Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Nordengrund]

Lol! Will do

I mean Mormons and Jehovahs are cults in the eyes of the Catholics, but, I guess they can still be Christian

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

[Salus Maior]

Lol! Will do

I mean Mormons and Jehovahs are cults in the eyes of the Catholics, but, I guess they can still be Christian

Most Protestants I've met don't consider them Christian either.

[Eli Islands]

I mean Mormons and Jehovahs are cults in the eyes of the Catholics, but, I guess they can still be Christian

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

the only mormon I have actually interacted with smoked marijuana, was an alcoholic, committed adultery, abused her children, and told someone to kill themselves but, still to this day is adamant that they are a good mormon.

[Nordengrund]

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

the only mormon I have actually interacted with smoked marijuana, was an alcoholic, committed adultery, abused her children, and told someone to kill themselves but, still to this day is adamant that they are a good mormon.

I've only ever met one Mormon that I know of, and the rest is from what others told me about their experiences.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I mean Mormons and Jehovahs are cults in the eyes of the Catholics, but, I guess they can still be Christian

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

There was the whole "massively racist" thing they had going before (I believe) 1978.

[Nordengrund]

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

There was the whole "massively racist" thing they had going before (I believe) 1978.

I hadn't heard much about Mormon racism over than black people are cursed or something like that.

[Papal Shoes]

The main reason I don't consider Mormons Christians is 1) Claiming of a new prophet, and 2) Not following the original Nicene Creed in terms of doctrine. If I understand correctly, they believe that there are multiple gods, but that the Triune Godhead is the god of our region of space, not the creator "of all things visible and invisible." It's basically henotheism, as well as a blasphemous thing, degrading God.

If someone knows better, feel free to correct me, but that is my current understanding.

[Jamzmania]

There was the whole "massively racist" thing they had going before (I believe) 1978.

I hadn't heard much about Mormon racism over than black people are cursed or something like that.

Dark skin is a sign of your evil that God puts on you, is what I believe it is.

[Jamzmania]

I assume you mean "mormon" and to answer your question to my knowledge* a mormon is someone who follows the teachings of Joseph Smith "and" Jesus Christ


*I am not a mormon so im not postitive.

From what I understand they believe in the divinity of Christ, and in the Christian God, but they believe that the theological truth, or the "true" meaning of Christianity, was passed to Joseph Smith via the angel Moroni. The book of Mormon is, basically, a way of understanding the Bible and the theology of Mormons in one book.

From what I understand, at least. Not a Mormon either, so I am not sure if I am understanding correctly.

I'm pretty sure they don't accept Jesus's divinity.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

There was the whole "massively racist" thing they had going before (I believe) 1978.

I hadn't heard much about Mormon racism over than black people are cursed or something like that.

Before 1978 they wouldn't ordain black people because...eh, black, I guess. They're over that though, so nowadays it's all homophobia and fielding losing presidential candidates.

[Jumalariik]

Three basic and overused reasons why ornamentation and grandeur is a plus, not a minus.

1. God comes into Church nearly every day in the form of the Eucharist. If the person who saved us, the person who is greater than anything we can imagine enters into our house, would we not try to give Him the best? Now, if He comes into his own house, would we not try to do better?

2. Christ was alright with adorning things of value. When everybody was giving to the coffers of the temple, Christ did not say to the widow or anybody to stop giving. He instead praised her for giving what she had. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... k+12:41-44) When Mary washed Christ's feet, He did not protest at the expense, Judas did. Christ instead said that the poor will always be with us. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=DRA) This was even echoed in the nineteenth century when Westminster Cathedral was in a large part funded by the working class. (http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comment ... ss-church/)

3. The Church already is one of the biggest providers of aid to people in the world, why must it give its priceless and timeless treasures to do something temporal?

It seems to me that the idea of a poor Church would only make sense if we also all expected everybody else to be poor. If we want the Church to have nothing, we should first want George Soros, Bill Gates, et al to be poor. The Church does a lot more good for the world and is fundamentally more important.

I'm not going to worship the ground someone shits on simply because they saved me. They earned a favour, sure, and my thanks -- but to go firther than that is just ridiculous.

A millionaire giving a dollar is not a sacrifice. Me giving twenty is.

1. I don't think we would say that if we experienced a second of hell.
2. What is your point?

[Jumalariik]

It wasn't an assumption, your comment reeked of bitterness and pride.

How so? If you're giving alms, it's to be done when you might not even have it to spare. A millionaire giving a dollar is nothing because it's just a minuscule excess of what he has -- so he'd likely not think twice of it. Me giving someone twenty means I could go a week or more without being able to go buy food from the store. I have to think about it if I'm going to be charitable because it's at a cost to me, but I might still be living better than the person I'm being charitable to. That's not prideful -- that's just showing humility.

