Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Luminesa]

And there in lies the problem. Like a dinner plate that's broken into pieces, you hold on to the coaster sized disc that remains and pretend there is no breaks.

Specifically because the Church is fractured. We have many (broken) parts, but we are all one Body, and we can come together first by seeking common ground.

The dinner plate metaphor doesn't make sense. Neither does the idea that the Church is one Body and yet also broken into pieces. Think of what you are saying. The Church is one Body. Yes. A living Body. So, for example, if you cut away someone's right arm, is that man "divided" now? Does he need to be "put back together" in order to be a full person again? No. The man without his right arm is still a full person. He is the same person he used to be. The person was not "divided", it was not separated in two pieces, we don't have two persons now instead of one. We still have one person, the same one as before, although injured. And next to him we have a cut-off arm, which is not a person, and cannot possibly be called a continuation of the full person from before the cut.

That is how the Orthodox Church views schism. There is one true Church. There can only be one true Church. When division occurs, that means a piece of the true Church was cut away. But we don't get two true Churches instead of one. We still have one true Church, although injured. The piece that was cut away is not a true Church, in the same way that an arm is not a person.

It is possible to perform surgery and re-attach the arm that was cut off. Various schismatic groups have returned to the Church many times before. At one point, the Patriarchate of Bulgaria was in schism for 60 years, before re-uniting with the Orthodox Church. But this can only work if the arm is treated as an arm, one that needs to be re-attached to the body. It's not going to work if you say that the arm and the rest of the body need to "resolve their differences" and that the resulting "united person" should look part-human and part-giant-arm (you know, as a compromise).

I've never thought of it like this, to be honest. Huh.

[Constantinopolis]

We pray directly to God (though I imagine Catholics do that sometimes as well?).

Oh, of course. Orthodox Christians do that most of the time. I'm sure that Catholics do as well. Praying to the saints is in addition to this.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I didn't mean to make you stop arguing. Or to break your heart. I am sorry for making you think that.

But honestly, you need to stop relying on definition without analysis. I honestly want you to make an effort at explaining things beyond the definitional meaning of it. Because I know you're smarter than that. Me, Tarsonis, Luminesa, and Constantinopolis converse and exchange blows, but our blows are nuanced and I particularly don't feel bad when we four spar together.

With you on the other hand, I have to, because I want you to be more nuanced than you have been showing. So please, do make an effort at explaining, I would appreciate it. I know I am brash at conveying my point (even what I wrote to Tarsonis this morning I worry it wasn't all that tactful, or nice) but I don't mean to shut you up.

No, I'm not nuanced, and certainly not intelligent in any sense. I'm ignorant and I only can dream of having perfect obedience.

My heart is broken because of your doctrine, not how you talk to me.

I told people in some pages back, I am willing to admit I am wrong in my doctrine and Christian knowledge. Heck, this thread alone has made me grow as a Christian and have corrected me when I am wrong and I take their words to heart and analyze them. That's why I ask for nuance. If you think I am wrong, make an effort to teach me why, don't just tell me I am wrong and imply that my thoughts are fanciful bullshit without further ado because you will get a brash response from me, and when I raise a point you point to me to a definition that you won't explain as if to say "go and read". I can google a definition, and I have done so in the past. So I can google bible verses and can recall from memory the passage you mean (my grandma and great-grandma made me read the Bible multiple times), I don't need people to regurgitate them for me like Protestants do.

You're a smart kid. Don't beat yourself like that either. When I say you're smarter than your responses to people are at times, I honestly mean that.

[Salus Maior]

Methodism came from Anglicanism, so why would legitimate succession stop?

Most Christians are vastly similar in theology, which is why I tend to see the entire Christian body as having the same chance at salvation. There is no Church with "better odds" for salvation, for we all must do our best to follow Christ's teachings.

The major breaks from Catholicism that Methodism takes is not praying to Saints. We pray directly to God (though I imagine Catholics do that sometimes as well?). Communion is open to all that accept Christ as their savior, instead of just Church members, and it is given monthly. This probably a few others, but I don't know enough about Catholicism to identify them, which is why I love this thread that gives a lot of Catholic views.

Us Christians can quite easily get along.

Good night!

I imagine because Methodists didn't maintain Apostolic Succession as the Apostolic Churches believe in it.

You mentioned you had pastors, are they ordained by Bishops? If not, then they're not maintaining Apostolic Succession in the traditional sense. But then again if they don't, they just don't believe in Apostolic Succession as it is traditionally believed. Which a great deal of Protestants don't. Maybe you should ask your Pastor about it?

Well, the thing is, even what could be seen as a minor difference in theology can have major repercussions when you really think about it. Particularly between Protestants and Traditionals. There's a lot of nuances, and simple changes to theology can make for some major rifts and losses in understanding.

