Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Hi my name is Jeff, I am an orthodox christian and I am gay.

I also made my sister pregnant but we opted for abortion.

What do you think of my life choices ? Opinions ?

I think you should have left it at 21 Jump Street. 22 was mediocre

[Luminesa]

Hi my name is Jeff, I am an orthodox christian and I am gay.

I also made my sister pregnant but we opted for abortion.

What do you think of my life choices ? Opinions ?

I think you should have left it at 21 Jump Street. 22 was mediocre

DUN RESPOND TO TROLL.

[Venerable Bede]

Those are natural laws, it doesn't make sense to apply them to the spiritual reality...that's like angels and pinheads. Nothing isn't a force, it is what any and everything is minus God.

I am nothing without God. This is fact. Demons actually suffer from God, and his absence would be preferable to them, this also fact. God is described as fire throughout Scripture, also fact. I therefore submit to you that the fires of hell are the radiance of God, as the Orthodox maintain.

Sure you can. The natural laws of the world point to the spiritual realities, in fact.

But the spiritual reality is not subject to natural law. Hence, Resurrection.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Sure you can. The natural laws of the world point to the spiritual realities, in fact.

But the spiritual reality is not subject to natural law. Hence, Resurrection.

I would argue otherwise, that the spiritual reality, in so far as it interacts with natural law and they intersect, has to at least follow some logic and use nature to do its bidding while not breaking it entirely.

A resurrection event, therefore, is entirely possible, without breaking natural law in my opinion. The mechanism is just not understandable to us because it is a moment where the spiritual and the physical interact, but I am not of the belief that the spiritual can outright break nature to do something. God is simply not illogical. He has His own reasoning and logic, in my opinion.

[United Muscovite Nations]

No, you really didn't. If anything, it just confused me more. If we do not have valid teachings, doctrines, and authority, and we have no priesthood, then how are we part of the same Church? How do we receive grace?

ExtraordiNarily, and through Baptism.

How are our baptisms valid if our sacraments aren't valid?

[Gim]

ExtraordiNarily, and through Baptism.

How are our baptisms valid if our sacraments aren't valid?

God weighs the motives whatever act you take.

[Venerable Bede]

Those are natural laws, it doesn't make sense to apply them to the spiritual reality...that's like angels and pinheads. Nothing isn't a force, it is what any and everything is minus God.

I am nothing without God. This is fact. Demons actually suffer from God, and his absence would be preferable to them, this also fact. God is described as fire throughout Scripture, also fact. I therefore submit to you that the fires of hell are the radiance of God, as the Orthodox maintain.

The issue here is that existence is both physical and spiritual.

When you talk about existence, if you are referring to physical existence, this is clearly not true. Natural laws define physical existence. Physical existence doesn't need constant sustenance to exist. It just does. You need to do something to matter to change its physical attributes, although in a way you cannot destroy matter in the Universe like God can destroy things in the spiritual realm because of the law of conservation of mass/matter, which states that mass cannot be created or destroyed, but only change physical attributes like form.

Spiritual existence, I would argue, functions in a similar way. Once God puts it in motion, He cannot destroy it by stop thinking about it in His mind. He can influence it and outright destroy it by acting on it, sure, but influence is not sustenance. What you're talking about demons suffering from God's presence, Divine Fire, and the radiance of God in hell are all influences on the spirit, not acts of sustenance. Sustenance would mean that he can destroy existence just by not thinking and ignoring that something exists in which case you could even argue we're all figments of God's imagination, and even as a pretty open-minded non-denominational I have an issue with the implications of this because it sounds way too much like the "universal mind" argument if you carry it to its logical conclusion.

this is the Christian stance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Sustainer

It was for the first thousand years, through the Reformation as well. Any other position, is not Christian, it is non Christian speculation. It doesn't have any witness in Scripture or Patrististics, it is based on personal fancy.

[Luminesa]

ExtraordiNarily, and through Baptism.

How are our baptisms valid if our sacraments aren't valid?

Matthew 28? This is why when a Baptist becomes Catholic, they don't have to be Baptized again. They've already gotten it once.

[Gim]

How are our baptisms valid if our sacraments aren't valid?

Matthew 28? This is why when a Baptist becomes Catholic, they don't have to be Baptized again. They've already gotten it once.

Isn't that where Jesus tells us to evangelize?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The issue here is that existence is both physical and spiritual.

When you talk about existence, if you are referring to physical existence, this is clearly not true. Natural laws define physical existence. Physical existence doesn't need constant sustenance to exist. It just does. You need to do something to matter to change its physical attributes, although in a way you cannot destroy matter in the Universe like God can destroy things in the spiritual realm because of the law of conservation of mass/matter, which states that mass cannot be created or destroyed, but only change physical attributes like form.

Spiritual existence, I would argue, functions in a similar way. Once God puts it in motion, He cannot destroy it by stop thinking about it in His mind. He can influence it and outright destroy it by acting on it, sure, but influence is not sustenance. What you're talking about demons suffering from God's presence, Divine Fire, and the radiance of God in hell are all influences on the spirit, not acts of sustenance. Sustenance would mean that he can destroy existence just by not thinking and ignoring that something exists in which case you could even argue we're all figments of God's imagination, and even as a pretty open-minded non-denominational I have an issue with the implications of this because it sounds way too much like the "universal mind" argument if you carry it to its logical conclusion.

this is the Christian stance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Sustainer

It was for the first thousand years, through the Reformation as well. Any other position, is not Christian, it is non Christian speculation. It doesn't have any witness in Scripture or Patrististics, it is based on personal fancy.

