Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Salus Maior]

I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously that believed demonic possession was real.

Well, you're an atheist....So, not surprising?

[Lady Scylla]

I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously that believed demonic possession was real.

Well, you're an atheist....So, not surprising?

Lemme rephrase that. Id take someone saying there's a God more seriously than that.

[Luminesa]

This is, quite literally, the only thing that you have ever written on this thread with which I agree. Go figure.

Probably because you follow things like situational ethics and so on. I don't, because they're new, they're not ancient theology.

Must you push away every single person who speaks with you? Christ told Peter to put away his sword, perhaps you should follow.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously that believed demonic possession was real.

Thing is, some people do believe that demonic possession is a thing.

I personally am of the thought that the things I have heard and seen are not demonic in nature and probably have a medical explanation, but I won't discard the possibility. I just think that, these days, it is far more reasonable to assume that a person needs medical attention rather than faith healing and an exorcism.

[Lady Scylla]

I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously that believed demonic possession was real.

Thing is, some people do believe that demonic possession is a thing.

I personally am of the thought that the things I have heard and seen are not demonic in nature and probably have a medical explanation, but I won't discard the possibility. I just think that, these days, it is far more reasonable to assume that a person needs medical attention rather than faith healing and an exorcism.

I'd throw people in jail for endangerment and negligence over the latter.

[Nordengrund]

It's not that hard actually. Back in CDT III I was one of the most vocal opponent of Apostolicism. Feel free to look back and take up a few points. There is plenty of room for criticism of apostolicism, especially in post renaissance west.

Well it's not just that, I think - but I'll wait until I hear from a Protestant how they feel about their in/ability to jump into conversations here.

Protestant here. I think this issue is that a lot of Protestants, especially those of an evangelical or low-church persuasion, don't feel welcome here, so it seems pointless to them to present their views when it is just going to be dismissed as heretical, and that doesn't really encourage discussion.

Also, a lot of the conversations here pertain more to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. There's nothing wrong with that really, but the Protestant may feel he has nothing relevant to contribute to those conversations.

[Lady Scylla]

Well it's not just that, I think - but I'll wait until I hear from a Protestant how they feel about their in/ability to jump into conversations here.

Protestant here. I think this issue is that a lot of Protestants, especially those of an evangelical or low-church persuasion, don't feel welcome here, so it seems pointless to them to present their views when it is just going to be dismissed as heretical, and that doesn't really encourage discussion.

Also, a lot of the conversations here pertain more to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. There's nothing wrong with that really, but the Protestant may feel he has nothing relevant to contribute to those conversations.

At this point, I'd say a Protestant thread wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Reverend Norv]

Admittedly, no, but considering how entrenched a lot of people here are in their positions on the matter, I can understand why they might feel a bit ostracized.

"You're a heretic, but that's okay, because you still have a small chance of going to Heaven", or some variation thereof, isn't exactly encouraging discussion.

They're traditionalists, and most learned people in Apostolic traditions are already entrenched in the idea that their Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So, naturally when you have those kinds of people anywhere (that is, people who are devout Apostolics) they're going to say that other churches, particularly Protestants, are incorrect in one way or another.

If the Protestants here are so intimidated and can't give an answer to that, I don't think the problem is with the Apostolics.

Wait, so the problem is with me because there's only so many times in a day that I want to be told that I am probably going to burn in Hell for all eternity? Yeah, I'm definitely an intimidated, thin-skinned snowflake afraid of proper debate.

Here's the point, and I hope that Lumi will excuse me for using her as an example. I know that Lumi believes, no less than any of the other Catholics on this thread, that the RCC is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I know that she believes that my theology, ecclesiology, and whole vision of Christianity are profoundly flawed. I know that we will likely never agree on a whole range of doctrinal and political issues that are deeply important to both of us. And I know these things because Lumi has expressed her disagreement with me directly, cogently, and repeatedly here on this thread.

