Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Auristania]

Imagine my disappointment when I come back from my lenten hiatus to find yall arguing about whether the bible condemns homosexuality again.

It's the preferred topic of new people that enter the thread. I suppose we could stop answering to that particular question. It gets tiresome to constantly say, no Christianity has not changes its position that it has had for 2,000 years.

Some Prod denominations allow gay marriage;
Most Orthodox denominations continue to be anti-gay;
Some Prod denominations are super dooper anti-gay;
Christianity has indeed changed.

[Salus Maior]

It's the preferred topic of new people that enter the thread. I suppose we could stop answering to that particular question. It gets tiresome to constantly say, no Christianity has not changes its position that it has had for 2,000 years.

Some Prod denominations allow gay marriage;
Most Orthodox denominations continue to be anti-gay;
Some Prod denominations are super dooper anti-gay;
Christianity has indeed changed.

The difference is that holding that homosexuality as a sin has been the case in Christianity since the beginning. Whereas some denominations are only okay-ing it now because it's politically convenient.

Which makes them little different from, say, the Arians back when the Roman Emperors tried to enforce that on Christianity. They're in the wrong, and in the end they're not going to last as a real form of Christianity.

[Jamzmania]

It's the preferred topic of new people that enter the thread. I suppose we could stop answering to that particular question. It gets tiresome to constantly say, no Christianity has not changes its position that it has had for 2,000 years.

Some Prod denominations allow gay marriage;
Most Orthodox denominations continue to be anti-gay;
Some Prod denominations are super dooper anti-gay;
Christianity has indeed changed.

A few fringe groups allow gay marriage while the rest remain the same and now the whole religion has suddenly changed?

[Distruzio]

It's the preferred topic of new people that enter the thread. I suppose we could stop answering to that particular question. It gets tiresome to constantly say, no Christianity has not changes its position that it has had for 2,000 years.

Some Prod denominations allow gay marriage;
Most Orthodox denominations continue to be anti-gay;
Some Prod denominations are super dooper anti-gay;
Christianity has indeed changed.

.... slight correction. The Orthodox position is quite a bit more nuanced.

It isn't that we're anti-gay. We're anti-"my sexual proclivities define my personhood". We're not anti-homosexual marriage. We're anti-"change the Church position on marriage right now, never mind that she is more than 2000 years old and takes a reeeeeaaaaaaallllllly long time to consider particular issues".

In other words, there are homosexual Orthodox. It's allowed. You're just not allowed to walk into Church one day and start talking about how much you enjoy schtucking your neighbor of the same sex.

For greater elaboration, please consider this post.

[ThePeacekeepers]

Christ says "the Creator made them male and female," and "for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

Why does Christ say this? Why Does Jesus cite these particular verses of the Hebrew scripture, in this exact way?

Because of the question he is asked:

They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

The QUESTION involves a man and his wife, and that's why the answer does. too.

...but it shows that Holy Matrimony is strictly heterosexual.

It does no such thing.

In fact, scripturally, gay marriage is the logical scriptural answer to homosexual sin. "It is better to marry than to burn."

Yes it is better for a man and a woman to marry than to burn, but the Lord's opinion of homosexuality has always been clear. It has been worthy of death.
You can read in Leviticus, which is the old law, where the Lord commands those who commit homosexual acts to be put to death.
Then in romans it says that those who leave the natural use of either man or woman for those of the same sex are worthy of death. It also says that those who support such things as these, and the other's that are listed, are worthy of death.
Then in Corinthians it says that we are not to be effeminate and says that if you are you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Homosexuality is a sin, and if you are guilty of one sin under the law you are guilt of the whole law.

So you can see clearly using scripture, that under both the old law and the new law homosexuality is a sin and that those who take part in it and those who support it are worthy of death.

I hope this has helped you to see the truth and the light of the Lord God Yahweh and his son Yahshua the Christ.

Leviticus is clear in its meaning.
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It speaks on adultery here.
Leviticus 20:10-11
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
You will want to read Leviticus chapter 20 again to get a more complete picture but specifically 20:9-21
He says to keep his commandments here 20:7-8, 22-24 in that chapter.

