Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Venerable Bede]

I really don't think the Cardinals appointed by Francis would elect Sarah.

They don't actually control the college of cardinals, and probably won't for a while. The largest section of cardinals were appointed by Benedict.

It's actually not much larger than how many Francis has up now, and I get the feeling Francis is going to be Pope much longer than Benedict was.

[Diopolis]

They don't actually control the college of cardinals, and probably won't for a while. The largest section of cardinals were appointed by Benedict.

It's actually not much larger than how many Francis has up now, and I get the feeling Francis is going to be Pope much longer than Benedict was.

Maybe. But his papacy hasn't exactly been an exercise in making people happy, he appointed a lot of cardinals from the developing world who tend not to want another pope from a rich white country(yes, Argentina counts as one), and the conservatives are still the largest block in the college of cardinals. A drastic swing after he leaves the papacy is definitely in the cards- who would have expected the liberal runner up from the last conclave after eight years of Benedict?

[Venerable Bede]

It's actually not much larger than how many Francis has up now, and I get the feeling Francis is going to be Pope much longer than Benedict was.

Maybe. But his papacy hasn't exactly been an exercise in making people happy, he appointed a lot of cardinals from the developing world who tend not to want another pope from a rich white country(yes, Argentina counts as one), and the conservatives are still the largest block in the college of cardinals. A drastic swing after he leaves the papacy is definitely in the cards- who would have expected the liberal runner up from the last conclave after eight years of Benedict?

True, but some of the cardinals who were instrumental in getting Benedict elected are really liberal, such as Schonborn, and some of Benedict's own appointments are really liberal, like Marx. Benedict mostly got elected because he had a very prestigious position and reputation prior, which stretched back to his defense of Vatican II.

[Diopolis]

Maybe. But his papacy hasn't exactly been an exercise in making people happy, he appointed a lot of cardinals from the developing world who tend not to want another pope from a rich white country(yes, Argentina counts as one), and the conservatives are still the largest block in the college of cardinals. A drastic swing after he leaves the papacy is definitely in the cards- who would have expected the liberal runner up from the last conclave after eight years of Benedict?

True, but some of the cardinals who were instrumental in getting Benedict elected are really liberal, such as Schonborn, and some of Benedict's own appointments are really liberal, like Marx. Benedict mostly got elected because he had a very prestigious position and reputation prior, which stretched back to his defense of Vatican II.

Most of what I've seen from Vatican insiders indicates a lot more support for Sarah than one would expect, to the point of some of them think counting anyone else as papabile is foolhardy. Plus Francis has made his papacy essentially about pissing off powerful churchmen, and following a half-assed way of doing so that renders his own supporters frustrated. I would expect the conservative voting block to be pretty near unanimous in supporting Sarah, which coupled with bandwagon effect, a few African cardinals supporting him either because they want a pivot to Africa or just want a black pope, and a lot of cardinals just being angry with Francis, could be enough to get him elected.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Pray for Japan.

[Venerable Bede]

True, but some of the cardinals who were instrumental in getting Benedict elected are really liberal, such as Schonborn, and some of Benedict's own appointments are really liberal, like Marx. Benedict mostly got elected because he had a very prestigious position and reputation prior, which stretched back to his defense of Vatican II.

Most of what I've seen from Vatican insiders indicates a lot more support for Sarah than one would expect, to the point of some of them think counting anyone else as papabile is foolhardy. Plus Francis has made his papacy essentially about pissing off powerful churchmen, and following a half-assed way of doing so that renders his own supporters frustrated. I would expect the conservative voting block to be pretty near unanimous in supporting Sarah, which coupled with bandwagon effect, a few African cardinals supporting him either because they want a pivot to Africa or just want a black pope, and a lot of cardinals just being angry with Francis, could be enough to get him elected.