But Lumi has never, ever told me that I'm probably going to Hell. She's never called me a heretic, or my church heretical. That's not necessarily because she doesn't believe those things; I have no way of knowing whether she thinks that or not. But I know that Lumi never speaks that way to anyone - because she is a kind person, and she exercises self-control, and she seeks common ground, and she prioritizes Christian love over scoring debate points. This is also why I have never, ever, suggested that the Catholic or Orthodox churches - or certain Evangelical Protestant churches, with which I have equally deep disagreements - are illegitimate. It's why I never use the words "blasphemy" or "heresy" to describe the views of anyone on this thread, no matter my private views on the matter. Because I believe that to say any of those things - whether or not they are true - would be contrary to my moral responsibilities as a Christian and to the status of this thread as a shared space for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

That's why I, and so many other Protestants, feel unwelcome here. As a matter of Christian principle, I feel required to censor myself in a way that many here clearly do not. That impulse to self-censorship is a product of the way that most of us in mainline Protestant churches were raised: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Now, I realize that those are our norms, and I'm not necessarily asking you folks to abide by them: different traditions have different forms of etiquette, and that's okay. I'm just letting y'all know that this phenomenon is why it's so hard for many Protestants to participate comfortably on this thread, and it's why this discussion feels so hostile to us. What you do with that information is up to you.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Thing is, some people do believe that demonic possession is a thing.

I personally am of the thought that the things I have heard and seen are not demonic in nature and probably have a medical explanation, but I won't discard the possibility. I just think that, these days, it is far more reasonable to assume that a person needs medical attention rather than faith healing and an exorcism.

I'd throw people in jail for endangerment and negligence over the latter.

Quite. I mean, if you feel sick, of anything, that's why medicine does exist, so you can be treated. If you feel troubled, psychiatry and psychology.

I don't think there's any reason why sending someone to a doctor or a psychologist/psychiatrist shouldn't be the first resort rather than faith healing at this point in time. Maybe that was a necessity 1500 years ago, but not anymore.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Protestant here. I think this issue is that a lot of Protestants, especially those of an evangelical or low-church persuasion, don't feel welcome here, so it seems pointless to them to present their views when it is just going to be dismissed as heretical, and that doesn't really encourage discussion.

Also, a lot of the conversations here pertain more to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. There's nothing wrong with that really, but the Protestant may feel he has nothing relevant to contribute to those conversations.

At this point, I'd say a Protestant thread wouldn't be a bad idea.

Given the Mods closed down a "Catholic Thread" they'd never allow. There's no safe spaces on the NS Forums, if the Protestants Want to be part of this thread they need to carve out their space

[Pasong Tirad]

They're traditionalists, and most learned people in Apostolic traditions are already entrenched in the idea that their Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So, naturally when you have those kinds of people anywhere (that is, people who are devout Apostolics) they're going to say that other churches, particularly Protestants, are incorrect in one way or another.

If the Protestants here are so intimidated and can't give an answer to that, I don't think the problem is with the Apostolics.

Wait, so the problem is with me because there's only so many times in a day that I want to be told that I am probably going to burn in Hell for all eternity? Yeah, I'm definitely an intimidated, thin-skinned snowflake afraid of proper debate.

Here's the point, and I hope that Lumi will excuse me for using her as an example. I know that Lumi believes, no less than any of the other Catholics on this thread, that the RCC is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I know that she believes that my theology, ecclesiology, and whole vision of Christianity are profoundly flawed. I know that we will likely never agree on a whole range of doctrinal and political issues that are deeply important to both of us. And I know these things because Lumi has expressed her disagreement with me directly, cogently, and repeatedly here on this thread.

But Lumi has never, ever told me that I'm probably going to Hell. She's never called me a heretic, or my church heretical. That's not necessarily because she doesn't believe those things; I have no way of knowing whether she thinks that or not. But I know that Lumi never speaks that way to anyone - because she is a kind person, and she exercises self-control, and she seeks common ground, and she prioritizes Christian love over scoring debate points. This is also why I have never, ever, suggested that the Catholic or Orthodox churches - or certain Evangelical Protestant churches, with which I have equally deep disagreements - are illegitimate. It's why I never use the words "blasphemy" or "heresy" to describe the views of anyone on this thread, no matter my private views on the matter. Because I believe that to say any of those things - whether or not they are true - would be contrary to my moral responsibilities as a Christian and to the status of this thread as a shared space for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

