Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[The Alma Mater]

I have to disagree. Light and darkness aren't metaphorical but literal, God does create both light and darkness, which makes sense because darkness is the absence of light. Further more the "evil" or rather ra' is not juxtaposed with "good" but "peace". It's clear the passage is referring to calamity, or negative happenings, and not a ethical/moral quality of "evil".

God is a star. *nodnod*

God looks quite pretty.

Though it seems she does have a dark spot as well...

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I have to disagree. Light and darkness aren't metaphorical but literal, God does create both light and darkness, which makes sense because darkness is the absence of light. Further more the "evil" or rather ra' is not juxtaposed with "good" but "peace". It's clear the passage is referring to calamity, or negative happenings, and not a ethical/moral quality of "evil".

God is a star. *nodnod*

Not a star, but he makes stars, and stars make photons which are light. Therefore by transitive property....

[Luminesa]

Tell me FRE, what number constitutes a few? Give me a figure.

Where Im from, its 'more than 2 but less than a dozen'

Why less than a dozen?

[The Alma Mater]

God is a star. *nodnod*

Not a star, but he makes stars, and stars make photons which are light. Therefore by transitive property....

But God made light before he made the stars according to Genesis

[Luminesa]

Your Orthodox music and ritual are beautiful, but the key reason why I cannot be a Christian is because the Church is backward, and refuses to even contemplate updating itself to suit modern society, and accept people like me - a gay disabled man.

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. - Luke 12:32

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13

Jesus says that the path to salvation is narrow, and few will find it; he refers to his followers as a "little flock." Thus, the Orthodox Church, with membership in the hundreds of millions, cannot be the true Church because it is too large; the same applies to the Church of Rome. The true Church must be small in number, because the Gospel declares that few will be able to find it; thus, the roads provided by the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, roads found by vast numbers of people, are roads to destruction, and their teachings are not true Christian teachings.

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. - Luke 12:32

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13

Jesus says that the path to salvation is narrow, and few will find it; he refers to his followers as a "little flock." Thus, the Orthodox Church, with membership in the hundreds of millions, cannot be the true Church because it is too large; the same applies to the Church of Rome. The true Church must be small in number, because the Gospel declares that few will be able to find it; thus, the roads provided by the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, roads found by vast numbers of people, are roads to destruction, and their teachings are not true Christian teachings.

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

....This is the most shade I've ever seen you throw....

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Not a star, but he makes stars, and stars make photons which are light. Therefore by transitive property....

But God made light before he made the stars according to Genesis

The stars produce light but they are not "light" themselves. After all light bulbs aren't stars.

It says he invented "light". And then he made "lights".

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Where Im from, its 'more than 2 but less than a dozen'

Why less than a dozen?

Cause a dozen is the standard quantity in food packaging.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. - Luke 12:32

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13

Jesus says that the path to salvation is narrow, and few will find it; he refers to his followers as a "little flock." Thus, the Orthodox Church, with membership in the hundreds of millions, cannot be the true Church because it is too large; the same applies to the Church of Rome. The true Church must be small in number, because the Gospel declares that few will be able to find it; thus, the roads provided by the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, roads found by vast numbers of people, are roads to destruction, and their teachings are not true Christian teachings.

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

Jesus.

I... Ummm.... yes. Nothing to add here, really.

[Constantinopolis]

I missed responding to this earlier, so I want to respond now:

Your Orthodox music and ritual are beautiful, but the key reason why I cannot be a Christian is because the Church is backward, and refuses to even contemplate updating itself to suit modern society, and accept people like me - a gay disabled man.

What do you mean by "accept", though? Can you be a member of the Orthodox Church as a gay disabled man? Of course. That goes without saying.

But it also goes without saying that you would be sinning if you were to have sex with another man. This doesn't make you any different from anyone else - we are all sinners and the Church is a hospital for sinners - but it does mean that it would be expected of you to make an honest effort to struggle against your sins and slowly defeat them over time. In other words, as a gay man, you should not have sex, or if you are currently having sex, you should attempt to do it less and less until you eventually stop completely.

Is this what makes you say that the Church does not "accept" you - because of statements like the one I just made above? The problem is, what seems to you like a demand for acceptance, seems to us like a demand for lowering standards. The Orthodox mindset is that we should be our own greatest critics. We should judge ourselves harshly - harsher than anyone else judges us. Each Christian should think of himself or herself as the greatest of all sinners. "It's best to think that everyone else is going to Heaven, and you alone are going to Hell."

