Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Herskerstad]

He was a mass murderer who would have gone on to kill again. He got what was coming to him and it was completely justified.

He was a father and a person making an honest day's work.

He payed taxes, had kids.

. . . Ugly. That's the only way I can describe this sentiment. There are babies born earlier than this guys late abortions to which none would dispute their status as a human being. Passing through the vaginal tract is not a damn test of humanity.

[Luminesa]

Wait are you guys arguing about whether or not George Tiller's assassination was justified?

Apparently...though his assassination a.) made the pro-life movement at large look like a group of violent people (in no small help from the mass media), and b.) did not stop anything, as I believe someone else took over his clinic after he died (at least for a short time). It was counterproductive and unnecessary. You can't kill a man in order to protest killing babies. Peaceful protests exist for a reason. However, Tiller should have been thrown in prison (for life), and his clinic should have been investigated. After all, how does one pass a clinic that regularly smells of incinerating flesh and not say anything to the local authorities? (I don't remember if anyone ever reported him.)

[Pasong Tirad]

Wait are you guys arguing about whether or not George Tiller's assassination was justified?

Apparently...though his assassination a.) made the pro-life movement at large look like a group of violent people (in no small help from the mass media), and b.) did not stop anything, as I believe someone else took over his clinic after he died. It was counterproductive and unnecessary. You can't kill a man in order to protest killing babies. However, Tiller should have been thrown in prison (for life), and his clinic should have been investigated. After all, how does one pass a clinic that regularly smells of incinerating flesh and not say anything to the local authorities? (I don't remember if anyone ever reported him.)

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

[Luminesa]

Apparently...though his assassination a.) made the pro-life movement at large look like a group of violent people (in no small help from the mass media), and b.) did not stop anything, as I believe someone else took over his clinic after he died. It was counterproductive and unnecessary. You can't kill a man in order to protest killing babies. However, Tiller should have been thrown in prison (for life), and his clinic should have been investigated. After all, how does one pass a clinic that regularly smells of incinerating flesh and not say anything to the local authorities? (I don't remember if anyone ever reported him.)

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

While I agree that it was not justified, Tiller very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

Also, for future reference, I'm a girl. ^^

[Pasong Tirad]

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

He very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

He performed abortions when the life of the child wouldn't have been in what we can count as "normal" and when the mother's life would have been at risk. Either way, this kind of discussion might not belong here but in the abortion thread. I'm responding to the people who think that his assassination was in any way justified by Christianity - which is total bull.

[Luminesa]

He very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

He performed abortions when the life of the child wouldn't have been in what we can count as "normal" and when the mother's life would have been at risk. Either way, this kind of discussion might not belong here but in the abortion thread. I'm responding to the people who think that his assassination was in any way justified by Christianity - which is total bull.

Sure, though at that point, though, in the third-trimester, nobody can argue whether or not it is a living child, and if a mother's life is in danger during her pregnancy, she needs to be sent to the ER, not to an abortion clinic. Furthermore, "not normal" is not an excuse for a late-term abortion. A child can be treated for deformities (at least physical ones) even in the womb at this point.

[Pasong Tirad]

He performed abortions when the life of the child wouldn't have been in what we can count as "normal" and when the mother's life would have been at risk. Either way, this kind of discussion might not belong here but in the abortion thread. I'm responding to the people who think that his assassination was in any way justified by Christianity - which is total bull.

Sure, though at that point, though, in the third-trimester, nobody can argue whether or not it is a living child, and if a mother's life is in danger during her pregnancy, she needs to be sent to the ER, not to an abortion clinic. Furthermore, "not normal" is not an excuse for a late-term abortion. A child can be treated for deformities (at least physical ones) even in the womb at this point.

I agree that the fetus is living at the third trimester. On the other points, I'm not really a doctor so I wouldn't know where to go, because if the woman believes she can save her child then she should definitely go to an ER - which means that the act of going to an abortion clinic means the woman has probably given up (again, as a man I wouldn't know nor would I presume to know what she's going through). Also, never have I ever had a deformity nor has anyone in my family (thank God), so I wouldn't understand the life someone can live with a kind of disease.