Insofar as being saved, I am not a slave to my saviour. Me owing someone a favour is a very big deal that I never take lightly. And they'll always have my eternal thanks for saving me. But I'm not about to constantly idolise them -- that's just not healthy. That has little to do with my pride or being bitter -- that's being reasonable and not losing sight of things. In the analogy of relating this to Christ -- do not take it as an attack on Christians, I understand them giving him thanks since the costs in Christian theology is quite heavy. I'm merely attacking the argument that was given to relate to Christ's sacrifice as being ludicrous and a bad argument.

So you would say you just "owe somebody a favor" if they give you the chance to eternal supernatural happiness and save you from eternal suffering? That seems to be quite a prideful view.

[Uiiop]

doesn't it say somewhere in Revelations that if you add stories* to whats already written (in the bible) you will be punished.

*using stories in a general way not meant to be offensive

That only applies to Revelations.

I'd assume then that the originators of a lot of misconceptions of revelations are going to get it?

[Luminesa]

That only applies to Revelations.

I'd assume then that the originators of a lot of misconceptions of revelations are going to get it?

Perhaps it's time we call Dan Brown into the NS Inquisitor's Office for a...casual chat.

*Hides the comfy chair.*

[Dooplevinia]

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

the only mormon I have actually interacted with smoked marijuana, was an alcoholic, committed adultery, abused her children, and told someone to kill themselves but, still to this day is adamant that they are a good mormon.

That man/woman would be considered a Ex-Mormon or at least Inactive.

[Pasong Tirad]

I hadn't heard much about Mormon racism over than black people are cursed or something like that.

Before 1978 they wouldn't ordain black people because...eh, black, I guess. They're over that though, so nowadays it's all homophobia and fielding losing presidential candidates.

Oh man who else loves the musical?

I belieeeeeeeeve
thatinnineteenseventy-eightGodchangedHismindaboutBLACKPEOPLE!
black people!

[Dylar]

You clearly can't comprehend what all of us are trying to tell you. FREE-WILL! NOT GOD'S FAULT FOR THE WORLD BEING SCREWED UP! IT'S OUR FAULT!

Iron Man, calm down. Your systems are gonna overheat.

Too late, they've already shut down, so I had to get outta my suit and go serve a confirmation Mass with Bishop Doherty.

You clearly can't comprehend what all of us are trying to tell you. FREE-WILL! NOT GOD'S FAULT FOR THE WORLD BEING SCREWED UP! IT'S OUR FAULT!

What part of omniscience don't you get? God is either omniscient and saw this coming and permitted it to happen, or he is not omniscient, or not omnipotent, or not omnibenevolent. The three central tenants of divinity don't mesh with the observable world.

Is he omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent? Sure. Does that mean he saw this was coming? No. Why? Think about it. If you saw everything of what would happen and what could happen, you wouldn't know what's going to happen next because of the presence of different timelines. He lives outside of time and space, and as a result, can see multiple timelines, alternate universes. Do we know this? No. It's just a theory. Hell, I'm not even sure the Church accepts that theory, but that's what I've personally come to believe. There's only one way to find out if that theory's true, and that's asking Him after you've died.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Spending money on these things provides no benefit that could not be gotten by simply studying the word and listening to the ministers preach. All the money spent on these things could be better spent on the people and the actual needs of the church.

If the preachers preach the word the church tells them to after knowing what they are saying is a lie then both are at fault. If you confront them with the truth they seek to do all manner of evil against you for doing so. I have heard, and even seen what happens if you bring up something as simple as tithing no longer being in affect or keeping holidays that are not Christian which are fundamental parts of those churches doctrine, so it is not simply the preacher at fault.

Art has its place but spending the churches money on things that serve no real purpose is pointless. Spend the money where the people of the church need it to be spent and if nothing is needed save it until it is needed.

Studying Scripture is good, and attending Church services are good. Both I believe are improved by having an environment designed to enhance spiritual immersion through use of religious art such as Icons, stained glass, sculpture, etc. Ah, but what if the building of these Churches and Cathedrals helps the poor? Tarsonis mentioned public works projects earlier, and in Europe at lot of the time the Church will employ artisans and sculptors whose jobs would usually be usurped by modern concrete molding and other modern technologies.

I can't totally tell what you're saying but it seems Anti-Catholic or Anti-Traditionalism. Am I right?

It does have a purpose, as I've said multiple times. And the Catholic Church spends more money on charity than any other denomination, much more so than they do on building Cathedrals. Which also is helpful.

I am only going to address the second part of your argument, the other two I have already stated my case as you did yours and neither one of us will be swayed to the other's side by discussing them further. It would only serve to waste both of our time.

I am Anti Lucifer and I am Anti corruption of the Lord God Yahweh's word. You said this,

Says who? Also that is very assumptive, can you assume to know the hearts of those masses who bother to get up in the morning and go out of their way to attend Church services? And even if many of them don't go just to hear the truth, that's not the Church's fault, and if they are just hearing what they want to hear and not the truth, that's the preacher's fault, not the Church's.

so I explained how it was not just a single part but the whole church that was at fault as the core beliefs of the church were lies and false doctrine. Now maybe some of the people who attend the Church never got a chance to hear the truth. Though most have at least heard some of it, and they want nothing to do with it.
So back to what I said to begin with, if the mega churches preached the truth they would not need such large buildings.

