Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Apologies, in the Catholic faith this is something that's just implicitly understood. We know, yes that all power flows from a God and any actor is but a mere vessel of Gods power and such power is not manifested from said actor themselves. When I say, "has healing powers", it's implied that such powers are not heir own manifestations but God's gift.



Actually, I asked Jamzania, who I just now realized I had mistaken for Juumlarik, which is actually why I was confused as Jum is a catholic convert.

That being said, this is where we'll disagree on the nature of God's providence.

While God bestows his will through the saints indeed, that will is still shaped by the saints free will. God extends his healing power to the saints who have the volition to use that power or not .

In a more earthly example, the Apostles, and all their successors have the authority to bind and loose sins. That authority comes as an extension of God's majesty, so yes when a priest gives absolution, really it's God doing the actual absolving, but the priest can still grant that absolution, or deny it if he feels I don't meet the necessary requirements (remorse and penitence).

The Calvinist will deny this as being constraining to God's will, but the Catholic will counter nay, its God's will that it work this way.

Your argument about Mary fundamentally falls apart when we consider their fact that Christians are perfectly willing to ask others to intercede on their behalf, asking another or even the congregation to pray to the Lord our God on our behalf. Who then does God answer?

The Protestant criticism of intercession of saints, often fails because they tend to miscontrue the nature of said action. They tend to think we see saints as gate keepers rather than say trusted sages. By all means pray to the Blessed Trinity directly, we do this every time we say the Our Father.

However, it doesn't hurt to have some other people pray for you, especially some really holy people that have gifts from God and are currently on the other side of the veil, in Heaven with God. So offer up some prayers to the Saints to.



As an aside though, yes God absolutely does have favorites. Abel found favor with God and not Cain. Jacob was favored not Essau. David was least among his brothers, and first in God's eyes.
The Blessed Virgin found favor in the eyes of the Lord and was Chosen among all human women that ever was and ever will be, to bear his Son. You're damn strait she's special, and it's unbefitting of any of us, consider ourselves her equal in anyway. That being said, it's wrong I think to feel that because God has favored individuals, that this diminishes his love for you. He loves us all, even if he favors some more than others. Be humble and accept the love you're given, consider that none of us really deserve it.

I have question about the saints, I was looking it up online but could not tell definitively if king David was a considered saint or not. Could you help clarify this for me? I figure you would be the one to ask about such things.

King David is recognized as a Saint, his feast day is on December 29. Though it doesn't seem common parlance to refer to OT figures with the Saint moniker.

[First Galactic Remnant]

I have question about the saints, I was looking it up online but could not tell definitively if king David was a considered saint or not. Could you help clarify this for me? I figure you would be the one to ask about such things.

King David is recognized as a Saint, his feast day is on December 29. Though it doesn't seem common parlance to refer to OT figures with the Saint moniker.

Hey. I'm a Christian but I'm liberal. I have a real problem with the church scamming so much money from there members to spend where ? As far as I can see on THEMSELVES. I won't indulge in that because I take the words of Jesus seriously, whereas I am not sure anybody else does. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Jesus said you CANNOT SERVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY. This is something that the Son of God said.
And here many people, even our ministers, have taken as a joke. WHAT ?!? A God that threatens people with an eternal hellish place far from the face of God because they have turned from God and have done evil ? A God that is going to see you burn in Hell. FOREVER. I'm being serious here folks. What I am saying is that while you may make some money, you cannot choose it over God. Because if you choose it over God then you choose Hell. It is that simple. Hell. That is something to think about.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

King David is recognized as a Saint, his feast day is on December 29. Though it doesn't seem common parlance to refer to OT figures with the Saint moniker.

Hey. I'm a Christian but I'm liberal. I have a real problem with the church scamming so much money from there members to spend where ? As far as I can see on THEMSELVES. I won't indulge in that because I take the words of Jesus seriously, whereas I am not sure anybody else does. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Jesus said you CANNOT SERVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY. This is something that the Son of God said.
And here many people, even our ministers, have taken as a joke. WHAT ?!? A God that threatens people with an eternal hellish place far from the face of God because they have turned from God and have done evil ? A God that is going to see you burn in Hell. FOREVER. I'm being serious here folks. What I am saying is that while you may make some money, you cannot choose it over God. Because if you choose it over God then you choose Hell. It is that simple. Hell. That is something to think about.

You're probably protestant and have gone to churches where money is placed above the word of God, correct?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

King David is recognized as a Saint, his feast day is on December 29. Though it doesn't seem common parlance to refer to OT figures with the Saint moniker.

Hey. I'm a Christian but I'm liberal. I have a real problem with the church scamming so much money from there members to spend where ? As far as I can see on THEMSELVES. I won't indulge in that because I take the words of Jesus seriously, whereas I am not sure anybody else does. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Jesus said you CANNOT SERVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY. This is something that the Son of God said.
And here many people, even our ministers, have taken as a joke. WHAT ?!? A God that threatens people with an eternal hellish place far from the face of God because they have turned from God and have done evil ? A God that is going to see you burn in Hell. FOREVER. I'm being serious here folks. What I am saying is that while you may make some money, you cannot choose it over God. Because if you choose it over God then you choose Hell. It is that simple. Hell. That is something to think about.