So, asking the Church to change her standards in a way that makes them more lenient goes directly contrary to this mindset. I mean, if you want the Church to accept that a certain thing you are doing is not sinful (whatever that thing may be), then you're not judging yourself harshly, are you? You are not thinking of yourself as the greatest of all sinners - actually, you are trying to prove to yourself that your sins are not so great after all.

This is why the Orthodox Church is so strongly opposed to "updating herself to suit the modern world" - not because we are firmly convinced that the 5th century was the Best Century, but because the update you are talking about goes directly against the spirit of our faith. We can change things, but never in the direction of lowering standards. Standards should always be kept high. In fact, the higher and more demanding they are, the better. The more things we deny ourselves, the better. Not everyone is called to be a monk or a nun, of course, but everyone should strive towards that ideal as much as they can.

[Thermodolia]

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. - Luke 12:32

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:13

Jesus says that the path to salvation is narrow, and few will find it; he refers to his followers as a "little flock." Thus, the Orthodox Church, with membership in the hundreds of millions, cannot be the true Church because it is too large; the same applies to the Church of Rome. The true Church must be small in number, because the Gospel declares that few will be able to find it; thus, the roads provided by the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, roads found by vast numbers of people, are roads to destruction, and their teachings are not true Christian teachings.

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

Damn Gurl! You good

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

Imagine my shock; more personal attacks.

"You have no understanding!"

"You have no consistent reasoning!"

"You're a Nazi! Maybe you should go to Stormfront!"

Ad hominid attacks are not an argument, believe it or not. An argument is supposed to attack somebody's statements, not them, and yet you have demonstrated a non-stop stream of attacks against me. You this, you that, and very little addressing statements. If you can't make a response to me without attacking my character, maybe you should use this forum's ignore list feature and respond to someone else. Good day.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

Imagine my shock; more personal attacks.

"You have no understanding!"

"You have no consistent reasoning!"

"You're a Nazi! Maybe you should go to Stormfront!"

Ad hominid attacks are not an argument, believe it or not. An argument is supposed to attack somebody's statements, not them, and yet you have demonstrated a non-stop stream of attacks against me. You this, you that, and very little addressing statements. If you can't make a response to me without attacking my character, maybe you should use this forum's ignore list feature and respond to someone else. Good day.

She did attack your argument though, by pointing out that you use the reverse of an argumentum ad populum fallacy you accuse us of using.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yep. Absolutely no proper understanding of Matthew's Gospel. Matthew 28 says to preach to the ends of the Earth. You are simply taking verses and squelching them together to justify why nobody wants to be a part of your cult.

Christ never says any specific number of people will find the narrow way. He says "few", but when He says "few" He is referring to the baptized Christians who have chosen not to live by the world, but to live by Christ. Christ never mentions any specific number, merely two groups: "the World" and "the members of the Covenant". The Catholics and the Orthodox are those "members of the Covenant". Whether or not, however, they decide to ultimately cooperate with God's Grace is their decision.

And finally, you say that you cannot base a Church's truth around the number of people who follow that specific truth, and yet here you are, saying that you can base a Church's truth around its number. You have no consistent reasoning, and as a result, your argument falls apart. Perhaps you would have better luck discussing your theology with the people on Stormfront. Have a good day.

Imagine my shock; more personal attacks.

"You have no understanding!"

"You have no consistent reasoning!"

"You're a Nazi! Maybe you should go to Stormfront!"

Ad hominid attacks are not an argument, believe it or not. An argument is supposed to attack somebody's statements, not them, and yet you have demonstrated a non-stop stream of attacks against me. You this, you that, and very little addressing statements. If you can't make a response to me without attacking my character, maybe you should use this forum's ignore list feature and respond to someone else. Good day.

Well, you really have no consistency, no historical backing of your opinions, and certainly no scriptural basis from which you can pull your assertions from since for starters the Bible is not a gnostic document, nor was it written to support a gnostic truth. It was written to support the leading Christian thought of the time, that being the basics on which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and plenty of Protestant churches rely upon as dogma.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I also am going to address this, yesterday I was doing shit.

I didn't say that Jesus and God are different deities, I said that the God of Israel and the God of Christianity are different deities. Regardless, at what point does deviation from traditional theology make somebody completely un-Christian? Why are some doctrines acceptable to hold an unorthodox view on, while disagreeing on another doctrine will make somebody an apostate? And who is to be the judge of what doctrines are and are not acceptable to be deviated from?