Romans is clear also

Romans 1:24-32
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It clearly states that ALL of these things are worthy of death, and that those who accept these things and think them good are also worthy of death.
Here again the same.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Corinthians talks on fornication specifically in that chapter here.
1 Corinthians 6:15-20

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

All sins are equal in the sight of the Lord God Yahweh, then homosexuality (along with every other sin) is a sin worthy of death and damnation under the Law.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:9-13
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Christ is risen Hallelujah!
He is risen indeed Hallelujah!

Not yet.... but soon.

Holy Crap. welcome back!

[Constantinopolis]

One more hymn, for today (it's still Holy Saturday over here). This is probably my favourite Christian hymn of all - or at least second to the Paschal Canon.

The Canon of Holy Saturday

I know I've shared it several times before, but it's worth sharing again and again. Especially today, on the actual day when it is sung.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Why does Christ say this? Why Does Jesus cite these particular verses of the Hebrew scripture, in this exact way?

Because of the question he is asked:

They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

The QUESTION involves a man and his wife, and that's why the answer does. too.



It does no such thing.

In fact, scripturally, gay marriage is the logical scriptural answer to homosexual sin. "It is better to marry than to burn."

Yes it is better for a man and a woman to marry than to burn, but the Lord's opinion of homosexuality has always been clear. It has been worthy of death.
You can read in Leviticus, which is the old law, where the Lord commands those who commit homosexual acts to be put to death.
Then in romans it says that those who leave the natural use of either man or woman for those of the same sex are worthy of death. It also says that those who support such things as these, and the other's that are listed, are worthy of death.
Then in Corinthians it says that we are not to be effeminate and says that if you are you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Homosexuality is a sin, and if you are guilty of one sin under the law you are guilt of the whole law.

So you can see clearly using scripture, that under both the old law and the new law homosexuality is a sin and that those who take part in it and those who support it are worthy of death.

I hope this has helped you to see the truth and the light of the Lord God Yahweh and his son Yahshua the Christ.

Leviticus is clear in its meaning.
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It speaks on adultery here.
Leviticus 20:10-11
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
You will want to read Leviticus chapter 20 again to get a more complete picture but specifically 20:9-21
He says to keep his commandments here 20:7-8, 22-24 in that chapter.

Romans is clear also

Romans 1:24-32
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It clearly states that ALL of these things are worthy of death, and that those who accept these things and think them good are also worthy of death.
Here again the same.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Corinthians talks on fornication specifically in that chapter here.
1 Corinthians 6:15-20

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

All sins are equal in the sight of the Lord God Yahweh, then homosexuality (along with every other sin) is a sin worthy of death and damnation under the Law.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:9-13
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The whole "natural" thing in Romans would suggest that God hasn't looked at his creation very closely.

[Distruzio]

Not yet.... but soon.

Holy Crap. welcome back!

Thank you!

[Diopolis]

Some Prod denominations allow gay marriage;
Most Orthodox denominations continue to be anti-gay;
Some Prod denominations are super dooper anti-gay;
Christianity has indeed changed.

.... slight correction. The Orthodox position is quite a bit more nuanced.

It isn't that we're anti-gay. We're anti-"my sexual proclivities define my personhood". We're not anti-homosexual marriage. We're anti-"change the Church position on marriage right now, never mind that she is more than 2000 years old and takes a reeeeeaaaaaaallllllly long time to consider particular issues".

In other words, there are homosexual Orthodox. It's allowed. You're just not allowed to walk into Church one day and start talking about how much you enjoy schtucking your neighbor of the same sex.

For greater elaboration, please consider Ithis post.

Getting gay married is and remains a sin, whether inside of the church or out.

[Diopolis]

Why does Christ say this? Why Does Jesus cite these particular verses of the Hebrew scripture, in this exact way?

Because of the question he is asked:

They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

The QUESTION involves a man and his wife, and that's why the answer does. too.



It does no such thing.

In fact, scripturally, gay marriage is the logical scriptural answer to homosexual sin. "It is better to marry than to burn."

Yes it is better for a man and a woman to marry than to burn, but the Lord's opinion of homosexuality has always been clear. It has been worthy of death.
You can read in Leviticus, which is the old law, where the Lord commands those who commit homosexual acts to be put to death.
Then in romans it says that those who leave the natural use of either man or woman for those of the same sex are worthy of death. It also says that those who support such things as these, and the other's that are listed, are worthy of death.
Then in Corinthians it says that we are not to be effeminate and says that if you are you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Let's bear in mind that effeminacy in the scriptures(and Christian theology in general) refers to a certain moral softness, not to gender inappropriate behavior generally. Those would fall under the vice of indecorousness.
More specifically, effeminacy is generally taken to refer to a man who is unwilling to suffer, poorly self-disciplined, and possessed of unmoderated moral weaknesses(aka, moral weaknesses you are doing nothing about). In other words, you can't go to heaven unless you actually put effort into overcoming your vices, including at cost to yourself.

