Bad? Hardly. I treat my friends like family, and I love them very dearly. But anyone that hurts them, or betrays my trust deserves nothing but wrath. 'Turn the other cheek' sounds all well and good unless you've been put in situations like that over and over again. My patience with people that seek to lie, hurt, or otherwise be malicious towards me or those I care about is remarkably thin.

I'm glad Christ has much more tolerance.

God forgives us, even though we falter every day. People that rage against God all their life are still loved by Him, the gift of grace only needs to be accepted. Since Christ did this, Christians should try to be forgiving as well. We must not only have a lot of patience, but forgive 77 times (figurative language for forever).

[ThePeacekeepers]

So, I'm a little late to the party here on the CDT, because it has been a very busy day for me in real life. Still, the day isn't over yet (at least in the time zone where I am now), so I will add my voice to the great chorus of those saying:

Christ is risen!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
!المسيح قام
Христос Воскресе!
Hristos a înviat!
ქრისტე აღსდგა!
Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
Krishti u ngjall!
Kristus vstal z mrtvých!

Le Christ est ressuscité!
¡Cristo ha resucitado!
基督復活了!

(Image)

This is the Feast of Feasts, the Day of Resurrection, the New Passover, the greatest celebration of the Christian faith, the most important holiday of the year, the central focus of Orthodox liturgical life. This is the Lord's Pascha (Easter), and all other feasts revolve around it. This is the day when we celebrate the victory of Life over Death. Just as the Old Passover marked the liberation of the Old Israel (the Jewish people) from physical slavery in Egypt, the New Passover marks the liberation of the New Israel (the Christian people) from the spiritual slavery of sin. In the Old Covenant, Moses led his people out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. In the New Covenant, Christ leads His people out of Sheol (Hades) and into Heaven. Moses defeated the earthly power of Pharaoh; Christ defeats the spiritual power of Satan.

Through the death and resurrection of Christ, death itself is put to death. The gates of Sheol (Hades) are smashed, and the gates of Paradise are opened for the first time since the Fall of Adam. Christ is both the High Priest, and the Sacrificial Lamb offered on the altar. On the Cross, He offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the salvation of all. After death, His soul descended to Sheol (Hades), the realm of the dead, where the souls of all dead human beings had been trapped since the Fall of Man. Christ went there just as they did, because He was a man like them, fully human.

But He was not only fully human, He was also fully God. So He went down to Sheol, but when He arrived, God Himself arrived in the land of the dead - the realm which had previously been a place of separation from God. Therefore, the separation was abolished, and the radiant presence of God filled the land of the dead, and Sheol ceased to exist. From that day, all the dead were brought into the presence of God. For those who embraced it or will embrace it, this presence of God is called Heaven, and for those who reject it, it is called Hell.

Having done this, having brought all the righteous departed souls of the Old Testament into Heaven, the soul of Christ then returned to His body, and He rose from the dead, to announce and prefigure the future Bodily Resurrection of all the dead, which will happen at His Second Coming. For the moment, the souls of the dead do not have their bodies, but this situation is abnormal and temporary. To be a complete human being is to have a body as well as a soul. Therefore Christ returned to His body, and later ascended into Heaven in the body. And all the dead will be resurrected like Him and will be given new bodies before the Last Judgment.

Thus, rejoicing in the victory of Christ over death and sin, let us all sing:

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
(Paschal Troparion)

There are many YouTube videos of Paschal hymns (some of them sung by professional choirs, others by average parish choirs), but here is a selection of some of my favourite ones:

Do Not Lament Me, O Mother (from the Paschal Nocturns; i.e. the first part of the Resurrection service. The video does a good job of conveying the atmosphere, as the church is kept dark and lit only by a few candles at this stage)
The Paschal Stichera ("Let God Arise"), probably my favourite hymn of all, sung by a parish choir
The Paschal Stichera ("Let God Arise"), same hymn as above, but sung by a professional choir - in my opinion this is the best performance on this list
The Paschal Canon ("It is the Day of Resurrection") in Greek and Slavonic (I couldn't find a complete English version on YouTube)
The Angel Cried (professional choir)
Some highlights of the Paschal service at a church in the US
Paschal Troparion repeatedly sung at the end of the Liturgy, first in English with different melodies, then in other languages
Paschal Troparion in many different languages, part 1
Paschal Troparion in many different languages, part 2

And finally, I would like to post the full text of the Paschal sermon of St. John Chrysostom, which is read every year during the Paschal service in place of having the parish priest deliver a regular sermon of his own. It really is absolutely brilliant:

If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; he gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.

And he shows mercy upon the last, and cares for the first; and to the one he gives, and upon the other he bestows gifts. And he both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honors the acts and praises the offering. Therefore, enter you all into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first, and likewise the second. You rich and poor together, hold high festival. You sober and you heedless, honor the day. Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast sumptuously, all of you. The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.

Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. Let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave!
For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

Two questions.
First question, where does it say that were are to be given new bodies? The bible has said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

It has said that we will be as the angels are in heaven.Matt22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

It has said that Revelation 21:1-7

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

there is a new heaven and a new earth but makes no mention of us being in our current flesh and blood form. It says that those who take part in the first resurrection will be priests of Christ and Yahweh but it says that they are still souls not in this bodily form. Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those of second resurrection are judged and sent to either Heaven or the lake of fire since hell and death have been cast into the lake of fire, but it make no mention here either of anyone of them getting their earthy flesh and blood body back. Revelation 20:11-15

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But I might have missed it somewhere. Could you point out where in the bible it says we are to get a new body and not simply be souls? And again it must be out of the bible, not from any other writings.
Question number 2.
"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave!"
How can not one dead remain in the grave after Christ's resurrection when in Revelation it shows that all that have died are still sleeping, and that during the first resurrection those who have died for Christ and for the word of Yahweh are raised up from their sleep in the hell. Then during the second resurrection all who are dead and in hell and in the sea are taken up for judgment along with all those that are still living and then death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:4-6 Revelation 20:11-15
So please explain to me how this can be possible. Again, using exact quotes from the bible.

I await your reply

[Distruzio]

Khristos anesti!