Were Arians completely un-Christian apostates for their disagreements on major doctrines with the Church Fathers? Are Protestants completely un-Christian apostates for their disagreements on major doctrines with Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

[Diopolis]

Well, it's time to mark today's Great Feast of the Orthodox Church, which is the only one of the 12 Great Feasts that always falls on a Thursday...

The Ascension of our Lord

(Image)

“The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.”
-- Acts of the Apostles 1:1-12

The Ascension is a moment of transition. It is an end, but also a beginning. It is the end of the Earthly ministry of Christ, the final fulfillment of everything that our Lord came to do among us. He united human nature to Himself, and was born in the flesh; He lived and grew up as a man; He was baptized in the Jordan and gathered disciples and preached the Gospel to them; He performed many miracles, healing the sick and even resurrecting the dead; He was betrayed and crucified, and He died; through His death He destroyed the power of death and smashed the gates of Hades, opening Heaven to us; and He rose from the dead on the third day, in the flesh, becoming the first-born of the dead, the first to undergo the bodily resurrection that we will all experience at the end of time. Then He spent an additional 40 days with His disciples, teaching them about things they had previously misunderstood, and fully revealing His mission to them. And finally... "He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father", as the Creed says.

So this is it. This is when Christ leaves our world, promising to return at the Last Judgment. It is the end of the Gospels... But it is the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles.

It is a beginning, because Christ instructs the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem, and ten days later the Holy Spirit descends upon them, and the Church is founded, and the history of the salvation of humanity truly begins. That will be marked by another Great Feast - Pentecost - but it is already prefigured in the Ascension.

And of course, although He has ascended back to Heaven, Christ never left us. As He said, "I am with you always, to the very end of the age". And He meant this quite literally. He is with us and in us, not only in spirit but in flesh and blood, through the Eucharist. We are all members of Christ. In fact, He is even more present with us after His ascension than He was before. Because prior to His ascension, while He lived on Earth, His presence was limited in space and time. Being a man and living as a man, He could only be in one place at a time. If He was in Galilee, then He wasn't in Judea. If He was in Jerusalem, then He wasn't in Capernaum. His Apostles and some other disciples followed Him around, of course, but most people could not. So, most people could only encounter Christ once or twice, if He happened to travel to their village or town, or to some place close enough for them to reach. Even His disciples didn't get to be with Him very much if they were not traveling with Him (for example Lazarus, and his sisters Mary and Martha).

This was fine for a while, but Christ wanted His good news preached to all the peoples of the world, unto the ends of the Earth, and He wanted all to partake of communion with Him. This would require something very different from a single traveling preacher - even if that preacher also happened to be God incarnate. What was required was to have many preachers, each able to carry Christ with him everywhere. What was required was the Church. And that is why Christ had to ascend. He has ascended to become the Head of the Church, and the central pillar of our communion, the tree trunk on which we grow as branches. He has ascended to join the Father, as we should also seek to ascend through repentance to join Him.

Here is some music for the occasion on YouTube:

Troparion and Kontakion for the Ascension (in English)
Troparion for the Ascension (in English)
Troparion for the Ascension (in Bulgarian)
Katavasia for the Ascension of Christ (in Bulgarian)
Troparion for the Ascension (in Romanian)
Axion for the Ascension (in Romanian)

Troparion:

You ascended in Glory, O Christ our God,
Having gladdened Your disciples by Your promise of the Holy Spirit,
And Your blessing confirmed their belief
That You are indeed God's Son
The Redeemer of the world!

Kontakion:

When You had joined Earth to Heaven,
And fulfilled Your plan of redemption,
You ascended in Glory, O Christ our God,
While remaining in our midst,
For You assured us who love You
That no one can prevail against us,
Since You Yourself are with us.

Indeed, happy ascension, in the Catholic church as well.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Well, you really have (1:) no consistency, (2:) no historical backing of your opinions, (3:) and certainly no scriptural basis from which you can pull your assertions from since for starters the Bible is not a gnostic document, nor was it written to support a gnostic truth. (4:) It was written to support the leading Christian thought of the time, that being the basics on which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and plenty of Protestant churches rely upon as dogma.

Alright, let's go over some of these claims.

