Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Oh, well I... I guess I'm really off the mark on that count.

Still though, if not from the Caananites, where else did the Israelites and their religion originate from?

First off, the way hebrew records numbers would make accountants tear their hair out, because it's very ambiguous. But, bear in mind that the hebrew bible records a people who leave egypt to conquer, enslave, and forcibly convert the people living in southern canaan. Note that the actual numbers of them are not terribly well recorded because ancient hebrew is not a very good language at specific numbers.
So, in essence, a tribe leaving egypt is recorded conquering a new region and presumably forming their elite. This tribe is distinguished by monotheism and certain egyptian cultural practices taken to an extreme- the ancient egyptians had their own circumcision and food taboo practices- and left egypt after a period of enslavement that followed a time of religious turmoil in egypt over... monotheism.
Under this theory, the hebrews got their religion from Akhenaten, then were enslaved after his dynasty was overthrown. They were led out of country by a man named Moses, to a land they claim some sort of connection to, conquered the locals, and imposed their culture.

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

[Salus Maior]

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

It's like a cosmic version of "my dad can beat up your dad"

[Novsvacro]

First off, the way hebrew records numbers would make accountants tear their hair out, because it's very ambiguous. But, bear in mind that the hebrew bible records a people who leave egypt to conquer, enslave, and forcibly convert the people living in southern canaan. Note that the actual numbers of them are not terribly well recorded because ancient hebrew is not a very good language at specific numbers.
So, in essence, a tribe leaving egypt is recorded conquering a new region and presumably forming their elite. This tribe is distinguished by monotheism and certain egyptian cultural practices taken to an extreme- the ancient egyptians had their own circumcision and food taboo practices- and left egypt after a period of enslavement that followed a time of religious turmoil in egypt over... monotheism.
Under this theory, the hebrews got their religion from Akhenaten, then were enslaved after his dynasty was overthrown. They were led out of country by a man named Moses, to a land they claim some sort of connection to, conquered the locals, and imposed their culture.

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

Could the stories of the 'falling away' of some of the Israelites into polytheism be an indication that they were adopting Canaanite religious beliefs?

[Diopolis]

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

Could the stories of the 'falling away' of some of the Israelites into polytheism be an indication that they were adopting Canaanite religious beliefs?

When I was taught the old testament as a child, they said pretty explicitly that that was what it was.

[Salus Maior]

Could the stories of the 'falling away' of some of the Israelites into polytheism be an indication that they were adopting Canaanite religious beliefs?

Sounds about right.

Baal and Ashura were Canaanite gods, weren't they?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

Could the stories of the 'falling away' of some of the Israelites into polytheism be an indication that they were adopting Canaanite religious beliefs?

Yes, a consistent problem was they would screw up and start worshiping foreign Gods.

But the point is they acknowledge other God's existing.

[Diopolis]

Ancient- Hebrew monotheism is interesting, as often in scripture the existence of other Gods isn't contested. The tribe is unique in that they only serve one God, but they acknowledge the existence of other God's who YHWH contests with. The plagues of Egypt are so provocative because YHWH enters Egypt and upsets their Gods on their own turf.

It's like a cosmic version of "my dad can beat up your dad"

That's exactly how they ancient Jews seemed to view it, judging from some of what I remember from OT class. Granted, it was years ago and may not have been taught with the best information ever, but still.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Could the stories of the 'falling away' of some of the Israelites into polytheism be an indication that they were adopting Canaanite religious beliefs?

Sounds about right.

Baal and Ashura were Canaanite gods, weren't they?

So is Moloch

[Venerable Bede]

"El" just means "god" in that cluster of Semitic dialects ("Allah" comes from it). YHWH is a particular El.

Yes...now. Elohim comes from it too. But in the Canaanite pantheon El is a character. He's head of the Pantheon, king of the Gods.

Elohim is just the plural case of el.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yes...now. Elohim comes from it too. But in the Canaanite pantheon El is a character. He's head of the Pantheon, king of the Gods.

Elohim is just the plural case of el.