For instance, a Calvinist Church may preach similar morality to Catholics, but because of their emphasis on predestination as opposed to the traditional free-will position makes it so that their understanding of God Himself is almost completely alien to the traditional position. At that point one can't really say these two Churches are basically the same, and one has to be in the wrong.

Another similarly important issue is the Eucharist. On one end, it is seen as a rite that's essential for salvation and one's Christian walk, on the other end it's seen as nothing more than a symbolic remembrance. These two positions can't be reconciled, and again one has to be wrong...But this time one's salvation hangs in the balance.

Well, it's an easy mistake but Catholics (and most other traditions) don't pray to the Saints. It's called Intersession of the Saints, and one prays for the Saint;s intersession. The simplest way to put it is that Intersession of the Saints is asking that Saint to pray for you in Heaven, like you would ask a living friend or family member to pray for you. You don't pray to them instead of God, it's in addition.

[Constantinopolis]

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!

Ha, ha... *laughs nervously*

You say that as a joke, but we used to have a very active poster in this thread who seriously made that exact argument. Over and over and over again.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!

Ha, ha... *laughs nervously*

You say that as a joke, but we used to have a very active poster in this thread who seriously made that exact argument. Over and over and over again.

Oh... You mean Efraim-Judah?

I remember him. I wonder what happened to him.

[Venerable Bede]

No, I'm not nuanced, and certainly not intelligent in any sense. I'm ignorant and I only can dream of having perfect obedience.

My heart is broken because of your doctrine, not how you talk to me.

What!? You, unintelligent Bede?

You're literally one of the most well-learned and witty people I've seen on this site. If maybe on the blunt side.

Don't say things like that about yourself, it's not true.

"People of high spirit bear offence nobly and gladly, but only holy people and saints can pass through praise without harm." Since I am not holy neither a saint, please do not praise me. I am absolutely not learned by even worldly standards, let alone a theologian. So do not praise me. If I am witty, it is because I am not contrite.

[Salus Maior]

Methodism came from Anglicanism, so why would legitimate succession stop?

Most Christians are vastly similar in theology, which is why I tend to see the entire Christian body as having the same chance at salvation. There is no Church with "better odds" for salvation, for we all must do our best to follow Christ's teachings.

The major breaks from Catholicism that Methodism takes is not praying to Saints. We pray directly to God (though I imagine Catholics do that sometimes as well?). Communion is open to all that accept Christ as their savior, instead of just Church members, and it is given monthly. This probably a few others, but I don't know enough about Catholicism to identify them, which is why I love this thread that gives a lot of Catholic views.

Us Christians can quite easily get along.

Good night!

I imagine because Methodists didn't maintain Apostolic Succession as the Apostolic Churches believe in it.

You mentioned you had pastors, are they ordained by Bishops? If not, then they're not maintaining Apostolic Succession in the traditional sense. But then again if they don't, they just don't believe in Apostolic Succession as it is traditionally believed. Which a great deal of Protestants don't. Maybe you should ask your Pastor about it?

Well, the thing is, even what could be seen as a minor difference in theology can have major repercussions when you really think about it. Particularly between Protestants and Traditionals. There's a lot of nuances, and simple changes to theology can make for some major rifts and losses in understanding.

For instance, a Calvinist Church may preach similar morality to Catholics, but because of their emphasis on predestination as opposed to the traditional free-will position makes it so that their understanding of God Himself is almost completely alien to the traditional position. At that point one can't really say these two Churches are basically the same, and one has to be in the wrong.

Another similarly important issue is the Eucharist. On one end, it is seen as a rite that's essential for salvation and one's Christian walk, on the other end it's seen as nothing more than a symbolic remembrance. These two positions can't be reconciled, and again one has to be wrong...But this time one's salvation hangs in the balance.

Well, it's an easy mistake but Catholics (and most other traditions) don't pray to the Saints. It's called Intersession of the Saints, and one prays for the Saint;s intersession. The simplest way to put it is that Intersession of the Saints is asking that Saint to pray for you in Heaven, like you would ask a living friend or family member to pray for you. You don't pray to them instead of God, it's in addition.

[Venerable Bede]

No, I'm not nuanced, and certainly not intelligent in any sense. I'm ignorant and I only can dream of having perfect obedience.

My heart is broken because of your doctrine, not how you talk to me.

I told people in some pages back, I am willing to admit I am wrong in my doctrine and Christian knowledge. Heck, this thread alone has made me grow as a Christian and have corrected me when I am wrong and I take their words to heart and analyze them. That's why I ask for nuance. If you think I am wrong, make an effort to teach me why, don't just tell me I am wrong and imply that my thoughts are fanciful bullshit without further ado because you will get a brash response from me, and when I raise a point you point to me to a definition that you won't explain as if to say "go and read". I can google a definition, and I have done so in the past. So I can google bible verses and can recall from memory the passage you mean (my grandma and great-grandma made me read the Bible multiple times), I don't need people to regurgitate them for me like Protestants do.

