Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Venerable Bede]

Agar.

Hagar is a prostitute with whom Abraham had sexual relations to try and have a child. God reassured Abraham that he would have a child with Sarah, but Abraham didn't believe him and had sex with Hagar.
Hagar bore Ishmael, and both were banished.

She wasn't a prostitute, she was his servant, and he had a child by her because Sarah urged it. They were banished because Agar started looking her nose down at Sarah due to her having the child, so Sarah became jealous and asked Abraham to kick her and Ishmael out; God told him to just say okay, even though Abraham felt it was wrong; God then looked out for Agar and Ishmael.

[Gim]

Hagar is a prostitute with whom Abraham had sexual relations to try and have a child. God reassured Abraham that he would have a child with Sarah, but Abraham didn't believe him and had sex with Hagar.
Hagar bore Ishmael, and both were banished.

She wasn't a prostitute, she was his servant, and he had a child by her because Sarah urged it. They were banished because Agar started looking her nose down at Sarah due to her having the child, so Sarah became jealous and asked Abraham to kick her and Ishmael out; God told him to just say okay, even though Abraham felt it was wrong; God then looked out for Agar and Ishmael.

Sarah urged him, but Abraham accepted her suggestion, so they both sinned, causing the mother and the child to be exiled.

[Venerable Bede]

She wasn't a prostitute, she was his servant, and he had a child by her because Sarah urged it. They were banished because Agar started looking her nose down at Sarah due to her having the child, so Sarah became jealous and asked Abraham to kick her and Ishmael out; God told him to just say okay, even though Abraham felt it was wrong; God then looked out for Agar and Ishmael.

Sarah urged him, but Abraham accepted her suggestion, so they both sinned, causing the mother and the child to be exiled.

The mother and child were exiled only to appease Sarah.

[Gim]

Sarah urged him, but Abraham accepted her suggestion, so they both sinned, causing the mother and the child to be exiled.

The mother and child were exiled only to appease Sarah.

Sarah is responsible, but also Abraham. Since the child was born out of sinful act, he was banished. Thus, the child was out of sight of God and established a new pseudo-christian kind of religion.

[Jamzmania]

The mother and child were exiled only to appease Sarah.

Sarah is responsible, but also Abraham. Since the child was born out of sinful act, he was banished. Thus, the child was out of sight of God and established a new pseudo-christian kind of religion.

Ishmael did not start Islam.

[Gim]

Sarah is responsible, but also Abraham. Since the child was born out of sinful act, he was banished. Thus, the child was out of sight of God and established a new pseudo-christian kind of religion.

Ishmael did not start Islam.

Mohammed Ali is a descendant of Ishmael.

[Dylar]

Ishmael did not start Islam.

Mohammed Ali is a descendant of Ishmael.

Muhammad Ali is a professional boxer. You're mistaking him with a man simply named Muhammad.

[Gim]

Mohammed Ali is a descendant of Ishmael.

Muhammad Ali is a professional boxer. You're mistaking him with a man simply named Muhammad.

Yeah. Muhammad.

[United Indochina]

Not to derail the discussion too much, but are there any other Eastern Catholics here?

[Venerable Bede]

The mother and child were exiled only to appease Sarah.

Sarah is responsible, but also Abraham. Since the child was born out of sinful act, he was banished. Thus, the child was out of sight of God and established a new pseudo-christian kind of religion.

God did not establish Islam. Do you really think God would establish a religion that explicitly teaches Christ is not the Son of God, that we are not made in God's image, and that the Crucifixion and Resurrection are lies?

[Ashmoria]

Sarah is responsible, but also Abraham. Since the child was born out of sinful act, he was banished. Thus, the child was out of sight of God and established a new pseudo-christian kind of religion.

God did not establish Islam. Do you really think God would establish a religion that explicitly teaches Christ is not the Son of God, that we are not made in God's image, and that the Crucifixion and Resurrection are lies?