That's why I, and so many other Protestants, feel unwelcome here. As a matter of Christian principle, I feel required to censor myself in a way that many here clearly do not. That impulse to self-censorship is a product of the way that most of us in mainline Protestant churches were raised: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Now, I realize that those are our norms, and I'm not necessarily asking you folks to abide by them: different traditions have different forms of etiquette, and that's okay. I'm just letting y'all know that this phenomenon is why it's so hard for many Protestants to participate comfortably on this thread, and it's why this discussion feels so hostile to us. What you do with that information is up to you.

And this is basically the problem with a lot of people here. It's also why I feel rather out of place in this thread a lot of the time as a liberal Catholic - I digress, this isn't about me, it's about our protestant brothers and sisters.

[Lady Scylla]

At this point, I'd say a Protestant thread wouldn't be a bad idea.

Given the Mods closed down a "Catholic Thread" they'd never allow. There's no safe spaces on the NS Forums, if the Protestants Want to be part of this thread they need to carve out their space

I doubt that's going to happen without bloodshed. This might as well be the Catholic/Orthodox thread. Provided they make a valid case for it, they can probably get a Protestant thread.

[Luminesa]

They're traditionalists, and most learned people in Apostolic traditions are already entrenched in the idea that their Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So, naturally when you have those kinds of people anywhere (that is, people who are devout Apostolics) they're going to say that other churches, particularly Protestants, are incorrect in one way or another.

If the Protestants here are so intimidated and can't give an answer to that, I don't think the problem is with the Apostolics.

Wait, so the problem is with me because there's only so many times in a day that I want to be told that I am probably going to burn in Hell for all eternity? Yeah, I'm definitely an intimidated, thin-skinned snowflake afraid of proper debate.

Here's the point, and I hope that Lumi will excuse me for using her as an example. I know that Lumi believes, no less than any of the other Catholics on this thread, that the RCC is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I know that she believes that my theology, ecclesiology, and whole vision of Christianity are profoundly flawed. I know that we will likely never agree on a whole range of doctrinal and political issues that are deeply important to both of us. And I know these things because Lumi has expressed her disagreement with me directly, cogently, and repeatedly here on this thread.

But Lumi has never, ever told me that I'm probably going to Hell. She's never called me a heretic, or my church heretical. That's not necessarily because she doesn't believe those things; I have no way of knowing whether she thinks that or not. But I know that Lumi never speaks that way to anyone - because she is a kind person, and she exercises self-control, and she seeks common ground, and she prioritizes Christian love over scoring debate points. This is also why I have never, ever, suggested that the Catholic or Orthodox churches - or certain Evangelical Protestant churches, with which I have equally deep disagreements - are illegitimate. It's why I never use the words "blasphemy" or "heresy" to describe the views of anyone on this thread, no matter my private views on the matter. Because I believe that to say any of those things - whether or not they are true - would be contrary to my moral responsibilities as a Christian and to the status of this thread as a shared space for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

That's why I, and so many other Protestants, feel unwelcome here. As a matter of Christian principle, I feel required to censor myself in a way that many here clearly do not. That impulse to self-censorship is a product of the way that most of us in mainline Protestant churches were raised: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Now, I realize that those are our norms, and I'm not necessarily asking you folks to abide by them: different traditions have different forms of etiquette, and that's okay. I'm just letting y'all know that this phenomenon is why it's so hard for many Protestants to participate comfortably on this thread, and it's why this discussion feels so hostile to us. What you do with that information is up to you.

Dude, if you're a devout Christian and you do good deeds and love Jesus, you're fine.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Admittedly, no, but considering how entrenched a lot of people here are in their positions on the matter, I can understand why they might feel a bit ostracized.

"You're a heretic, but that's okay, because you still have a small chance of going to Heaven", or some variation thereof, isn't exactly encouraging discussion.

They're traditionalists, and most learned people in Apostolic traditions are already entrenched in the idea that their Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So, naturally when you have those kinds of people anywhere (that is, people who are devout Apostolics) they're going to say that other churches, particularly Protestants, are incorrect in one way or another.