And a Hebrew name for YHWH. You do realize proper nouns don't always coordinate with their common usage right?

[Sanctissima]

Yes...now. Elohim comes from it too. But in the Canaanite pantheon El is a character. He's head of the Pantheon, king of the Gods.

Elohim is just the plural case of el.

Pretty much. As a word in and of itself, it translates to "gods".

That being said, in the context of its use in the Bible, the term roughly translates to "my god", or more loosely "my god of the gods".

[Diopolis]

Sounds about right.

Baal and Ashura were Canaanite gods, weren't they?

So is Moloch

It's interesting to note that many demons in traditional Christianity bear some resemblances to pagan deities. My interpretation of Catholicism is pretty explicit in stating that this is because pagans worship demons, although I understand if yall may want some other interpretation of the phenomena.

[Venerable Bede]

Elohim is just the plural case of el.

And a Hebrew name for YHWH. You do realize proper nouns don't always coordinate with their common usage right?

It's a title used as a name, like King, Lord, Your Highness, and so on.

[Venerable Bede]

So is Moloch

It's interesting to note that many demons in traditional Christianity bear some resemblances to pagan deities. My interpretation of Catholicism is pretty explicit in stating that this is because pagans worship demons, although I understand if yall may want some other interpretation of the phenomena.

That's something in Hebrew tradition as well, not just Christianity. For example, Beelzebub is Baal, and Moloch is, well, Moloch.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

And a Hebrew name for YHWH. You do realize proper nouns don't always coordinate with their common usage right?

It's a title used as a name, like King, Lord, Your Highness, and so on.

Fine, it's still derived from El, it's still used as a Name for God. Your haggling over something that serves no purpose for this discussion. El is still a character in the Canaanite pantheon, /9 I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make.

[Venerable Bede]

It's a title used as a name, like King, Lord, Your Highness, and so on.

Fine, it's still derived from El, it's still used as a Name for God. Your haggling over something that serves no purpose for this discussion. El is still a character in the Canaanite pantheon, /9 I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make.

My point is that it's a bit misleading to say YHWH was just one god of a pantheon prior to becoming the only God, simply due to the term "El".

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Fine, it's still derived from El, it's still used as a Name for God. Your haggling over something that serves no purpose for this discussion. El is still a character in the Canaanite pantheon, /9 I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make.

My point is that it's a bit misleading to say YHWH was just one god of a pantheon prior to becoming the only God, simply due to the term "El".

I haven't said that at all actually. I've said YHWH was a foreign God the Hebrews brought into Canaan YHWH isn't a member of the pantheon at all.

[Sanctissima]

Fine, it's still derived from El, it's still used as a Name for God. Your haggling over something that serves no purpose for this discussion. El is still a character in the Canaanite pantheon, /9 I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make.

My point is that it's a bit misleading to say YHWH was just one god of a pantheon prior to becoming the only God, simply due to the term "El".

It's not just El, it's the fact that for all intents and purposes, whether they spent some time in Egypt before returning to their homeland or not, the Israelites were probably Canaanites before they developed their own identity. That means in all likelihood their religion came from the Canaanites as well, since that seemed to be the case for their culture and pretty much everything else. Hence, Yahweh was originally part of a pantheon of many other gods.

I should point out that doesn't necessarily mean your god is false. Just that monotheism isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be.

[Venerable Bede]

My point is that it's a bit misleading to say YHWH was just one god of a pantheon prior to becoming the only God, simply due to the term "El".

I haven't said that at all actually. I've said YHWH was a foreign God the Hebrews brought into Canaan YHWH isn't a member of the pantheon at all.

Well, you speculated that YHWH is a rendition of El. But maybe I misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

[Venerable Bede]

My point is that it's a bit misleading to say YHWH was just one god of a pantheon prior to becoming the only God, simply due to the term "El".

It's not just El, it's the fact that for all intents and purposes, whether they spent some time in Egypt before returning to their homeland or not, the Israelites were probably Canaanites before they developed their own identity. That means in all likelihood their religion came from the Canaanites as well, since that seemed to be the case for their culture and pretty much everything else. Hence, Yahweh was originally part of a pantheon of many other gods.

