Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Hey! I guess I should introduce myself, maybe? I don't know what the protocol is.

I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox Christian, and I am really interested in the topic of religion/theology. I used to use NationStates years ago but forgot all about it. Decided to come back and saw this thread, it caught my eye as one of my interests. I'm looking forward to discussing more with people here!

Welcome to the thread!

Be careful, this place has arguments that are longer than some of the worst fanfics I have ever read.

Not that often, only when egregious heresy shows up.

[Dylar]

Welcome to the thread!

Be careful, this place has arguments that are longer than some of the worst fanfics I have ever read.

Not that often, only when egregious heresy shows up.

Which happens like once every month, or two months...

[Shazbotdom]

Here is one of my scathing about Christianity

I have been told the idea that things in society have got so evil and dark today that the world is going to end. I'm also told that God is punishing us (or at least America) for turning against him and he won't turn back to protecting us unless all of us submit to him. I'm extremely frustrated at God and Christianity, especially the very devout people. I wish more known or well-meaning Christians would actually not ignore me or say something that was pre-programmed like a robot to me when I tell them my own personal beliefs about God, sexuality, Heaven, etc. I wish they can acknowledge that I have a sensitive heart-but no, as long as God is and never changes and is absolute about everything, I don't want to come back to that guy after I chose to turn my back on him.

He doesn't even care if something that was totally not "normal" and universally catastrophic would happen. We are not protected from things like North Korea and their ever increasingly threatening missiles. I can't say with any confidence that anything bad like that won't ever happen in my lifetime.

I know we do have free will he gave us, but it's not the point. By now, I think I wish God didn't exist. I am always shamed by everyone and the church itself to submit to him.

Placeholder for my $0.02

[Salus Maior]

Welcome to the thread!

Be careful, this place has arguments that are longer than some of the worst fanfics I have ever read.

Not that often, only when egregious heresy shows up.

Or the rare Catholic-Orthodox fight.

We should have another one of those sometime.

[The Parkus Empire]

Saying someone sins is condemning them.

Yes it is.

And so f*cking what? Is pronouncing someone guilty of sin a crime? No, it is our duty to reveal sinners and help them redeem themselves through love, understanding and compassion. Shutting out the sins of others and doing nothing to help them is lazy and goes against the lessons of the New Testament.

Calling a non-Christian a sinner isn't helping them redeem themselves at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think going around to pluck the motes out of the eyes of others is your "duty". "Sinner" is the worse possible condemnation you can make of someone--calling them a clumsy idiot, or ugly or even a racial slur pales in comparison to that, because God does not hold any of those things to be bad or wrong.

[Salus Maior]

Yes it is.

And so f*cking what? Is pronouncing someone guilty of sin a crime? No, it is our duty to reveal sinners and help them redeem themselves through love, understanding and compassion. Shutting out the sins of others and doing nothing to help them is lazy and goes against the lessons of the New Testament.

Calling a non-Christian a sinner isn't helping them redeem themselves at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think going around to pluck the motes out of the eyes of others is your "duty". "Sinner" is the worse possible condemnation you can make of someone--calling them a clumsy idiot, or ugly or even a racial slur pales in comparison to that, because God does not hold any of those things to be bad or wrong.

Literally everyone is a sinner so calling someone a sinner would just be a statement of a fact. All people are in sin, which is why we need Christ.

[The Parkus Empire]

It's a breach of Christian morality to evaluate non-Christians by Christian morality.

Now I agree that non-Christians won't hold to the same morality standards as we Christians do, however, that being said, it is our goal to be a Light to the darkness of the world around us. It is not hateful to point out and guide non-Christians towards right, when the path they are on leads to eternal hell. When you love someone, you are going to be there to ensure that they are going along the right path. This goes for non-Christians as well. We are not told to be judgmental or act as any type of authority, but instead let God judge Righteously. However, we do have his Word to go by, and therefore can help guide people along, through love and compassion, towards the Truth.

Being a light to the darkness is being an pristine example and not judging others. It isn't going around correcting people who don't even believe in God. If someone is a Christian, yes it is your duty to correct them if they start to stray considerably, and you are not even to eat with self-identified Christians who disregard Christian morality. But if someone is not a Christian, you have absolutely no business pointing out their nakedness like Ham does with his father, Noah.