If the Protestants here are so intimidated and can't give an answer to that, I don't think the problem is with the Apostolics.

Wait a second, I don't come to discuss here Christian topics because I am a traditionalist.

If anything, I am probably the most unorthodox, modernist, Christian among all of you who happens to be a non-denominational of sorts. To the point I have butted heads with at least one of you at any given time because of my rather peculiar approach to Christian issues and Christianity in general.

And you think the problem with protestants is that they feel intimidated? As someone you could consider a protestant because of my non-denominationalism, I don't think that is the case at all.

[Nordengrund]

Protestant here. I think this issue is that a lot of Protestants, especially those of an evangelical or low-church persuasion, don't feel welcome here, so it seems pointless to them to present their views when it is just going to be dismissed as heretical, and that doesn't really encourage discussion.

Also, a lot of the conversations here pertain more to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. There's nothing wrong with that really, but the Protestant may feel he has nothing relevant to contribute to those conversations.

At this point, I'd say a Protestant thread wouldn't be a bad idea.

I'd be okay with that as long as this thread gets renamed the Catholic-Orthodox thread or something along those lines.

[Salus Maior]

They're traditionalists, and most learned people in Apostolic traditions are already entrenched in the idea that their Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So, naturally when you have those kinds of people anywhere (that is, people who are devout Apostolics) they're going to say that other churches, particularly Protestants, are incorrect in one way or another.

If the Protestants here are so intimidated and can't give an answer to that, I don't think the problem is with the Apostolics.

Wait a second, I don't come to discuss here Christian topics because I am a traditionalist.

And you think the problem with protestants is that they feel intimidated? As someone you could consider a protestant because of my non-denominationalism, I don't think that is the case at all.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that if people want to come to a debate/discussion thread then they should be prepared to face criticism,stand up for their positions, and argue for the legitimacy of said position. This thread, like pretty much every other thread on NSG and most certainly would happen on a schismed-off Protestant DT, is that people are going to have strong opinions and arguments that aren't just going to be waved-off because there's a minority (or a silent majority) who disagree. If people just clam up then of course said argument and positions are going to dominate.

[Pasong Tirad]

Wait a second, I don't come to discuss here Christian topics because I am a traditionalist.

And you think the problem with protestants is that they feel intimidated? As someone you could consider a protestant because of my non-denominationalism, I don't think that is the case at all.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that if people want to come to a debate/discussion thread then they should be prepared to face criticism,stand up for their positions, and argue for the legitimacy of said position. This thread, like pretty much every other thread on NSG and most certainly would happen on a schismed-off Protestant DT, is that people are going to have strong opinions and arguments that aren't just going to be waved-off because there's a minority (or a silent majority) who disagree. If people just clam up then of course said argument and positions are going to dominate.

I don't think that's the case at all. The problem is that, rather than viewing Protestant theology as being on the same level as Catholic/Orthodox theology, it's being waived off. The Catholics/Orthodox (I don't mean to generalize) would rather put it down by resorting to calling it heretical rather than attempt to view it as on-par with Catholic/Orthodox theology.

[Salus Maior]

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that if people want to come to a debate/discussion thread then they should be prepared to face criticism,stand up for their positions, and argue for the legitimacy of said position. This thread, like pretty much every other thread on NSG and most certainly would happen on a schismed-off Protestant DT, is that people are going to have strong opinions and arguments that aren't just going to be waved-off because there's a minority (or a silent majority) who disagree. If people just clam up then of course said argument and positions are going to dominate.

I don't think that's the case at all. The problem is that, rather than viewing Protestant theology as being on the same level as Catholic/Orthodox theology, it's being waived off. The Catholics/Orthodox (I don't mean to generalize) would rather put it down by resorting to calling it heretical rather than attempt to view it as on-par with Catholic/Orthodox theology.

Well, according to the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Protestantism is heretical. So, why is it that in this Christian Discussion Thread that the positions of said Christian Churches can't be said? And heresy simply means "incorrect", it's not as though its some abominable curse, it's a statement of belief.