Please, by all means, convey your sentements to Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar. As for the people here, I think I speak for all of us when I say, "um..okay?"
A. The post you wrote had nothing to do with the post you replied to.
B. I don't really give a shit if you're both Christian and liberal. Categorical words don't give your declarations any more veracity.
C. Considering your post as a hypothetical scenario, isnt the "Church" doing the flock a favor then? After all, since the Son of God doesn't want you choosing money over God, the Church is doing them a favor by alleviating them of such rich- err,..temptations.

[First Galactic Remnant]

Hey. I'm a Christian but I'm liberal. I have a real problem with the church scamming so much money from there members to spend where ? As far as I can see on THEMSELVES. I won't indulge in that because I take the words of Jesus seriously, whereas I am not sure anybody else does. Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Jesus said you CANNOT SERVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY. This is something that the Son of God said.
And here many people, even our ministers, have taken as a joke. WHAT ?!? A God that threatens people with an eternal hellish place far from the face of God because they have turned from God and have done evil ? A God that is going to see you burn in Hell. FOREVER. I'm being serious here folks. What I am saying is that while you may make some money, you cannot choose it over God. Because if you choose it over God then you choose Hell. It is that simple. Hell. That is something to think about.

You're probably protestant and have gone to churches where money is placed above the word of God, correct?

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You're probably protestant and have gone to churches where money is placed above the word of God, correct?

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

Know that for sure do you? Any lotto numbers come with that foresight?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

Yea, I don't think we can judge whether someone will go to hell or not over it. After all, God's salvation rests upon all those who repent for their sins.

However, you won't see anyone disagreeing with you in this thread that churches should help people instead of taking their money for self-aggrandizement.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

Yea, I don't think we can judge whether someone will go to hell or not over it.

However, you won't see anyone disagreeing with you in this thread that churches should help people instead of taking their money for self-aggrandizement.

I might, if I'm feeling overly contrarian.

[Lady Scylla]

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

Know that for sure do you? Any lotto numbers come with that foresight?

666

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Know that for sure do you? Any lotto numbers come with that foresight?

666

THAT'S NOT EVEN A LOTTO NUMBER!

Well... certainly not a Texas Lotto number!

[First Galactic Remnant]

Correct. They are idolators and they worship Allmighty Dollar over Allmighty God and eventually, they will end up in Hell.

Yea, I don't think we can judge whether someone will go to hell or not over it.

However, you won't see anyone disagreeing with you in this thread that churches should help people instead of taking their money for self-aggrandizement.

In a sense, they have whored themselves out for money. That is there God and the scripture is clear. You CANNOT serve God and Money. You CANNOT. It is utterly impossible to gain there "loot" and to make a church service over money and to serve God. For all you know, God might put someone in your path that needs the money but guess what ? You've already spent it all. So I figure that's why god says it. He doesn't want you to be an egotistical person that thinks about himself or herself only. He wants you to think about OTHERS.
The Church has gotten this REALLY wrong. It's turned the Church into a house or robbers.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Know that for sure do you? Any lotto numbers come with that foresight?

666

IIRC 666 is a mistranslation of the number of the beast which is actually 616, and an anagram for Nero.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yea, I don't think we can judge whether someone will go to hell or not over it.

However, you won't see anyone disagreeing with you in this thread that churches should help people instead of taking their money for self-aggrandizement.

In a sense, they have whored themselves out for money. That is there God and the scripture is clear. You CANNOT serve God and Money. You CANNOT. It is utterly impossible to gain there "loot" and to make a church service over money and to serve God. For all you know, God might put someone in your path that needs the money but guess what ? You've already spent it all. So I figure that's why god says it. He doesn't want you to be an egotistical person that thinks about himself or herself only. He wants you to think about OTHERS.
The Church has gotten this REALLY wrong. It's turned the Church into a house or robbers.

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

[Lady Scylla]

666

IIRC 666 is a mistranslation of the number of the beast which is actually 616, and an anagram for Nero.

Why must you over-analyse mah jokes. D:

[Lady Scylla]

In a sense, they have whored themselves out for money. That is there God and the scripture is clear. You CANNOT serve God and Money. You CANNOT. It is utterly impossible to gain there "loot" and to make a church service over money and to serve God. For all you know, God might put someone in your path that needs the money but guess what ? You've already spent it all. So I figure that's why god says it. He doesn't want you to be an egotistical person that thinks about himself or herself only. He wants you to think about OTHERS.
The Church has gotten this REALLY wrong. It's turned the Church into a house or robbers.

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

I thought we were talking about prostitution originally.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

I thought we were talking about prostitution originally.