That doesn't exactly tell me much. And, if one reads it, it doesn't support what you're talking about.

If you have no idea how to explain your point, is best if you don't push it along in the first place. Because what you're basically telling me is "read this text that I understand the way I am telling you even though I cannot tell you how the concept works".

Either you explain your point in a way we can all understand your nuanced thought, or this conversation is over. When I told you earlier that I wasn't going to waste my time, I wasn't joking. If you're not up for a conversation or for an objection to your point then there's no point in wasting my energy following a discussion in which I gain nothing of value from you other than derision and teen-like condescension.

I come here to learn, not to be talked down to. I hope you can understand that.

[Luminesa]

Matthew 28? This is why when a Baptist becomes Catholic, they don't have to be Baptized again. They've already gotten it once.

Isn't that where Jesus tells us to evangelize?

"Go and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The Trinitarian formula. ^^

[United Muscovite Nations]

Isn't that where Jesus tells us to evangelize?

"Go and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The Trinitarian formula. ^^

That doesn't really explain how our baptisms are valid if our priesthood isn't valid.

[Hakons]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Probably mostly for rejecting the sacramental necessity of the Church.

[Hakons]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Probably mostly for rejecting the sacramental necessity of the Church.

I used to not view it as essential, but I've grown in faith over the last year and now view participating in the Church as essential for any Christian. The Church guides you along the path, strengthens your faith, and increases your ability to do good works for our neighbors.

*I do realize this might set me apart from quite a few Protestants.

[Greater USA]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Really? It just goes to show how different people can have very different perspectives.

I've had a lot of people tell me that Catholicism is "anti-Christian" and heretical by virtue of incorporating the veneration of saints and our prayers for Mary.

[Salus Maior]

Probably mostly for rejecting the sacramental necessity of the Church.

I used to not view it as essential, but I've grown in faith over the last year and now view participating in the Church as essential for any Christian. The Church guides you along the path, strengthens your faith, and increases your ability to do good works for our neighbors.

*I do realize this might set me apart from quite a few Protestants.

When Catholics/Orthodox say "The Church" they don't just mean attending any kind of church. They mean THE Church, as in Churches with Apostolic Succession and traditions stemming from the original institution. Basically, Catholicism and Orthodoxy (as well as Oriental Orthodox).

Protestantism rejects the idea of the institutional Church, which is seen as gravely incorrect (aka, heretical) to the Apostolic Churches.

[Thermodolia]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!


I had too.

[Salus Maior]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Really? It just goes to show how different people can have very different perspectives.

I've had a lot of people tell me that Catholicism is "anti-Christian" and heretical by virtue of incorporating the veneration of saints and our prayers for Mary.

I grew up in a culture that regularly distinguished Catholicism as not being Christian. And for a long time I believed that and was very combative about it.

I've since moved away from that, and my views nowadays is much closer to Catholicism and Orthodoxy than Protestantism.

[Hakons]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Really? It just goes to show how different people can have very different perspectives.

I've had a lot of people tell me that Catholicism is "anti-Christian" and heretical by virtue of incorporating the veneration of saints and our prayers for Mary.

Appeals to Mary or the Saints are meant so they will in turn appeal to God. At least, that's my understanding of it. It's not heretical or "anti-Christian." I'm Methodist in a majority Methodist area, so mainline Protestants like us usually don't call people heretics.

[Salus Maior]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!


I had too.

No you didn't.

Nice spelling btw.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm Protestant and I feel welcome in this thread.

I like hearing Catholic and Orthodox views because I rarely ever here them in my area.

In general, Protestants are much less combative. We don't immediately resort to claiming other people are heretics. I don't really care if someone would call me a heretic. Unless they show me how I'm actually a heretic, I'll just shrug it off.

Which leads to....

If you're Catholic or Orthodox, why am I a heretic?

Really? It just goes to show how different people can have very different perspectives.

I've had a lot of people tell me that Catholicism is "anti-Christian" and heretical by virtue of incorporating the veneration of saints and our prayers for Mary.

I've heard this argument. I can assure you, many reasonable Protestants do not believe that, and I am sorry you've had to deal with those sorts of people.

[Thermodolia]

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!


I had too.

No you didn't.

Nice spelling btw.

I got to take my chance when it presents itself. Jewish humor and all that, also I'm an ass.

You're serious?

[Hakons]

I used to not view it as essential, but I've grown in faith over the last year and now view participating in the Church as essential for any Christian. The Church guides you along the path, strengthens your faith, and increases your ability to do good works for our neighbors.

*I do realize this might set me apart from quite a few Protestants.

When Catholics/Orthodox say "The Church" they don't just mean attending any kind of church. They mean THE Church, as in Churches with Apostolic Succession and traditions stemming from the original institution. Basically, Catholicism and Orthodoxy (as well as Oriental Orthodox).

Protestantism rejects the idea of the institutional Church, which is seen as gravely incorrect (aka, heretical) to the Apostolic Churches.

How are we to distinguish "THE" Church after the schism? I still listen to my pastor, I still try my best to follow Christ's teachings given to us from the Apostles, and I still follow the Nicene Creed.

[Thermodolia]

Really? It just goes to show how different people can have very different perspectives.

I've had a lot of people tell me that Catholicism is "anti-Christian" and heretical by virtue of incorporating the veneration of saints and our prayers for Mary.

I've heard this argument. I can assure you, many reasonable Protestants do not believe that, and I am sorry you've had to deal with those sorts of people.

Even though I'm not Christian I can back this up. The majority of of Protestants that I've come in contact with, and I've come in contact with a lot, do not believe that Catholics are anti-Christian.