I don't think they're going to reverse the direction Rome has been going since the 1960's. First of all, Sarah is so traditionalist as to make Benedict look liberal, and liberal cardinals who want to modernize the RCC and improve relations with the world would never, ever agree to that, at the most they'd go for someone only moderately conservative. And secondly, and this is really crucial, Sarah's notoriety is entirely about him being traditionalist and bucking the modern trend of the RCC; if Benedict's reputation revolved around that, he would never have been elected, he was elected in spite of traditionalist outlook, not because of it. Sarah has nothing at all to recommend him to any cardinal who isn't a serious traditionalist, which most cardinals are not, at least if we're defining "serious traditionalist" as in Sarah's vein.

[Diopolis]

Most of what I've seen from Vatican insiders indicates a lot more support for Sarah than one would expect, to the point of some of them think counting anyone else as papabile is foolhardy. Plus Francis has made his papacy essentially about pissing off powerful churchmen, and following a half-assed way of doing so that renders his own supporters frustrated. I would expect the conservative voting block to be pretty near unanimous in supporting Sarah, which coupled with bandwagon effect, a few African cardinals supporting him either because they want a pivot to Africa or just want a black pope, and a lot of cardinals just being angry with Francis, could be enough to get him elected.

I don't think they're going to reverse the direction Rome has been going since the 1960's. First of all, Sarah is so traditionalist as to make Benedict look liberal, and liberal cardinals who want to modernize the RCC and improve relations with the world would never, ever agree to that, at the most they'd go for someone only moderately conservative. And secondly, and this is really crucial, Sarah's notoriety is entirely about him being traditionalist and bucking the modern trend of the RCC; if Benedict's reputation revolved around that, he would never have been elected, he was elected in spite of traditionalist outlook, not because of it. Sarah has nothing at all to recommend him to any cardinal who isn't a serious traditionalist, which most cardinals are not, at least if we're defining "serious traditionalist" as in Sarah's vein.

Basically, we're at gut feelings level arguments. The vatican insiders claim that Sarah is likely to win the next conclave, especially because Francis has made his pontificate one that pisses off basically everyone and thus we can't really expect a unified liberal block at the next conclave like we can a conservative block(and remember- the merely conservative Catholics are moving in the direction of "Traddies can't be that bad, now can they" because they're allies of convenience). Your gut tells you that most cardinals are too liberal to vote for Sarah(for the record, I think most were too conservative to vote for Francis in the last conclave, and already knew it quite well).

[Angleter]

I don't think they're going to reverse the direction Rome has been going since the 1960's. First of all, Sarah is so traditionalist as to make Benedict look liberal, and liberal cardinals who want to modernize the RCC and improve relations with the world would never, ever agree to that, at the most they'd go for someone only moderately conservative. And secondly, and this is really crucial, Sarah's notoriety is entirely about him being traditionalist and bucking the modern trend of the RCC; if Benedict's reputation revolved around that, he would never have been elected, he was elected in spite of traditionalist outlook, not because of it. Sarah has nothing at all to recommend him to any cardinal who isn't a serious traditionalist, which most cardinals are not, at least if we're defining "serious traditionalist" as in Sarah's vein.

Basically, we're at gut feelings level arguments. The vatican insiders claim that Sarah is likely to win the next conclave, especially because Francis has made his pontificate one that pisses off basically everyone and thus we can't really expect a unified liberal block at the next conclave like we can a conservative block(and remember- the merely conservative Catholics are moving in the direction of "Traddies can't be that bad, now can they" because they're allies of convenience). Your gut tells you that most cardinals are too liberal to vote for Sarah(for the record, I think most were too conservative to vote for Francis in the last conclave, and already knew it quite well).

Might the ad orientem debacle have put the brakes on the Sarah juggernaut?

[Luminesa]

Pray for Japan.

Absolutely. Dear God, have mercy and help them.