I don't see why not

he never suggested to the jews that he had a son who was on his way to fix their being banned from heaven

[Venerable Bede]

Not to derail the discussion too much, but are there any other Eastern Catholics here?

Are there any post-uniate East Catholic saints with high quality spiritual writings? Who is the Theophan the Recluse of EC's, for instance?

[Venerable Bede]

God did not establish Islam. Do you really think God would establish a religion that explicitly teaches Christ is not the Son of God, that we are not made in God's image, and that the Crucifixion and Resurrection are lies?

I don't see why not

he never suggested to the jews that he had a son who was on his way to fix their being banned from heaven

Mm, yes he did, both in the prophets and in Christ himself. He certainly didn't teach them explicitly that Christ's doctrine is a lie. God doesn't found false religions.

[Ashmoria]

I don't see why not

he never suggested to the jews that he had a son who was on his way to fix their being banned from heaven

Mm, yes he act did, both in the prophets and in Christ himself. He certainly didn't them explicitly that Christ doctrine is a lie. God doesn't found false religions.

my point is, no he didn't, and that leaving shit out is par for the course, it seems for this god.

his lack of informing the jews that he had a son and that they should expect him to show up as a normal man has left millions out of the Christian fold. he was a trinity the whole time and yet let the jews think he was one god in one.

there is no reason why he wouldn't do the same shit to Christians when he decided to bring in mohammed.

[Venerable Bede]

Mm, yes he act did, both in the prophets and in Christ himself. He certainly didn't them explicitly that Christ doctrine is a lie. God doesn't found false religions.

my point is, no he didn't, and that leaving shit out is par for the course, it seems for this god.

his lack of informing the jews that he had a son and that they should expect him to show up as a normal man has left millions out of the Christian fold. he was a trinity the whole time and yet let the jews think he was one god in one.

there is no reason why he wouldn't do the same shit to Christians when he decided to bring in mohammed.

Islam teaches explicitly that the Scriptures are incorrect, whereas Christ appealed to the Scriptures in condemning the Pharisees (the founders of current Judaism).

[Ashmoria]

my point is, no he didn't, and that leaving shit out is par for the course, it seems for this god.

his lack of informing the jews that he had a son and that they should expect him to show up as a normal man has left millions out of the Christian fold. he was a trinity the whole time and yet let the jews think he was one god in one.

there is no reason why he wouldn't do the same shit to Christians when he decided to bring in mohammed.

Islam teaches explicitly that the Scriptures are incorrect, whereas Christ appealed to the Scriptures in condemning the Pharisees (the founders of current Judaism).

that doesn't matter.

the evidence is that god has no trouble lying to his people.

that doesn't mean that islam is correct it just means that you cant call it wrong on the basis of "god wouldn't do that"

hes already done it to the jews.

[Venerable Bede]

Islam teaches explicitly that the Scriptures are incorrect, whereas Christ appealed to the Scriptures in condemning the Pharisees (the founders of current Judaism).

that doesn't matter.

the evidence is that god has no trouble lying to his people.

that doesn't mean that islam is correct it just means that you cant call it wrong on the basis of "god wouldn't do that"

hes already done it to the jews.

God didn't lie to his people, the Pharisees did. God literally came down and called them on it, and used his word to substantiate it, and so they killed him.

[Ashmoria]

that doesn't matter.

the evidence is that god has no trouble lying to his people.

that doesn't mean that islam is correct it just means that you cant call it wrong on the basis of "god wouldn't do that"

hes already done it to the jews.

God didn't lie to his people, the Pharisees did. God literally came down and called them on it, and used his word to substantiate it, and so they killed him.

no

that was thousands of years later.

he never ever told the jews --and they had plenty of prophets--that he was a trinity and had a son.

[Venerable Bede]

that doesn't matter.

the evidence is that god has no trouble lying to his people.

that doesn't mean that islam is correct it just means that you cant call it wrong on the basis of "god wouldn't do that"

hes already done it to the jews.