1: Literally the one and only reason why Luminesa thinks I "have no consistency" is because I said the scriptures lead to me to the belief that the right school of Christianity will be small, and I also criticized the argument from a couple people who said "the majority believe this is true, therefore it is true." Even if you consider that to be an inconsistency, absolutely everything else I have said has been totally consistent.

2: Bandwagon fallacy.

3: I posted a list of over a dozen different verses from the Tanakh and over a dozen different verses from the Gospel and compared them side by side, showing the contradictory behaviors and statements. Tarsonis briefly addressed one or two, Luminesa responded with "YOU DON'T HAVE UNDERSTANDING!1!1!!11," and nobody else even made an effort to refute it. Oh, but I guess they don't count because I was the one who posted them and I'm not a Nicene Christian.

4: Are you seriously trying to say that the Bible was written in the second century to support "leading Christian thought?" The Tanakh is supposed to predate Christianity rather significantly. And if the entirety of the Gospel was simply conjured up by men to support their opinions, well, that Gospel would have no value as it would be the words of men and not God, thus rendering Christianity as a man-made religion.

And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

As I have said before, I find that they are different deities because they behave in contradictory ways, and as for the verses which show said contradictions, I already gave them, several times, in fact, and the only person who even made an effort to refute the verses themselves was Tarsonis; Luminesa simply threw out an ad hominid and tried to change the subject, and nobody else even bothered to respond to them.

The God of the Jews	The God of Jesus
And out of the ground the Lord Yahweh made every tree to grow...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:9	For a corrupt tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bringeth forth corrupt fruit. Luke 6:43 "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit." Matthew 12:33
And the Lord Yahweh called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?" Genesis 3:9	But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answering said unto them, "Why do you reason in your hearts?" Luke 5:22
Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot... Exodus 21:24	And unto him that smiteth thee on the cheek offer also the other... Luke 6:29
...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him [Elisha]...and [he] cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23	And they brought young children to Him...and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But Jesus...said unto them "Allow the little children to come to Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God." Mark 10:13
And if a woman have issue, and if her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days; whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even... and if a woman have an issue of her blood...beyond the time of her separation ...she shall be unclean. Leviticus 15:19	And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living on physicians, neither could be healed of any, came up behind [Jesus], and touched the border of His garment: and immediately her issue of blood ceased. Luke 8:43
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. Deuteronomy 24:1	Whosoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. Mark 10:11
Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them. Psalm 21:12 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. Psalm 18:4	Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand the evil one...taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery arrows of the wicked. Ephesians 6:16
Clouds and darkness are round about him... Psalm 97:2 He sent darkness, and made it dark... Psalm 105:28 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. Psalm 78:49	For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this Aeon, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord Yahweh do all these things. Isaiah 45:7	God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I the Lord your God am a jealous God. Exodus 20:5 ...for the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14	And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:16 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 1 Corinthians 13:4
He is a Jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord, then He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you... Joshua 24:13 For I the Lord God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Exodus 20:5	Love is never rude, never irritated, never resentful. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Then came Peter to Him, and said, "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I say not to you, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:23
I am Yahweh, that is my name- And my glory to another will I not give... Isaiah 42:8	And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with thine own self with the glory I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, Until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies...for the Lord fought for Israel. Joshua 10:12	Be ye angry, yet not committing sin; Let not the sun be going down upon your wrath. Ephesians 4:26
Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive: Thou hast received tribute from men. Psalm 68:18	Wherefore He saith, "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8

[Lady Scylla]

I also am going to address this, yesterday I was doing shit.

I didn't say that Jesus and God are different deities, I said that the God of Israel and the God of Christianity are different deities. Regardless, at what point does deviation from traditional theology make somebody completely un-Christian? Why are some doctrines acceptable to hold an unorthodox view on, while disagreeing on another doctrine will make somebody an apostate? And who is to be the judge of what doctrines are and are not acceptable to be deviated from?

Were Arians completely un-Christian apostates for their disagreements on major doctrines with the Church Fathers? Are Protestants completely un-Christian apostates for their disagreements on major doctrines with Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

The Cathars did interpret there being two. The God of the OT was an evil deity, while the NT was good. They felt the material word, including our bodies, were created by the bad God. Thus, all of it was tainted with sin. The good God created everything spiritual. Its a very interesting interpretation - sadly, much of it was lost thanks to the Church's crusade.