[Herskerstad]

He very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

He performed abortions when the life of the child wouldn't have been in what we can count as "normal" and when the mother's life would have been at risk. Either way, this kind of discussion might not belong here but in the abortion thread. I'm responding to the people who think that his assassination was in any way justified by Christianity - which is total bull.

There exist several cases that he did so for entirely garbage rationale, one I recall from the top of my head was a girl who was depressed she could not go to a concert. It was so bad that a doctor Kristin Neuhaus had her medical lisene revoked for rubber stamping any excuse that came under the mental health umbrella which Tiller forwarded. It was not a smooth or even affordably placed operations so any notion of heartfelt charity or soft eugenics are little more than convenient pretensions, but those two issues fall so short of the fundamental issue that they deserve little more than a passing mention.

Also what you'd define as not normal could be extended into multiple situations that would indeed touch upon those of us which were born with abnormalities or health risks and would imply a devaluing. I am not going to be so petty as to belabour the point further, but given the thread I find it suitable to stress that abortion is the entirely opposite of the gospel. Rather than dying for others it is having others die for you. Rather than caring for those that are the kingdom of God it becomes a pathway to destruction. While I'd be glad to stress that the society in which we have fostered is co-complicit in the fact that so many turn to such methods, it does not excuse a lukewarm approach to the issue as it concerns indeed humanity and life itself.

As far as the earthly fate of mr Tiller it certainly stood far from ideal and ultimately we are subject to the law of our rulers. I agree that protest is legitimate and should be the course of actions for those of us whom are not politicians rather than some defender of Gotham mantra, but the tragedy of Tiller is, quite frankly, overshadowed by the tragedy of his assembly line of victims.

[Pasong Tirad]

He performed abortions when the life of the child wouldn't have been in what we can count as "normal" and when the mother's life would have been at risk. Either way, this kind of discussion might not belong here but in the abortion thread. I'm responding to the people who think that his assassination was in any way justified by Christianity - which is total bull.

There exist several cases that he did so for entirely garbage rationale, one I recall from the top of my head was a girl who was depressed she could not go to a concert. It was so bad that a doctor Kristin Neuhaus had her medical lisene revoked for rubber stamping any excuse that came under the mental health umbrella which Tiller forwarded. It was not a smooth or even affordably placed operations so any notion of heartfelt charity or soft eugenics are little more than convenient pretensions, but those two issues fall so short of the fundamental issue that they deserve little more than a passing mention.

Also what you'd define as not normal could be extended into multiple situations that would indeed touch upon those of us which were born with abnormalities or health risks and would imply a devaluing. I am not going to be so petty as to belabour the point further, but given the thread I find it suitable to stress that abortion is the entirely opposite of the gospel. Rather than dying for others it is having others die for you. Rather than caring for those that are the kingdom of God it becomes a pathway to destruction. While I'd be glad to stress that the society in which we have fostered is co-complicit in the fact that so many turn to such methods, it does not excuse a lukewarm approach to the issue as it concerns indeed humanity and life itself.

As far as the earthly fate of mr Tiller it certainly stood far from ideal and ultimately we are subject to the law of our rulers. I agree that protest is legitimate and should be the course of actions for those of us whom are not politicians rather than some defender of Gotham mantra, but the tragedy of Tiller is, quite frankly, overshadowed by the tragedy of his assembly line of victims.

I'm sorry if you think I was belittling the case of those who are born with defects and the like and I would never presume to understand what you and millions of others are going through - nor do I presume that what the women go through and what Mr. Tiller has done is the right thing. My only point is that I will never understand why some people would even begin to believe that his death was a justified response to what he was doing. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all.

And as for your other points, I don't think I can respond to it without this discussion once again deviating from Mr. Tiller's assassination.

[Jamzmania]

I think most people recognize that just because something is legal in a particular place does not mean it is acceptable or moral. Just because it was legal under German law to exterminate certain peoples does not mean it it wasn't murder.

[United Marxist Nations]

I have exciting news! In May, the Right Reverend Alexander, Bishop of Dallas and the South, will be visiting my parish!

[Thermodolia]

I think most people recognize that just because something is legal in a particular place does not mean it is acceptable or moral. Just because it was legal under German law to exterminate certain peoples does not mean it it wasn't murder.

And everyone of those guards, soldiers, and Nazi members where given a trial before their execution or imprisonment.