[Salus Maior]

There is only one morality. We shouldn't judge and condemn people, but we must say what is sinful.

Or just keep it to yourself.

Nope.

[Dylar]

Yes it is.

And so f*cking what? Is pronouncing someone guilty of sin a crime? No, it is our duty to reveal sinners and help them redeem themselves through love, understanding and compassion. Shutting out the sins of others and doing nothing to help them is lazy and goes against the lessons of the New Testament.

Calling a non-Christian a sinner isn't helping them redeem themselves at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think going around to pluck the motes out of the eyes of others is your "duty". "Sinner" is the worse possible condemnation you can make of someone--calling them a clumsy idiot, or ugly or even a racial slur pales in comparison to that, because God does not hold any of those things to be bad or wrong.

You...do know that the Catholic Church, and virtually every other Christian denomination all teach that everyone on this planet, from the pope to the layman, is a sinner, right?

[The Parkus Empire]

Calling a non-Christian a sinner isn't helping them redeem themselves at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think going around to pluck the motes out of the eyes of others is your "duty". "Sinner" is the worse possible condemnation you can make of someone--calling them a clumsy idiot, or ugly or even a racial slur pales in comparison to that, because God does not hold any of those things to be bad or wrong.

Literally everyone is a sinner so calling someone a sinner would just be a statement of a fact. All people are in sin, which is why we need Christ.

Whether or not it is a statement of fact that someone has a mote in their eye has zero to do with whether or not it is your business to point it out. I seriously doubt you can even keep track of your own sins and make a perfect account of them, and you dare to start making an accounting of the sins of non-Christians? How can you seriously claim remorse while doing this?

[The Parkus Empire]

Calling a non-Christian a sinner isn't helping them redeem themselves at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think going around to pluck the motes out of the eyes of others is your "duty". "Sinner" is the worse possible condemnation you can make of someone--calling them a clumsy idiot, or ugly or even a racial slur pales in comparison to that, because God does not hold any of those things to be bad or wrong.

You...do know that the Catholic Church, and virtually every other Christian denomination all teach that everyone on this planet, from the pope to the layman, is a sinner, right?

Yes, and? How does everyone having a mote in their eye make it your business to call them out on it? I was baptized Orthodox Catholic last month, and what I was taught is that you are to presume everyone except for you is going to heaven, and to worry about your own repentance. An ounce of fixing your own soul is worth seventy tons of talking the ears off others in bringing people to Christianity.

[Dylar]

Literally everyone is a sinner so calling someone a sinner would just be a statement of a fact. All people are in sin, which is why we need Christ.

Whether or not it is a statement of fact that someone has a mote in their eye has zero to do with whether or not it is your business to point it out. I seriously doubt you can even keep track of your own sins and make a perfect account of them, and you dare to start making an accounting of the sins of non-Christians? How can you seriously claim remorse while doing this?

You see, when you go to a confessional, the first thing you do before you enter is to examine your conscience. "What did I do wrong in the x amount of time since my last confession?" and because nobody can remember every single sin that they committed when they enter the confessional, the penitent usually says the sins he can remember and then finishes with a "and all the sins that I cannot remember."

[Salus Maior]

Literally everyone is a sinner so calling someone a sinner would just be a statement of a fact. All people are in sin, which is why we need Christ.

Whether or not it is a statement of fact that someone has a mote in their eye has zero to do with whether or not it is your business to point it out. I seriously doubt you can even keep track of your own sins and make a perfect account of them, and you dare to start making an accounting of the sins of non-Christians? How can you seriously claim remorse while doing this?

I fully accept my sins, and that I'm a sinner and I'm never going to be perfect. Anyway, I would only mention if something was sinful if they asked me or it was relevant, like if they were trying to be a better Christian (although there's much better people to ask than me). I don't 'keep track' of what other people do.

[The Parkus Empire]

Whether or not it is a statement of fact that someone has a mote in their eye has zero to do with whether or not it is your business to point it out. I seriously doubt you can even keep track of your own sins and make a perfect account of them, and you dare to start making an accounting of the sins of non-Christians? How can you seriously claim remorse while doing this?

You see, when you go to a confessional, the first thing you do before you enter is to examine your conscience. "What did I do wrong in the x amount of time since my last confession?" and because nobody can remember every single sin that they committed when they enter the confessional, the penitent usually says the sins he can remember and then finishes with a "and all the sins that I cannot remember."