God didn't lie to his people, the Pharisees did. God literally came down and called them on it, and used his word to substantiate it, and so they killed him.

"Son of God" and "mighty God, the Prince of peace, " as terms for the Messiah are both in OT, and Genesis 18 overtly depicts God as Triune. Proverbs 8 and 9 clearly illustrate God's Wisdom (identified as Christ in the NT) as distinct from the Father, yet still divine, and in Isaiah God talks about sending his Word into the world almost as a person to accomplish his will, and God's Spirit is regularly spoken of in a distinct way.

[Ashmoria]

God didn't lie to his people, the Pharisees did. God literally came down and called them on it, and used his word to substantiate it, and so they killed him.

"Son of God" and "mighty God, the Prince of peace, " as terms for the Messiah are both in OT, and Genesis 18 overtly depicts God as Triune. Proverbs 8 and 9 clearly illustrate God's Wisdom (identified as Christ in the NT) as distinct from the Father, yet still divine, and in Isaiah God talks about sending his Word into the world almost as a person to accomplish his will, and God's Spirit is regularly spoken of in a distinct way.

if youre a Christian

if you are a jew it means none of that.

its all later Christian interpretation guided by believe in jesus.

[Jamzmania]

"Son of God" and "mighty God, the Prince of peace, " as terms for the Messiah are both in OT, and Genesis 18 overtly depicts God as Triune. Proverbs 8 and 9 clearly illustrate God's Wisdom (identified as Christ in the NT) as distinct from the Father, yet still divine, and in Isaiah God talks about sending his Word into the world almost as a person to accomplish his will, and God's Spirit is regularly spoken of in a distinct way.

if youre a Christian

if you are a jew it means none of that.

its all later Christian interpretation guided by believe in jesus.

If you're a modern Jew at least. Let's not forget that many, many Jews became Christians.

[Ashmoria]

if youre a Christian

if you are a jew it means none of that.

its all later Christian interpretation guided by believe in jesus.

If you're a modern Jew at least. Let's not forget that many, many Jews became Christians.

some did.

its probably hard to tell now since there was all that massacring by the romans then the diaspora

[Venerable Bede]

"Son of God" and "mighty God, the Prince of peace, " as terms for the Messiah are both in OT, and Genesis 18 overtly depicts God as Triune. Proverbs 8 and 9 clearly illustrate God's Wisdom (identified as Christ in the NT) as distinct from the Father, yet still divine, and in Isaiah God talks about sending his Word into the world almost as a person to accomplish his will, and God's Spirit is regularly spoken of in a distinct way.

if youre a Christian

if you are a jew it means none of that.

its all later Christian interpretation guided by believe in jesus.

All later Jewish interpretations are also guided by denial of him. For instance, Jews started teaching that God's use of plural pronouns in referring to himself (let us make man in our image) is him talking to his angels; this reading was developed simply to counter Trinitarin readings, but that would mean the angels were co-creators with YHWH, which is not proper.

[Ashmoria]

if youre a Christian

if you are a jew it means none of that.

its all later Christian interpretation guided by believe in jesus.

All later Jewish interpretations are also guided by denial of him. For instance, Jews started teaching that God's use of plural pronouns in referring to himself (let us make man in our image) is him talking to his angels; this reading was developed simply to counter Trinitarin readings, but that would mean the angels were co-creators with YHWH, which is not proper.

they didn't need to explain it before then, did they? they all knew they worshipped one god in one.

[Venerable Bede]

All later Jewish interpretations are also guided by denial of him. For instance, Jews started teaching that God's use of plural pronouns in referring to himself (let us make man in our image) is him talking to his angels; this reading was developed simply to counter Trinitarin readings, but that would mean the angels were co-creators with YHWH, which is not proper.

they didn't need to explain it before then, did they? they all knew they worshipped one god in one.

They didn't explain a whole ton of things, but Christianity did, and so counter explanations were developed by the Pharisees .