[Lady Scylla]

Well, you really have (1:) no consistency, (2:) no historical backing of your opinions, (3:) and certainly no scriptural basis from which you can pull your assertions from since for starters the Bible is not a gnostic document, nor was it written to support a gnostic truth. (4:) It was written to support the leading Christian thought of the time, that being the basics on which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and plenty of Protestant churches rely upon as dogma.

Alright, let's go over some of these claims.

1: Literally the one and only reason why Luminesa thinks I "have no consistency" is because I said the scriptures lead to me to the belief that the right school of Christianity will be small, and I also criticized the argument from a couple people who said "the majority believe this is true, therefore it is true." Even if you consider that to be an inconsistency, absolutely everything else I have said has been totally consistent.

2: Bandwagon fallacy.

3: I posted a list of over a dozen different verses from the Tanakh and over a dozen different verses from the Gospel and compared them side by side, showing the contradictory behaviors and statements. Tarsonis briefly addressed one or two, Luminesa responded with "YOU DON'T HAVE UNDERSTANDING!1!1!!11," and nobody else even made an effort to refute it. Oh, but I guess they don't count because I was the one who posted them and I'm not a Nicene Christian.

4: Are you seriously trying to say that the Bible was written in the second century to support "leading Christian thought?" The Tanakh is supposed to predate Christianity rather significantly. And if the entirety of the Gospel was simply conjured up by men to support their opinions, well, that Gospel would have no value as it would be the words of men and not God, thus rendering Christianity as a man-made religion.

And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

As I have said before, I find that they are different deities because they behave in contradictory ways, and as for the verses which show said contradictions, I already gave them, several times, in fact, and the only person who even made an effort to refute the verses themselves was Tarsonis; Luminesa simply threw out an ad hominid and tried to change the subject, and nobody else even bothered to respond to them.

The God of the Jews	The God of Jesus
And out of the ground the Lord Yahweh made every tree to grow...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:9	For a corrupt tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bringeth forth corrupt fruit. Luke 6:43 "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit." Matthew 12:33
And the Lord Yahweh called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?" Genesis 3:9	But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answering said unto them, "Why do you reason in your hearts?" Luke 5:22
Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot... Exodus 21:24	And unto him that smiteth thee on the cheek offer also the other... Luke 6:29
...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him [Elisha]...and [he] cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23	And they brought young children to Him...and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But Jesus...said unto them "Allow the little children to come to Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God." Mark 10:13
And if a woman have issue, and if her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days; whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even... and if a woman have an issue of her blood...beyond the time of her separation ...she shall be unclean. Leviticus 15:19	And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living on physicians, neither could be healed of any, came up behind [Jesus], and touched the border of His garment: and immediately her issue of blood ceased. Luke 8:43
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. Deuteronomy 24:1	Whosoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. Mark 10:11
Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them. Psalm 21:12 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. Psalm 18:4	Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand the evil one...taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery arrows of the wicked. Ephesians 6:16
Clouds and darkness are round about him... Psalm 97:2 He sent darkness, and made it dark... Psalm 105:28 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. Psalm 78:49	For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this Aeon, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord Yahweh do all these things. Isaiah 45:7	God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I the Lord your God am a jealous God. Exodus 20:5 ...for the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14	And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:16 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 1 Corinthians 13:4
He is a Jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord, then He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you... Joshua 24:13 For I the Lord God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Exodus 20:5	Love is never rude, never irritated, never resentful. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Then came Peter to Him, and said, "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I say not to you, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:23
I am Yahweh, that is my name- And my glory to another will I not give... Isaiah 42:8	And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with thine own self with the glory I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, Until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies...for the Lord fought for Israel. Joshua 10:12	Be ye angry, yet not committing sin; Let not the sun be going down upon your wrath. Ephesians 4:26
Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive: Thou hast received tribute from men. Psalm 68:18	Wherefore He saith, "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8

Ad hominid. Is this opposed to an ad corvid?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well, you really have (1:) no consistency, (2:) no historical backing of your opinions, (3:) and certainly no scriptural basis from which you can pull your assertions from since for starters the Bible is not a gnostic document, nor was it written to support a gnostic truth. (4:) It was written to support the leading Christian thought of the time, that being the basics on which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and plenty of Protestant churches rely upon as dogma.

Alright, let's go over some of these claims.

1: Literally the one and only reason why Luminesa thinks I "have no consistency" is because I said the scriptures lead to me to the belief that the right school of Christianity will be small, and I also criticized the argument from a couple people who said "the majority believe this is true, therefore it is true." Even if you consider that to be an inconsistency, absolutely everything else I have said has been totally consistent.