And it should be noted that the Catholics and Orthodox in this thread, within the last few pages, have called each other heretical, incorrect, etc. (and they have for a very long time) and yet neither one have decided to call it quits from the thread.

[Venerable Bede]

Probably because you follow things like situational ethics and so on. I don't, because they're new, they're not ancient theology.

Must you push away every single person who speaks with you? Christ told Peter to put away his sword, perhaps you should follow.

Christ, the Apostles, and all the fathers were much harsher than I am when it came to perversion of the Gospel and heresy...they'd probably be banned for flaming.

[Salus Maior]

Must you push away every single person who speaks with you? Christ told Peter to put away his sword, perhaps you should follow.

Christ, the Apostles, and all the fathers were much harsher than I am when it came to perversion of the Gospel and heresy...they'd probably be banned for flaming.

Well, there's better places for that other than an online discussion forum.

[Venerable Bede]

You're not sure you buy into the idea of God as sustainer? Isn't that Catholic doctrine?

Don't twist words Bede. I'm addressing a specific point, not asserting that God doesn't ever act as a sustainer.

I mean isn't God as a full-time sustainer, Catholic doctrine?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't think that's the case at all. The problem is that, rather than viewing Protestant theology as being on the same level as Catholic/Orthodox theology, it's being waived off. The Catholics/Orthodox (I don't mean to generalize) would rather put it down by resorting to calling it heretical rather than attempt to view it as on-par with Catholic/Orthodox theology.

Well, according to the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Protestantism is heretical. So, why is it that in this Christian Discussion Thread that the positions of said Christian Churches can't be said? And heresy simply means "incorrect", it's not as though its some abominable curse, it's a statement of belief.

And it should be noted that the Catholics and Orthodox in this thread, within the last few pages, have called each other heretical, incorrect, etc. (and they have for a very long time) and yet neither one have decided to call it quits from the thread.

Being called heretical does carry negative connotations. Now, sure, the definition is the one you provided, but I don't think being called heretical is particularly done as a form of definition sometimes.

[Pasong Tirad]

I don't think that's the case at all. The problem is that, rather than viewing Protestant theology as being on the same level as Catholic/Orthodox theology, it's being waived off. The Catholics/Orthodox (I don't mean to generalize) would rather put it down by resorting to calling it heretical rather than attempt to view it as on-par with Catholic/Orthodox theology.

Well, according to the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Protestantism is heretical. So, why is it that in this Christian Discussion Thread that the positions of said Christian Churches can't be said? And heresy simply means "incorrect", it's not as though its some abominable curse, it's a statement of belief.

And it should be noted that the Catholics and Orthodox in this thread, within the last few pages, have called each other heretical, incorrect, etc. (and they have for a very long time) and yet neither one have decided to call it quits from the thread.

Calling Protestant belief heretical isn't being used as an argument, it's being used as a trump card to put down their belief because, really, there's no way to argue around somebody saying "You're a heretic" because there is no argument against it other than "No, you're the heretic."

[United Muscovite Nations]

Well, according to the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Protestantism is heretical. So, why is it that in this Christian Discussion Thread that the positions of said Christian Churches can't be said? And heresy simply means "incorrect", it's not as though its some abominable curse, it's a statement of belief.

And it should be noted that the Catholics and Orthodox in this thread, within the last few pages, have called each other heretical, incorrect, etc. (and they have for a very long time) and yet neither one have decided to call it quits from the thread.

Calling Protestant belief heretical isn't being used as an argument, it's being used as a trump card to put down their belief because, really, there's no way to argue around somebody saying "You're a heretic" because there is no argument against it other than "No, you're the heretic."

I would say it is certainly being used as an argument, that argument being that the Protestants (and Roman Catholics) do not have theological continuity with the ancient Church.

[Geoagorist Territory]

Calling Protestant belief heretical isn't being used as an argument, it's being used as a trump card to put down their belief because, really, there's no way to argue around somebody saying "You're a heretic" because there is no argument against it other than "No, you're the heretic."

I would say it is certainly being used as an argument, that argument being that the Protestants (and Roman Catholics) do not have theological continuity with the ancient Church.

That would be a point in favor for some.