You're a smart kid. Don't beat yourself like that either. When I say you're smarter than your responses to people are at times, I honestly mean that.

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I told people in some pages back, I am willing to admit I am wrong in my doctrine and Christian knowledge. Heck, this thread alone has made me grow as a Christian and have corrected me when I am wrong and I take their words to heart and analyze them. That's why I ask for nuance. If you think I am wrong, make an effort to teach me why, don't just tell me I am wrong and imply that my thoughts are fanciful bullshit without further ado because you will get a brash response from me, and when I raise a point you point to me to a definition that you won't explain as if to say "go and read". I can google a definition, and I have done so in the past. So I can google bible verses and can recall from memory the passage you mean (my grandma and great-grandma made me read the Bible multiple times), I don't need people to regurgitate them for me like Protestants do.

You're a smart kid. Don't beat yourself like that either. When I say you're smarter than your responses to people are at times, I honestly mean that.

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Well, for starters I am not talking to "the fathers". I am talking to you. If I was able to talk to the fathers and be taught doctrine by them, you and I wouldn't even need to have a discussion.

[Luminesa]

I told people in some pages back, I am willing to admit I am wrong in my doctrine and Christian knowledge. Heck, this thread alone has made me grow as a Christian and have corrected me when I am wrong and I take their words to heart and analyze them. That's why I ask for nuance. If you think I am wrong, make an effort to teach me why, don't just tell me I am wrong and imply that my thoughts are fanciful bullshit without further ado because you will get a brash response from me, and when I raise a point you point to me to a definition that you won't explain as if to say "go and read". I can google a definition, and I have done so in the past. So I can google bible verses and can recall from memory the passage you mean (my grandma and great-grandma made me read the Bible multiple times), I don't need people to regurgitate them for me like Protestants do.

You're a smart kid. Don't beat yourself like that either. When I say you're smarter than your responses to people are at times, I honestly mean that.

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Dude, quit this. Stop it right now. Right here. Before you make another post. And listen.

I used to be a very unkind Christian. I would fight with people constantly, I would boast about my knowledge constantly, and I looked at myself as better than other Christians, better than other people. Sophomore year of high school, I had a Godsend of a religion teacher who taught me that winning arguments is not what being a Christian is about. He turned my life around (and is actually becoming a priest in May, praise God.) Sure, if you win an argument, congrats. But it's about loving others and seeking the goodness in them, reaching across a gap to show them the love of Christ.

So don't turn down people who want to speak to you in kindness. Don't turn down those who wish for you to listen and to grow. Don't fight the people who want to help you to be the best you. Because when you fight the people who wish to show you genuine love and kindness, you are hurting them and you are hurting yourself. This person just complimented your intelligence and is trying to challenge you to better yourself. Take the time to listen, not to snap at them like an angry dog because they think a little differently from you.

[Venerable Bede]

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Well, for starters I am not talking to "the fathers". I am talking to you. If I was able to talk to the fathers and be taught doctrine by them, you and I wouldn't even need to have a discussion.

They have extensive writings stretching over a thousand years. I can't offer you more than that, I can only confess them.

[Thermodolia]

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Dude, quit this. Stop it right now. Right here. Before you make another post. And listen.

I used to be a very unkind Christian. I would fight with people constantly, I would boast about my knowledge constantly, and I looked at myself as better than other Christians, better than other people. Sophomore year of high school, I had a Godsend of a religion teacher who taught me that winning arguments is not what being a Christian is about. He turned my life around (and is actually becoming a priest in May, praise God.) Sure, if you win an argument, congrats. But it's about loving others and seeking the goodness in them, reaching across a gap to show them the love of Christ.

So don't turn down people who want to speak to you in kindness. Don't turn down those who wish for you to listen and to grow. Don't fight the people who want to help you to be the best you. Because when you fight the people who wish to show you genuine love and kindness, you are hurting them and you are hurting yourself. This person just complimented your intelligence and is trying to challenge you to better yourself. Take the time to listen, not to snap at them like an angry dog because they think a little differently from you.

I knew there was a reason I liked you

[Luminesa]

Dude, quit this. Stop it right now. Right here. Before you make another post. And listen.

I used to be a very unkind Christian. I would fight with people constantly, I would boast about my knowledge constantly, and I looked at myself as better than other Christians, better than other people. Sophomore year of high school, I had a Godsend of a religion teacher who taught me that winning arguments is not what being a Christian is about. He turned my life around (and is actually becoming a priest in May, praise God.) Sure, if you win an argument, congrats. But it's about loving others and seeking the goodness in them, reaching across a gap to show them the love of Christ.