2: Bandwagon fallacy.

3: I posted a list of a over a dozen different verses from the Tanakh and over a dozen different verses from the Gospel and compared them side by side, showing the contradictory behaviors and statements. Tarsonis briefly addressed one or two, Luminesa responded with "YOU DON'T HAVE UNDERSTANDING!1!1!!11," and nobody else even made an effort to refute it. Oh, but I guess they don't count because I was the one who posted them and I'm not a Nicene Christian.

4: Are you seriously trying to say that the Bible was written in the second century to support "leading Christian thought?" The Tanakh is supposed to predate Christianity rather significantly. And if the entirety of the Gospel was simply conjured up by men to support their opinions, well, that Gospel would have no value as it would be the words of men and not God, thus rendering Christianity as a man-made religion.

And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

As I have said before, I find that they are different deities because they behave in contradictory ways, and as for the verses which show said contradictions, I already gave them, several times, in fact, and the only person who even made an effort to refute the verses themselves was Tarsonis; Luminesa simply threw out an ad hominid and tried to change the subject, and nobody else even bothered to respond to them.

The God of the Jews	The God of Jesus
And out of the ground the Lord Yahweh made every tree to grow...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:9	For a corrupt tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bringeth forth corrupt fruit. Luke 6:43 "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit." Matthew 12:33
And the Lord Yahweh called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?" Genesis 3:9	But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answering said unto them, "Why do you reason in your hearts?" Luke 5:22
Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot... Exodus 21:24	And unto him that smiteth thee on the cheek offer also the other... Luke 6:29
...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him [Elisha]...and [he] cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23	And they brought young children to Him...and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But Jesus...said unto them "Allow the little children to come to Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God." Mark 10:13
And if a woman have issue, and if her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days; whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even... and if a woman have an issue of her blood...beyond the time of her separation ...she shall be unclean. Leviticus 15:19	And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living on physicians, neither could be healed of any, came up behind [Jesus], and touched the border of His garment: and immediately her issue of blood ceased. Luke 8:43
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. Deuteronomy 24:1	Whosoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. Mark 10:11
Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them. Psalm 21:12 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. Psalm 18:4	Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand the evil one...taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery arrows of the wicked. Ephesians 6:16
Clouds and darkness are round about him... Psalm 97:2 He sent darkness, and made it dark... Psalm 105:28 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. Psalm 78:49	For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this Aeon, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord Yahweh do all these things. Isaiah 45:7	God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
I the Lord your God am a jealous God. Exodus 20:5 ...for the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14	And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:16 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 1 Corinthians 13:4
He is a Jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord, then He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you... Joshua 24:13 For I the Lord God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Exodus 20:5	Love is never rude, never irritated, never resentful. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Then came Peter to Him, and said, "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I say not to you, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:23
I am Yahweh, that is my name- And my glory to another will I not give... Isaiah 42:8	And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with thine own self with the glory I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, Until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies...for the Lord fought for Israel. Joshua 10:12	Be ye angry, yet not committing sin; Let not the sun be going down upon your wrath. Ephesians 4:26
Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive: Thou hast received tribute from men. Psalm 68:18	Wherefore He saith, "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8

I am not going to bother with points 1-4

However, with 4, I am going to go with yes, at the very least not written, but the Bible, as it stands today, is a collection of writings that reflects what the Orthodox churches believe, and not what you want them to as a gnostic. It's why everyone who is a Christian and owns a Bible is more than likely a Nicene Christian, because the Bible was compiled with Nicene Christianity in mind, or at least it had a heavy Nicene influence in compiling it. There's no reason to believe that the Bible isn't Nicene or at least its compilation wasn't influenced by Nicene thought.

As for your other reply, and the collection of verses, you're sniping at the historical verses of both the Old Testament up to Psalms and the New Testament. It is generally considered that the prophets foretold of the coming of Jesus and the compilation of the Old Testament by Christians is generally regarded as a narrative for the buildup of the New Testament which is when the prophesies were to be fulfilled. The only prophet you touch on in Isaiah, but even then, the only way you can believe that Yahweh and Jesus' God are different is if you take it for granted that Jesus and God are not one, and thus, they are of different substance, meaning, the only way you can say this is true is if you reject the trinity in its entirety. Not just one part of the trinity, but the concept of the trinity altogether and you say that Jesus is just some sort of demigod at the beck and call of God, but not equal to God, which is blasphemy in Christianity and would void everything that Christianity says about being saved through Jesus because then Jesus was a liar and if he is lesser than God then there's no salvation through Jesus, the new covenant was a lie, and we're all better off being Jews.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I also am going to address this, yesterday I was doing shit.



