Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Philjia]

Of course your church fell to heresy. It accepted the Pauline epistles as doctrine.

Why are the Pauline epistles heresy? Because they say things you personally don't like?

That's not any basis for truth.

Because they constantly contradict the gospels, often to comedic effect. Romans 13:11 to 13:12 is particularly funny in the context of Luke 21:8. The contradiction between 1 Timothy 5:17 and Matthew 10:8, however, takes the biscuit.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Why are the Pauline epistles heresy? Because they say things you personally don't like?

That's not any basis for truth.

Because they constantly contradict the gospels, often to comedic effect. Romans 13:11 to 13:12 is particularly funny in the context of Luke 21:8. The contradiction between 1 Timothy 5:17 and Matthew 10:8, however, takes the biscuit.

If the Apostles thought that Paul was contradicting them, then why did they accept him? Many of them were still alive, as were those that they taught directly.

[Salus Maior]

Why are the Pauline epistles heresy? Because they say things you personally don't like?

That's not any basis for truth.

Because they constantly contradict the gospels, often to comedic effect. Romans 13:11 to 13:12 is particularly funny in the context of Luke 21:8. The contradiction between 1 Timothy 5:17 and Matthew 10:8, however, takes the biscuit.

For one, Paul is not claiming to be Christ and never does so that point is moot. And secondly, he is echoing what Christ himself said in saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. "17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”" Matthew 4:17. He is stressing the immediate need to become saved, like Christ did.

1 Timothy 5:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Matthew 10:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

I don't think you have the right verses broseph.

[Philjia]

Because they constantly contradict the gospels, often to comedic effect. Romans 13:11 to 13:12 is particularly funny in the context of Luke 21:8. The contradiction between 1 Timothy 5:17 and Matthew 10:8, however, takes the biscuit.

For one, Paul is not claiming to be Christ and never does so that point is moot. And secondly, he is echoing what Christ himself said in saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. "17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”" Matthew 4:17. He is stressing the immediate need to become saved, like Christ did.

1 Timothy 5:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Matthew 10:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

I don't think you have the right verses broseph.

1 Timothy 5:17 and 5:18.

[Salus Maior]

For one, Paul is not claiming to be Christ and never does so that point is moot. And secondly, he is echoing what Christ himself said in saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. "17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”" Matthew 4:17. He is stressing the immediate need to become saved, like Christ did.

1 Timothy 5:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Matthew 10:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

I don't think you have the right verses broseph.

1 Timothy 5:17 and 5:18.

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”[b]

No contradiction there still.

[Philjia]

1 Timothy 5:17 and 5:18.

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”[b]

No contradiction there still.

The lines from Matthew are telling the apostles that they shouldn't be getting paid to preach. The line from Timothy is saying that actually they should get rewarded a whole lot.

[United Muscovite Nations]

For one, Paul is not claiming to be Christ and never does so that point is moot. And secondly, he is echoing what Christ himself said in saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. "17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”" Matthew 4:17. He is stressing the immediate need to become saved, like Christ did.

1 Timothy 5:17 New International Version (NIV)

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Matthew 10:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

I don't think you have the right verses broseph.

1 Timothy 5:17 and 5:18.

1 Timothy 5:18King James Version (KJV)

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Are you seriously saying that telling people to freely give good works is a major contradiction in telling people to give respect to those who do good works?

I mean, that's a pretty weak contradiction.

[United Muscovite Nations]

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”[b]

No contradiction there still.

The lines from Matthew are telling the apostles that they shouldn't be getting paid to preach. The line from Timothy is saying that actually they should get rewarded a whole lot.

He's saying their reward should be honor. He doesn't say they are worthy of double wages or double payment, but double honor. The "wages" the "worker" deserves is respect.

[Diopolis]

Moreover, if Christians adhered to the idiotic doctrine you are preaching, Peacekeepers, we would do absolutely nothing to stop genocide. It would be far worse than the situation we have today.

Killing people is always a sin, but if not committing one sin leads to worse sins, then what do we do?

As I was once told, there will always be evil people in this world willing to kill for their country/family/self preservation/etc.
We Christians are meant to die all day long for the Lord's sake, as he has said for us to do. You can't accept it because it is not natural but spiritual. All the things you are questioning are in the scripture in the post you are commenting on.

You are confusing the duty to accept martyrdom with some weird notion of Christian pacifism. Even in the first centuries of the church, Christians were soldiers. Killing and fighting was part of the duty of their state in life. What did Christ say when a group of soldiers came to Him seeking instructions on how to live? He did not tell them to stop being soldiers(which would necessarily involve fighting). Instead, He told them to stop extorting money from the local population. From this we can obviously deduce that extortion is a sin but fighting is not.

[Diopolis]

I see your trap.
Sin/evil is against god. Once you repent the sin is forgiven, assuming you were baptized first. It is very simple.
I have a study on salvation/baptism if you have any questions on that.

You didn't answer the rest of my question: should we allow murder, genocide, etc. to be committed against others without any consequences?

And, if we can repent of sins, why can't you acknowledge that a relatively minor sin may be considered acceptable to God if it is for the purpose of avoiding a worse sin, or for stopping the commission of greater sins?

Because it isn't. It's just that violence is not necessarily sinful.

[Gim]

You didn't answer the rest of my question: should we allow murder, genocide, etc. to be committed against others without any consequences?

And, if we can repent of sins, why can't you acknowledge that a relatively minor sin may be considered acceptable to God if it is for the purpose of avoiding a worse sin, or for stopping the commission of greater sins?

Because it isn't. It's just that violence is not necessarily sinful.

Well, to be frank, causing a sin depends on what is at the heart of the òne carrying out the action. God weighs motives, not outward actions.