[United Marxist Nations]

I think most people recognize that just because something is legal in a particular place does not mean it is acceptable or moral. Just because it was legal under German law to exterminate certain peoples does not mean it it wasn't murder.

And everyone of those guards, soldiers, and Nazi members where given a trial before their execution or imprisonment.

Oh, not true. Many were killed summarily or killed in battle.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Apparently...though his assassination a.) made the pro-life movement at large look like a group of violent people (in no small help from the mass media), and b.) did not stop anything, as I believe someone else took over his clinic after he died. It was counterproductive and unnecessary. You can't kill a man in order to protest killing babies. However, Tiller should have been thrown in prison (for life), and his clinic should have been investigated. After all, how does one pass a clinic that regularly smells of incinerating flesh and not say anything to the local authorities? (I don't remember if anyone ever reported him.)

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

Thank you.

[United Marxist Nations]

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

Thank you.

We have to remember, that "doing his job" was murdering children.

[Thermodolia]

And everyone of those guards, soldiers, and Nazi members where given a trial before their execution or imprisonment.

Oh, not true. Many were killed summarily or killed in battle.

The ones involved directly with the camps, that's what they where refering to

[Czechanada]

Okay this is just cold for anyone to even argue about. Killing another person because they were aborting fetuses isn't the way to go and no way should it evne be justified, really. I'm assuming that most of us here are men and so I don't think we can really speak for the woman when it comes to abortions and this is just common sense. Do you think Tiller enjoyed what he was doing? Do you think he profited greatly from the suffering of women who knew that if they gave birth, their kids wouldn't be able to experience the fullness of life or that if they gave birth, they themselves wouldn't be able to live normally anymore?

Really I don't even know why we're arguing about whether or not it was even slightly okay to assassinate a guy who was just doing his job and saving the lives of pregnant women.

While I agree that it was not justified, Tiller very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

Also, for future reference, I'm a girl. ^^

That approach isn't used in clinical practice nowadays. Please do not spread misinformation.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Thank you.

We have to remember, that "doing his job" was murdering children.

Wasn't murder in the eyes of the government.

[United Marxist Nations]

We have to remember, that "doing his job" was murdering children.

Wasn't murder in the eyes of the government.

Then the government is unequivocally wrong.

[Herskerstad]

Wasn't murder in the eyes of the government.

Then the government is unequivocally wrong.

There we agree, but Nero's government was also unequivocally wrong, and Paul taught obedience under governments even under such.

I agree that in some quite specific cases resistance to Tyranny is obedience to God, but that generally involves a sense of peril and impossibility of reform which we cannot rightly say is the present case.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Wasn't murder in the eyes of the government.

Then the government is unequivocally wrong.

Government was elected by the people.

You don't like it, go protest.

[United Marxist Nations]

Then the government is unequivocally wrong.

Government was elected by the people.

You don't like it, go protest.

Then the people are wrong.

I don't know what part of this you aren't getting. Abortion is, in a Christian sense, equal to murder, because it is murder.

[Luminesa]

While I agree that it was not justified, Tiller very much enjoyed what he did, first of all. He was paid probably thousands of dollars per abortion (late-term abortions are usually quite expensive, at least according to Planned Parenthood's website), and fought very much for his job. Second, this was not just "doing a job", like being a mailman or a teacher. He killed babies late-term, in the third-trimester, when the child is entirely capable of surviving outside the womb. Have you ever seen a late-term abortion? The child's head is smashed-in and their brains are trashed. His work was most-likely not even legal in the first place. He should have been turned-in.

Also, for future reference, I'm a girl. ^^

That approach isn't used in clinical practice nowadays. Please do not spread misinformation.

Which approach? The late-term abortion procedure I posted? I was not aware that it was updated.

[Luminesa]

We have to remember, that "doing his job" was murdering children.

Wasn't murder in the eyes of the government.

It is still murder. If infanticide is one day declared "not murder" by the government, and a woman decides to take her two-month-old and drop him off a cliff, is it murder or no?

[Czechanada]

That approach isn't used in clinical practice nowadays. Please do not spread misinformation.

Which approach? The late-term abortion procedure I posted? I was not aware that it was updated.

Yes; the fetus is given an injection and then removed by forceps.