I write my down, personally.

[The Parkus Empire]

Whether or not it is a statement of fact that someone has a mote in their eye has zero to do with whether or not it is your business to point it out. I seriously doubt you can even keep track of your own sins and make a perfect account of them, and you dare to start making an accounting of the sins of non-Christians? How can you seriously claim remorse while doing this?

I fully accept my sins, and that I'm a sinner and I'm never going to be perfect. Anyway, I would only mention if something was sinful if they asked me or it was relevant, like if they were trying to be a better Christian (although there's much better people to ask than me). I don't 'keep track' of what other people do.

This obviously has zero to do with non-Christians, which is what we're discussing here.

[Dylar]

You...do know that the Catholic Church, and virtually every other Christian denomination all teach that everyone on this planet, from the pope to the layman, is a sinner, right?

Yes, and? How does everyone having a mote in their eye make it your business to call them out on it? I was baptized Orthodox Catholic last month, and what I was taught is that you are to presume everyone except for you is going to heaven, and to worry about your own repentance. An ounce of fixing your own soul is worth seventy tons of talking the ears off others in bringing people to Christianity.

It's our business to help them. If we know what sins someone has committed, it is our duty to help them get back on the right track. That's not "calling someone out." Calling someone out is going out on the street and yelling "Hey, this guy did x, let's condemn him!"

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

hello fellows. remember me?

I've changed a fair bit since I last posted in this thread...

[The Parkus Empire]

Yes, and? How does everyone having a mote in their eye make it your business to call them out on it? I was baptized Orthodox Catholic last month, and what I was taught is that you are to presume everyone except for you is going to heaven, and to worry about your own repentance. An ounce of fixing your own soul is worth seventy tons of talking the ears off others in bringing people to Christianity.

It's our business to help them. If we know what sins someone has committed, it is our duty to help them get back on the right track. That's not "calling someone out." Calling someone out is going out on the street and yelling "Hey, this guy did x, let's condemn him!"

You want to help them, intoxicate them with the fragrance of your soul. Telling a non-Christian they are a sinner does not help them a whit. I in fact would worry that would make my own judgement more rigorous. According to what measure you judge others, you will be judged. I take that in frequent consideration. I do not think it will help if I point out that, "I just factually pointed out the mote in his eye, I didn't judge him for it, just factually pointed it out."

[The Parkus Empire]

Hey! I guess I should introduce myself, maybe? I don't know what the protocol is.

I'm an (Eastern) Orthodox Christian, and I am really interested in the topic of religion/theology. I used to use NationStates years ago but forgot all about it. Decided to come back and saw this thread, it caught my eye as one of my interests. I'm looking forward to discussing more with people here!

Hello, hello!

[The Parkus Empire]

hello fellows? remember me?

I've changed a fair bit since I last posted in this thread...

Theologically, or?

[Salus Maior]

You want to help them, intoxicate them with the fragrance of your soul. Telling a non-Christian they are a sinner does not help them a whit. I in fact would worry that would make my own judgement more rigorous. According to what measure you judge others, you will be judged. I take that in frequent consideration. I do not think it will help if I point out that, "I just factually pointed out the mote in his eye, I didn't judge him for it, just factually pointed it out."

That's vague.

And there's also a difference between telling someone they're in sin out of concern or as an attempt to help them, and doing so to make yourself seem like a better person. Which is what the speck/log in-the-eye parable means. As in "look at that sinner, I don't sin as much as him!".

[Guelder]

I'm not an Christian but i'm interested in the religion

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

hello fellows? remember me?

I've changed a fair bit since I last posted in this thread...

hai

I'm not an Christian but i'm interested in the religion

Join the Catholics, we have wine and cookies.

[Salus Maior]

I'm not an Christian but i'm interested in the religion

Cool.

[The Parkus Empire]

That's vague.

It's a term Gogol used regarding defending the Church from attacks Jesuits were making at the time: "Only one kind of propaganda is possible for us—our own lives. We must defend our Church with our lives, for she is life; and we must proclaim her truth by the fragrance of our souls."

And there's also a difference between telling someone they're in sin out of concern or as an attempt to help them, and doing so to make yourself seem like a better person. Which is what the speck/log in-the-eye parable means. As in "look at that sinner, I don't sin as much as him!".

"Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?"