[Diopolis]

Basically, we're at gut feelings level arguments. The vatican insiders claim that Sarah is likely to win the next conclave, especially because Francis has made his pontificate one that pisses off basically everyone and thus we can't really expect a unified liberal block at the next conclave like we can a conservative block(and remember- the merely conservative Catholics are moving in the direction of "Traddies can't be that bad, now can they" because they're allies of convenience). Your gut tells you that most cardinals are too liberal to vote for Sarah(for the record, I think most were too conservative to vote for Francis in the last conclave, and already knew it quite well).

Might the ad orientem debacle have put the brakes on the Sarah juggernaut?

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Pray for Japan.

I hope everyone evacuates ok.

[New confederate ramenia]

Does anyone else feel warm while praying? Like the area around becomes hotter? Is that normal, or just me?

[Luminesa]

Does anyone else feel warm while praying? Like the area around becomes hotter? Is that normal, or just me?

This has happened to me before a couple of times. It happens particularly if you pray to the Holy Spirit, when it does happen.

[Venerable Bede]

Does anyone else feel warm while praying? Like the area around becomes hotter? Is that normal, or just me?

Yeah, but mainly after doing a few sets of prostrations, since you're supposed to stand all the way back up after each one.

[Constantinopolis]

Might the ad orientem debacle have put the brakes on the Sarah juggernaut?

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.

The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

[Venerable Bede]

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.

The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

Protestants found that offensive (since their worship revolves around sermons, not prayer), so the Catholic Church appeased them.

[Diopolis]

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.

The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

You and me both.

[Nordengrund]

Does anyone else feel warm while praying? Like the area around becomes hotter? Is that normal, or just me?

Occasionally, but Paul warns that the heart can be deceitful.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.
The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

It does make it easier to hear what's going on in parishes without the means to acquire sound systems, but that's about the only thing it's got going for it.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Maybe, but it's important to point out that most people in the church, including the left, acknowledge that he didn't seem to have any inclination towards actually imposing ad orientem on anyone and was saying it to a gathering of explicit traditionalists.

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.

The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

Except now Christ is among the Congregation.

[Salus Maior]

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.

The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

Protestants found that offensive (since their worship revolves around sermons, not prayer), so the Catholic Church appeased them.

To be honest, from my visit to an Orthodox Church last sunday, I think I preferred that it revolved around prayer rather than the sermon. I mean, I like sermons, but I don't care for them taking up the entirety of the service. It was short, sweet, and to the point.

I remember when I went to my family's non-denominational church, the sermons would almost always take forever and you'd never know the end of it. Like, the pastor would say "this is my last point" for like 2 hours and keep going on about the same subject. Honestly, it was just really irritating. Which I don't think should be the way I should feel in Church.

[Luminesa]

You know... It infuriates me that something as basic as celebrating the Mass ad orientem - which is how it was done for the vast majority of Christian history by the vast majority of Christian Churches, with no controversy whatsoever - is now something that apparently makes you a "conservative" or "traditionalist" in the Catholic Church.
The priest leads the congregation in prayer and prays to God. That means he should be facing in the same direction as everyone else most of the time. To have the priest face the congregation instead just makes it seem that the people are praying to the priest, which is bizarre.

It does make it easier to hear what's going on in parishes without the means to acquire sound systems, but that's about the only thing it's got going for it.

I mean...the priest is there in the person of Christ, so...we look to him because he leads us to Christ? Ummm...?

[United Marxist Nations]

I'm back.

[Luminesa]

I'm back.

Hai! *Waves.*

[Venerable Bede]

Protestants found that offensive (since their worship revolves around sermons, not prayer), so the Catholic Church appeased them.

To be honest, from my visit to an Orthodox Church last sunday, I think I preferred that it revolved around prayer rather than the sermon. I mean, I like sermons, but I don't care for them taking up the entirety of the service. It was short, sweet, and to the point.

I remember when I went to my family's non-denominational church, the sermons would almost always take forever and you'd never know the end of it. Like, the pastor would say "this is my last point" for like 2 hours and keep going on about the same subject. Honestly, it was just really irritating. Which I don't think should be the way I should feel in Church.

Prayer-focused worship is how ancient Christians celebrated the Lord's day.