[United Muscovite Nations]

.... slight correction. The Orthodox position is quite a bit more nuanced.

It isn't that we're anti-gay. We're anti-"my sexual proclivities define my personhood". We're not anti-homosexual marriage. We're anti-"change the Church position on marriage right now, never mind that she is more than 2000 years old and takes a reeeeeaaaaaaallllllly long time to consider particular issues".

In other words, there are homosexual Orthodox. It's allowed. You're just not allowed to walk into Church one day and start talking about how much you enjoy schtucking your neighbor of the same sex.

For greater elaboration, please consider Ithis post.

Getting gay married is and remains a sin, whether inside of the church or out.

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

[Diopolis]

Getting gay married is and remains a sin, whether inside of the church or out.

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Believers shouldn't either.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Believers shouldn't either.

I agree, but that is a lot more difficult to enforce.

[Grave_n_idle]

Getting gay married is and remains a sin, whether inside of the church or out.

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

Churches aren't arms of the state, so I don't know why they would care.

[Diopolis]

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

Whatever happened to the whole thing about how no one was forcing you to participate in gay marriage ceremonies or infringing on religious liberty because churches would be unaffected?
Other than activists not meaning it to begin with, of course.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Agreed. Priests who officiate false unions should be defrocked. The Orthodox Church has already made its position that clergy may not attend gay weddings.

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

I think we should.

Unlike a business, who works for the public to provide private goods and services, sometimes essential goods and services, and unlike the government, who provides public goods and services, the church doesn't fulfill neither role, so I don't see why marriages should be disallowed if you can still marry in a court.

[New Visayan Islands]

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

Churches aren't arms of the state, so I don't know why they would care.

Certain countries, mostly of the Second World, that require Church subservience to the State send their regards.

Also, Christus resurrexit sicut dixit, Alleluia, Alleluia.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Churches aren't arms of the state, so I don't know why they would care.

Certain countries, mostly of the Second World, that require Church subservience to the State send their regards.

Also, Christus resurrexit sicut dixit, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Christos Voskrese!

Sadly, I can't make it to Paschal services. It's too late, and I am worried that I will fall asleep at the wheel.

[Pasong Tirad]

Certain countries, mostly of the Second World, that require Church subservience to the State send their regards.

Also, Christus resurrexit sicut dixit, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Christos Voskrese!

Sadly, I can't make it to Paschal services. It's too late, and I am worried that I will fall asleep at the wheel.

Nabuhay si Kristo! Totoo, nabuhay nga siya!

I won't be able to attend mass today, either. Sucks to work on Sundays.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Christos anesti! Alleluia, alleluia!

Keeping the faith while being constantly under persecution for 1400 years takes guts. I would like to attend a Coptic Catholic liturgy at least once before I die.

There are Coptic churches in the U.S.

Coptic congregations aren't terribly common here though, and those in communion with Rome are even less so. The nearest one is in Brooklyn - seven hours away from me.

[The Alma Mater]

Which raises an interesting point. Should we still allow churches to conduct marriages, when they aren't interested in following the law?

Whatever happened to the whole thing about how no one was forcing you to participate in gay marriage ceremonies or infringing on religious liberty because churches would be unaffected?
Other than activists not meaning it to begin with, of course.

Where is the infringement ? The church is still free to unite people in holy matrimony as they see fit - excluding gays, muslims, people with defects in their sight or whatever their holy book demands of them.
The question is merely if they should be allowed to give out legal marriage licences if they are unwilling to give them out to all who are legally entitled to them. Compare it with issuing building permits or drivers licences - if you are unwilling to issue them to black people or Jews, it is a fair question if you should be allowed to give them out at all.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Has anyone else thought about their, erm, final plans?

[New Visayan Islands]

Has anyone else thought about their, erm, final plans?

While decades away (so I pray), I would love to visit Jerusalem before I go. Other than that, I would like to be buried in Bohol, amidst my maternal forebears, with a funeral service akin to that of my late grandfather. Et tu?