[Conservative Hellenic State]

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

[ThePeacekeepers]

As I was once told, there will always be evil people in this world willing to kill for their country/family/self preservation/etc.
We Christians are meant to die all day long for the Lord's sake, as he has said for us to do. You can't accept it because it is not natural but spiritual. All the things you are questioning are in the scripture in the post you are commenting on.

You are confusing the duty to accept martyrdom with some weird notion of Christian pacifism. Even in the first centuries of the church, Christians were soldiers. Killing and fighting was part of the duty of their state in life. What did Christ say when a group of soldiers came to Him seeking instructions on how to live? He did not tell them to stop being soldiers(which would necessarily involve fighting). Instead, He told them to stop extorting money from the local population. From this we can obviously deduce that extortion is a sin but fighting is not.

Matthew 5:7-9
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:38-39
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:44
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
John the Baptist told roman soldiers in,
Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
1 Peter 3:9 says,
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
Ephesians 6:15 says,
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
When Paul was struck in the mouth he did not retaliate with violence,
Acts 23:2-3
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Revelation 13:10 says,
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Matthew 26:51-52
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Christ also says we are to be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove,
Matt 10:16
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Romans 12:17-21
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Of course this goes against human nature. But Christ followers are to be separate and different than worldly people. They are peaceful, loving, and kind. When a man kills another man he takes not only his life but also that mans chance to repent and be saved. For all who die in sin are damned.
This is why Christians can not harm or kill anyone for any reason.
Romans 8:36
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

If you look Christ explicitly says to put up the sword into its place, that whosoever takes up the sword shall perish with the sword. We are to resist not evil. Recompense no man evil for evil, overcome evil with good. Revelation says he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. John says to the solders who ask him what they should do and he says do violence to no man.

We will be killed all the day long, accounted as sheep for slaughter. We love not our lives unto death.

[Gim]

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

It will pass, it will pass.

[Conservative Hellenic State]

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

It will pass, it will pass.

Surely it will, but the question is when.. I believe soon, it might take decades but surely on the 2000's

[Pasong Tirad]

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

Different set of beliefs/different morality from you =/= immoral.

[Conservative Hellenic State]

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

Different set of beliefs/different morality from you =/= immoral.

Right

[Hakons]

Christ Himself when he expressed the necessity of baptism and communion.

So are you justified by faith alone or not?

It depends on what being faithful actually means. We clearly also must do good works, because we know that faith without works is dead. If you believe in the Gospel, you must do what the Gospel says.

What's up with all the hateful atheists? atheists are usually immoral..

Different set of beliefs/different morality from you =/= immoral.

Morality is not subjective. We have an objective morality from scripture and the Church. If one does not follow Christian morality, they are immoral.

[Pasong Tirad]

Different set of beliefs/different morality from you =/= immoral.

Morality is not subjective. We have an objective morality from scripture and the Church. If one does not follow Christian morality, they are immoral.

I'd disagree (not with the subjective morality part, with the immoral part). Not following Christian morality means they don't follow Christian morality. If they do good without following Christian morality, is that immoral? No. Whenever people do good, they are being Christian. Not following Christian morality just means that whether or not they do good is up to a hit-and-miss because what they believe to be good may not be Christian.

Having some difficulty trying to explain this, I hope that makes sense.

[Gim]

So are you justified by faith alone or not?

It depends on what being faithful actually means. We clearly also must do good works, because we know that faith without works is dead. If you believe in the Gospel, you must do what the Gospel says.

Different set of beliefs/different morality from you =/= immoral.

Morality is not subjective. We have an objective morality from scripture and the Church. If one does not follow Christian morality, they are immoral.

What may be immoral in Christian standards may be moral in Islamic ones or those of other religions. I think morality is more subjective than objective in that sense.

[Angleter]

Because they constantly contradict the gospels, often to comedic effect. Romans 13:11 to 13:12 is particularly funny in the context of Luke 21:8. The contradiction between 1 Timothy 5:17 and Matthew 10:8, however, takes the biscuit.

If the Apostles thought that Paul was contradicting them, then why did they accept him? Many of them were still alive, as were those that they taught directly.

Including, explicitly, one of the Gospel evangelists himself (Luke).

[Hakons]

Morality is not subjective. We have an objective morality from scripture and the Church. If one does not follow Christian morality, they are immoral.

I'd disagree (not with the subjective morality part, with the immoral part). Not following Christian morality means they don't follow Christian morality. If they do good without following Christian morality, is that immoral? No. Whenever people do good, they are being Christian. Not following Christian morality just means that whether or not they do good is up to a hit-and-miss because what they believe to be good may not be Christian.

Having some difficulty trying to explain this, I hope that makes sense.

I think I understand. If a person does good acts that a Christian should do, but not actually being a Christian, they are still being moral. The same goes for avoiding bad acts.

It depends on what being faithful actually means. We clearly also must do good works, because we know that faith without works is dead. If you believe in the Gospel, you must do what the Gospel says.



Morality is not subjective. We have an objective morality from scripture and the Church. If one does not follow Christian morality, they are immoral.

What may be immoral in Christian standards may be moral in Islamic ones or those of other religions. I think morality is more subjective than objective in that sense.

I see your point, but that assumes all religions are equal, and therefore all moralities are equal. This view is incompatible with Christianity. There is one God, one Law, and one morality.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Catholic Archbishop of Ottawa apologizes for giant robotic spider

[Neanderthaland]

Catholic Archbishop of Ottawa apologizes for giant robotic spider

making Christmas
making Christmas
fa la la

[Dylar]

Catholic Archbishop of Ottawa apologizes for giant robotic spider

I think that giant spider looks pretty friggin awesome. I mean, sure, don't put it by the cathedral, but still.