[ThePeacekeepers]

I've mixed feelings about Mormons. Some of their beliefs are out there, but I've heard very little negative about them when it comes to values, lifestyle, and ethics. I think it is possible to be a saved Mormon. I think what is important is to acknowledge Christ's divinity and accept Him as your Lord and Savior.

the only mormon I have actually interacted with smoked marijuana, was an alcoholic, committed adultery, abused her children, and told someone to kill themselves but, still to this day is adamant that they are a good mormon.

Mormons are generally good people they do not drink or smoke and usually try to help people when given the chance. The person you met was not a true Mormon. Also they believe that some sins are so horrible that Christ's blood can't atone for them, so one's own blood must be spilt, adultery being the main one.

[Venerable Bede]

I've been somewhat remiss in bringing it up, since it is after all his week and last Sunday commemorated him and his feast day is approaching, but has anyone else read The Ladder of Divine Ascent? It's my favorite book, and is extremely influential in my Church. I'm pretty sure John of the Ladder is a saint in Catholicism as well, but I don't know if he is as widely read.

Here are some excerpts

Do not say that you are collecting money for the poor; with two mites the Kingdom was purchased.

For the sake of extreme dispassion, rich gifts, miracle-working and prophetic powers, many exhaust their bodies in vain. They do not know, poor wretches, that it is not toil so much as humility that is the mother of such perfections.

He who with undoubting trust daily expects death is virtuous; but he who hourly yields himself to it is a saint.

Greater than baptism itself is the fountain of tears after baptism, even though it is somewhat audacious to say so. For baptism is the washing away of evils that were in us before, but sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. As baptism is received in infancy, we have all defiled it, but we cleanse it anew with tears. And if God in His love for mankind had not given us tears, few indeed and hard to find would be those in a state of grace

[ThePeacekeepers]

I hadn't heard much about Mormon racism over than black people are cursed or something like that.

Dark skin is a sign of your evil that God puts on you, is what I believe it is.

They believe it is a curse on the person and once they are a true Mormon they turn white. Black skin is also thought to be the mark of Cain.

[Luminesa]

I've been somewhat remiss in bringing it up, since it is after all his week and last Sunday commemorated him and his feast day is approaching, but has anyone else read The Ladder of Divine Ascent? It's my favorite book, and is extremely influential in my Church. I'm pretty sure John of the Ladder is a saint in Catholicism as well, but I don't know if he is as widely read.

Here are some excerpts

Do not say that you are collecting money for the poor; with two mites the Kingdom was purchased.

For the sake of extreme dispassion, rich gifts, miracle-working and prophetic powers, many exhaust their bodies in vain. They do not know, poor wretches, that it is not toil so much as humility that is the mother of such perfections.

He who with undoubting trust daily expects death is virtuous; but he who hourly yields himself to it is a saint.

Greater than baptism itself is the fountain of tears after baptism, even though it is somewhat audacious to say so. For baptism is the washing away of evils that were in us before, but sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. As baptism is received in infancy, we have all defiled it, but we cleanse it anew with tears. And if God in His love for mankind had not given us tears, few indeed and hard to find would be those in a state of grace

Hmmmmm...I have never read this book before.

[Venerable Bede]

I've been somewhat remiss in bringing it up, since it is after all his week and last Sunday commemorated him and his feast day is approaching, but has anyone else read The Ladder of Divine Ascent? It's my favorite book, and is extremely influential in my Church. I'm pretty sure John of the Ladder is a saint in Catholicism as well, but I don't know if he is as widely read.

Here are some excerpts

Do not say that you are collecting money for the poor; with two mites the Kingdom was purchased.

For the sake of extreme dispassion, rich gifts, miracle-working and prophetic powers, many exhaust their bodies in vain. They do not know, poor wretches, that it is not toil so much as humility that is the mother of such perfections.

He who with undoubting trust daily expects death is virtuous; but he who hourly yields himself to it is a saint.

Greater than baptism itself is the fountain of tears after baptism, even though it is somewhat audacious to say so. For baptism is the washing away of evils that were in us before, but sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. As baptism is received in infancy, we have all defiled it, but we cleanse it anew with tears. And if God in His love for mankind had not given us tears, few indeed and hard to find would be those in a state of grace

Hmmmmm...I have never read this book before.

It's a favorite for us to read during Lent, and very integral to our tradition. It's comparable to the Summa Theologica for us in terms of influence (although obviously a very different sort of work).

[Gim]

Dark skin is a sign of your evil that God puts on you, is what I believe it is.

They believe it is a curse on the person and once they are a true Mormon they turn white. Black skin is also thought to be the mark of Cain.

That's very racist. I wouldn't judge people like that.

[Eli Islands]

They believe it is a curse on the person and once they are a true Mormon they turn white. Black skin is also thought to be the mark of Cain.

That's very racist. I wouldn't judge people like that.

but you are still judging...