And from where do you find that the God of the Jewish people and the God of Christianity are different deities?

And the point from which deviation from traditional theology makes someone completely un-Christian is when said theology has nothing to do with Christianity. Slight differences of opinion in doctrine are fine, although two churches will sincerely believe the other is heretical if this happens. But there's a difference between heresy, and outright making shit up. The notion that the Bible is talking about two gods instead of just one would fall in the latter because there's nothing in the Bible that I know supports your notion of two deities.

The Cathars did interpret there being two. The God of the OT was an evil deity, while the NT was good. They felt the material word, including our bodies, were created by the bad God. Thus, all of it was tainted with sin. The good God created everything spiritual. Its a very interesting interpretation - sadly, much of it was lost thanks to the Church's crusade.

I can see why the Church would think squashing the Cathars was a good idea, honestly.

And I don't blame them. Cathar theology would have undermined the lynchpin of the church that it was supposed to be the continuation of the Jewish covenant. Would the church have admitted that there were two deities, one evil and the other good, it'd be an affront to their claims of continuity and thus their followers would have thought they either were liars, or that Jews had the truth, which would undermine Jesus' words and actions in life.

[Lady Scylla]

The Cathars did interpret there being two. The God of the OT was an evil deity, while the NT was good. They felt the material word, including our bodies, were created by the bad God. Thus, all of it was tainted with sin. The good God created everything spiritual. Its a very interesting interpretation - sadly, much of it was lost thanks to the Church's crusade.

I can see why the Church would think squashing the Cathars was a good idea, honestly.

And I don't blame them. Cathar theology would have undermined the lynchpin of the church that it was supposed to be the continuation of the Jewish covenant. Would the church have admitted that there were two deities, one evil and the other good, it'd be an affront to their claims of continuity.

The Cathars were pretty small. They were outspoken against the Church, but pretty peaceful. Their size made the crusade against them especially easy.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I can see why the Church would think squashing the Cathars was a good idea, honestly.

And I don't blame them. Cathar theology would have undermined the lynchpin of the church that it was supposed to be the continuation of the Jewish covenant. Would the church have admitted that there were two deities, one evil and the other good, it'd be an affront to their claims of continuity.

The Cathars were pretty small. They were outspoken against the Church, but pretty peaceful. Their size made the crusade against them especially easy.

Which, you know, it's particularly easy to say "oh the Carthans were pretty small", so were Christians at one point in time.

So, I would say there was a reason to crush them. Sure, we can say it was wrong, but there was definitely a reason to crush the Cathar heresy.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

I can see why the Church would think squashing the Cathars was a good idea, honestly.

And I don't blame them. Cathar theology would have undermined the lynchpin of the church that it was supposed to be the continuation of the Jewish covenant. Would the church have admitted that there were two deities, one evil and the other good, it'd be an affront to their claims of continuity and thus their followers would have thought they either were liars, or that Jews had the truth, which would undermine Jesus' words and actions in life.

I can see why the Islamic State would think massacring the Christians is a good idea, honestly.

And I don't blame them. Christian theology undermines the lynchpin of the Caliphate that they are the successors of the Prophet of Allah. Were the Caliph to admit that Jesus is the son of God, and Mohammad was not the seal of the Prophets, it'd be an affront to his claims of successorship to the Ummah and thus his followers would think either he is a liar or the Christians have the truth, which would undermine Mohammad's words and actions in life.

Oh, wait, that's right, committing genocide against people who have different religious beliefs than you is typically considered to be evil by the vast majority of people. If Catholics had genocide committed against them, you would obviously object.

[Lady Scylla]

The Cathars were pretty small. They were outspoken against the Church, but pretty peaceful. Their size made the crusade against them especially easy.

Which, you know, it's particularly easy to say "oh the Carthans were pretty small", so were Christians at one point in time.

So, I would say there was a reason to crush them. Sure, we can say it was wrong, but there was definitely a reason to crush the Cathar heresy.

True, though not for me to say if there was a reason or not. Not like it'd help them now.