Well, I mean, err... I'll plead the fifth into getting into this subject

[First Galactic Remnant]

In a sense, they have whored themselves out for money. That is there God and the scripture is clear. You CANNOT serve God and Money. You CANNOT. It is utterly impossible to gain there "loot" and to make a church service over money and to serve God. For all you know, God might put someone in your path that needs the money but guess what ? You've already spent it all. So I figure that's why god says it. He doesn't want you to be an egotistical person that thinks about himself or herself only. He wants you to think about OTHERS.
The Church has gotten this REALLY wrong. It's turned the Church into a house or robbers.

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

There must be a movement away from them.

1. No Church Building- If it is warm enough, then people will meet in the open with no building. They will only build where the weather is cold like in the North.
2. Donation Boxes- The Clergy will no longer collect tithes. Instead, a box will be located at the front of the building, and the parishioners will be able to put money in.
3. No Call for Tithes- The Clergy will not be allowed to call for tithes.

That's my ideas for now.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yea, I don't think we can judge whether someone will go to hell or not over it.

However, you won't see anyone disagreeing with you in this thread that churches should help people instead of taking their money for self-aggrandizement.

In a sense, they have whored themselves out for money.

Are you asserting then that Pastor's should not be payed?

That is there God and the scripture is clear. You CANNOT serve God and Money. You CANNOT.

It says you cannot serve Money not, you cannot have money. What if you serve God and by serving God happen to get money?

It is utterly impossible to gain there "loot" and to make a church service over money and to serve God.

Debatable.

For all you know, God might put someone in your path that needs the money but guess what ? You've already spent it all.

Well now you're changing your tune. We're not supposed to serve money, er go conduct ourselves in a way that ensures our monetary security/prosperity. But now you're saying we should act that way? To make sure we have money to the hypothetical person who may need some financial help? I don't think you can have it both ways.

So I figure that's why god says it.

Oh I see, this is something you figure.

He doesn't want you to be an egotistical person that thinks about himself or herself only. He wants you to think about OTHERS.

being rich and helping others are not mutually exclusive propositions.

The Church has gotten this REALLY wrong. It's turned the Church into a house or robbers.

I think you and I have radically different conceptions on what constitutes "The Church"

[Tarsonis Survivors]

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

There must be a movement away from them.

1. No Church Building- If it is warm enough, then people will meet in the open with no building. They will only build where the weather is cold like in the North.
2. Donation Boxes- The Clergy will no longer collect tithes. Instead, a box will be located at the front of the building, and the parishioners will be able to put money in.
3. No Call for Tithes- The Clergy will not be allowed to call for tithes.

That's my ideas for now.

Oh, Phew..for a second I thought your ideas might be biblical.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

IIRC 666 is a mistranslation of the number of the beast which is actually 616, and an anagram for Nero.

Why must you over-analyse mah jokes. D:

Penance.

[Lady Scylla]

If you mean the Catholic church, why have they whored themselves out for money?

I mean, surely Latin American anti-clericalists could make that argument in the past, but now? What possible reason do you have to think that?

And if it is protestant churches you're talking about, yea, megachurches do exist, and they're theologically and ethically wrong in what they do. Prosperity gospel IS a sham, if this is what you're referring to.

There must be a movement away from them.

1. No Church Building- If it is warm enough, then people will meet in the open with no building. They will only build where the weather is cold like in the North.
2. Donation Boxes- The Clergy will no longer collect tithes. Instead, a box will be located at the front of the building, and the parishioners will be able to put money in.
3. No Call for Tithes- The Clergy will not be allowed to call for tithes.

That's my ideas for now.

Make it where those that donate have their name in for a drawing for like a brand new car, and maybe I'll support this.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

There must be a movement away from them.

1. No Church Building- If it is warm enough, then people will meet in the open with no building. They will only build where the weather is cold like in the North.
2. Donation Boxes- The Clergy will no longer collect tithes. Instead, a box will be located at the front of the building, and the parishioners will be able to put money in.
3. No Call for Tithes- The Clergy will not be allowed to call for tithes.

That's my ideas for now.

Make it where those that donate have their name in for a drawing for like a brand new car, and maybe I'll support this.

That's too easy, that's like gambling. Instead your name will submitted as a possible player on the Price is Right.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Make it where those that donate have their name in for a drawing for like a brand new car, and maybe I'll support this.

That's too easy, that's like gambling. Instead your name will submitted as a possible player on the Price is Right.

You don't even get the prices most of the time in game shows. Pffffft.

[Venerable Bede]

Has there ever been a decent Catholic rebuttal to Photius the Great's Mystagogy of the Spirit? If the existential principles of the Son and the Spirit are essential, then you must either say the principles are common to the entire Trinity (modalism), or that there is essential distinction in the Trinity (tritheism).

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Has there ever been a decent Catholic rebuttal to Photius the Great's Mystagogy of the Spirit? If the existential principles of the Son and the Spirit are essential, then you must either say the principles are common to the entire Trinity (modalism), or that there is essential distinction in the Trinity (tritheism).

It might be helpful if you clarified the Orthodox v Catholic positions.