I should point out that doesn't necessarily mean your god is false. Just that monotheism isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be.

Hebrews might be "racially" Canaanites, but the Torah seems to focus heavily on Jews distinguishing themselves completely from other Canaanites through religion. So I would not say it makes sense to call Hebrew religion an outgrowth of other Canaanite religion. There is no archaeological evidence of YHWH being in a pantheon prior to monotheistic adoration.

[Sanctissima]

It's not just El, it's the fact that for all intents and purposes, whether they spent some time in Egypt before returning to their homeland or not, the Israelites were probably Canaanites before they developed their own identity. That means in all likelihood their religion came from the Canaanites as well, since that seemed to be the case for their culture and pretty much everything else. Hence, Yahweh was originally part of a pantheon of many other gods.

I should point out that doesn't necessarily mean your god is false. Just that monotheism isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be.

Hebrews might be "racially" Canaanites, but the Torah seems to focus heavily on Jews distinguishing themselves completely from other Canaanites through religion. So I would not say it makes since to call Hebrew religion an outgrowth of other Canaanite religion. There is no archaeological evidence of YHWH being in a pantheon prior to monotheistic adoration.

Which is pretty much where the suspicion about Yahweh being originally a Canaanite god originates from. The constant references to the Hebrews trying to distinguish themselves, as well as the different names for god (the term Elohim does imply the Hebrews believed or at least acknowledged the existence of other gods) makes one wonder whether they picked one, namely Yahweh, and chose to worship him exclusively.

[Venerable Bede]

Hebrews might be "racially" Canaanites, but the Torah seems to focus heavily on Jews distinguishing themselves completely from other Canaanites through religion. So I would not say it makes since to call Hebrew religion an outgrowth of other Canaanite religion. There is no archaeological evidence of YHWH being in a pantheon prior to monotheistic adoration.

Which is pretty much where the suspicion about Yahweh being originally a Canaanite god originates from. The constant references to the Hebrews trying to distinguish themselves, as well as the different names for god (the term Elohim does imply the Hebrews believed or at least acknowledged the existence of other gods) makes one wonder whether they picked one, namely Yahweh, and chose to worship him exclusively.

The thing is, "Elohim," when used in the Torah, generally refers to a singular entity, at least judging by context. If the entity is a plural acting as one, he is so unified as to be practically Trinitarian.

"Makes one wonder" is, quite literally, all the evidence you have, and that is enough to support ancient aliens. No offense.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I haven't said that at all actually. I've said YHWH was a foreign God the Hebrews brought into Canaan YHWH isn't a member of the pantheon at all.

Well, you speculated that YHWH is a rendition of El. But maybe I misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

No I said the earliest Hebrews we had evidence of were polytheistic

[Sanctissima]

Which is pretty much where the suspicion about Yahweh being originally a Canaanite god originates from. The constant references to the Hebrews trying to distinguish themselves, as well as the different names for god (the term Elohim does imply the Hebrews believed or at least acknowledged the existence of other gods) makes one wonder whether they picked one, namely Yahweh, and chose to worship him exclusively.

The thing is, "Elohim," when used in the Torah, generally refers to a singular entity, at least judging by context. If the entity is a plural acting as one, he is so unified as to be practically Trinitarian.

"Makes one wonder" is, quite literally, all the evidence you have, and that is enough to support ancient aliens. No offense.

None taken.

Still, that only works in a Trinitarian model (which is something I don't agree with, since the very concept of the Trinity itself is more political in nature than anything, and has a whole whopping two verses in the Bible to back it up, one of which was entirely invented at a Synod/Council). By any other reasonable reading of the Bible, it means one god amongst many, which in the context of its use by Joshua, means the worship of Yahweh above all the other gods (presumably, Canaanite ones).

[Venerable Bede]

Well, you speculated that YHWH is a rendition of El. But maybe I misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

No I said the earliest Hebrews we had evidence of were polytheistic

They're frequently polytheistic in the Bible as well, that's a running theme in regard to God getting angry at them.