So don't turn down people who want to speak to you in kindness. Don't turn down those who wish for you to listen and to grow. Don't fight the people who want to help you to be the best you. Because when you fight the people who wish to show you genuine love and kindness, you are hurting them and you are hurting yourself. This person just complimented your intelligence and is trying to challenge you to better yourself. Take the time to listen, not to snap at them like an angry dog because they think a little differently from you.

I knew there was a reason I liked you

Yaaaaay!

Soooo...Chinese at your place?

[Luminesa]

My time is now!! Technically all of you Christians are one giant Jewish hersey. Repent and join us for Passover and Chinese on Christmas Eve!!

Ha, ha... *laughs nervously*

You say that as a joke, but we used to have a very active poster in this thread who seriously made that exact argument. Over and over and over again.

CONST HAS THE BATTLE SCARS!!!!

Right underneath the vampire-bite marks on his neck, lol.

[Thermodolia]

I knew there was a reason I liked you

Yaaaaay!

Soooo...Chinese at your place?

Only on Christmas Eve.

In all seriousness I really do need Chinese food

[Venerable Bede]

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Dude, quit this. Stop it right now. Right here. Before you make another post. And listen.

I used to be a very unkind Christian. I would fight with people constantly, I would boast about my knowledge constantly, and I looked at myself as better than other Christians, better than other people. Sophomore year of high school, I had a Godsend of a religion teacher who taught me that winning arguments is not what being a Christian is about. He turned my life around (and is actually becoming a priest in May, praise God.) Sure, if you win an argument, congrats. But it's about loving others and seeking the goodness in them, reaching across a gap to show them the love of Christ.

So don't turn down people who want to speak to you in kindness. Don't turn down those who wish for you to listen and to grow. Don't fight the people who want to help you to be the best you. Because when you fight the people who wish to show you genuine love and kindness, you are hurting them and you are hurting yourself. This person just complimented your intelligence and is trying to challenge you to better yourself. Take the time to listen, not to snap at them like an angry dog because they think a little differently from you.

I am preparing to become a monastic, I do not wish to become better in terms of sophistication . I do not bear anything but love for TS and SSC, but I am not the one to address their needs here, I can only witness the fathers.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

[Constantinopolis]

I don't believe I am qualified to teach you if you thinks the fathers are not.

Dude, quit this. Stop it right now. Right here. Before you make another post. And listen.

I used to be a very unkind Christian. I would fight with people constantly, I would boast about my knowledge constantly, and I looked at myself as better than other Christians, better than other people. Sophomore year of high school, I had a Godsend of a religion teacher who taught me that winning arguments is not what being a Christian is about. He turned my life around (and is actually becoming a priest in May, praise God.) Sure, if you win an argument, congrats. But it's about loving others and seeking the goodness in them, reaching across a gap to show them the love of Christ.

So don't turn down people who want to speak to you in kindness. Don't turn down those who wish for you to listen and to grow. Don't fight the people who want to help you to be the best you. Because when you fight the people who wish to show you genuine love and kindness, you are hurting them and you are hurting yourself. This person just complimented your intelligence and is trying to challenge you to better yourself. Take the time to listen, not to snap at them like an angry dog because they think a little differently from you.

I believe that Bede sounds tired and lacking the energy to continue the discussion, not angry.

Also, he is asking people not to compliment him because he wants to work on humility, and avoid being tempted by pride. I thought that was obvious.

[Thermodolia]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

Sounds like my kind of fun, though I'd rather have a malt whiskey than a beer

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

Sounds like my kind of fun, though I'd rather have a malt whiskey than a beer

First bar I went to was a whiskey bar, I was gonna have a couple dregs of bourbon, but it was crowded. So I went to the old reliable , Craft beer bar.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

Well, at least one of us was having fun.

I might make myself a martini or two now that you mention it. Or drink some wine.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

Well, at least one of us was having fun.

I might make myself a martini or two now that you mention it. Or drink some wine.

I wouldn't be upholding my bartenders oath if I didn't insist you make that martini with Gin

[Thermodolia]

Man , I've gotta work on my timing. I missed pages of dialogue. Though to be fair, I've been sitting at a bar drinking craft beer listening to 80's music, which honestly is almost a religious experience.

Well, at least one of us was having fun.

I might make myself a martini or two now that you mention it. Or drink some wine.

If i didn't have to work in the morning I'd be having a drink

Sounds like my kind of fun, though I'd rather have a malt whiskey than a beer

First bar I went to was a whiskey bar, I was gonna have a couple dregs of bourbon, but it was crowded. So I went to the old reliable , Craft beer bar.

I see. Well at least you had a drink unlike some of us

[Thermodolia]

Well, at least one of us was having fun.

I might make myself a martini or two now that you mention it. Or drink some wine.

I wouldn't be upholding my bartenders oath if I didn't insist you make that martini with Gin

Is there any other way to make a martini?