Does free will exist from a secular point of view?

[Conscentia]

"Later". Scrolling to the last three he defends using "free" in it's political, rather than metaphysical, sense. He's not arguing against what I said he was doing - he's acknowledging the confusion over the word "free" but then proceeds to argue against using "free" in a metaphysical sense saying that it's "inappropriate". His solution to the confusion is to do exactly what I said he was doing.

Here~

I reject the idea of "free will" where the word "free" is used to designate exemption from causality. But I also object to the use of the word "free" to designate exemption from causality. Freedom means absence of ongoing compulsion, coercion or constraint. I do not believe that the will is unfree by this use of the word freedom. I believe that the will has been causally determined by the material factors which created it, but that will is not subject to ongoing compulsion. Thus, my objective view that the will is free correlates with my subjective experience of being able to make choices and decisions — of being able to express my will.

Yeah. I saw that. As he says right there, he rejects the metaphysical definition of "free" - 'exemption from causality', and instead applies the definition typically applied to politics.

Casuality is not coercive, according to him, by this viewpoint, as the will - [...]

All that is only relevant if you use his definition of "free", which I don't. I use a definition he objects to.

[Ectique]

The universe started with a big bang (according to the commonly accepted thesis). Literally everything that exists in the universe was contained right then and there (As far as we know). So, if it all started at a single point, then what possible variance is there? There can only be one, inevitable conclusion that just rolls along based on the factors present at the big bang. So if you decide to have toast for breakfast instead of cereal, you may think that it could have gone either way. But really, it couldn't have. Literally everything from the start of the universe has led up to this point.
"Well, I had toast because I overslept."
"Why did you oversleep?"
"Because I was playing video games last night 'til the wee hours."
"Well, why?"
"Because I was raised by parents who didn't discipline me properly and allowed me free reign."
"Why did they do that?"
"Because they were raised by strict parents who made them dislike strict parenting."
"Well why were they so strict?"
"Because they had a long family tradition of strictness."
"Why?"
"Because it saved their country when they were the last bulwark against the Mongols."
...
"Because a 'little ice age' drastically effected their lifestyle."
...
"Because of the Earth's location in the Solar System."
......
"Because of the factors present at the Big Bang."

Do you see my point? Of course, this all changes if quantum mechanics plays a role in variations, or if there are some space-wholes which exchange matter/energy with another universe. Or maybe not. Maybe it just makes changes that are still outside of your control.

Now, let's hear the applause!

[Pelorania]

I think that free will doesn't exist because all the options are chosen. There is a different universe for each of the different options that could have been chosen. You're just stuck experiencing only one of the universes.

[Nusaresa]

Somewhat unsure/leaning on maybe we don't have free will.

Like the whole interdependence we have on one another and to the surrounding environment limits the choices one can make. And somethings seem to be done purely on impulse or instinct, is that really free will?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Somewhat unsure/leaning on maybe we don't have free will.

Like the whole interdependence we have on one another and to the surrounding environment limits the choices one can make. And somethings seem to be done purely on impulse or instinct, is that really free will?

I agree. What would you say is the biggest reason you're leaning that way?

[Nusaresa]

Somewhat unsure/leaning on maybe we don't have free will.

Like the whole interdependence we have on one another and to the surrounding environment limits the choices one can make. And somethings seem to be done purely on impulse or instinct, is that really free will?

I agree. What would you say is the biggest reason you're leaning that way?

Again, it's more of a hunch than anything. The Libet Experiment though does raise a few questions, but beyond that, it's a hunch of mine.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

That's interesting, I'v never even heard of that. Have you heard of the Milgram Experiments or the Obedience Experiments? Basically, 65% of the human population would electrocute a complete stranger with 450 volts of electricity simply because they were told it was important by a polite man. You're right. People are too easy to manipulate.

[Nusaresa]

That's interesting, I'v never even heard of that. Have you heard of the Milgram Experiments or the Obedience Experiments? Basically, 65% of the human population would electrocute a complete stranger with 450 volts of electricity simply because they were told it was important by a polite man. You're right. People are too easy to manipulate.

Those two experiments kept me awake all night when I first read into it after hearing it in my first year psych class c:

But yeah, I'd say it's more interdependence though. We're used to social environments and social norms that it does appear to predetermine our decisions from time to time.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

That's interesting, I'v never even heard of that. Have you heard of the Milgram Experiments or the Obedience Experiments? Basically, 65% of the human population would electrocute a complete stranger with 450 volts of electricity simply because they were told it was important by a polite man. You're right. People are too easy to manipulate.

Those two experiments kept me awake all night when I first read into it after hearing it in my first year psych class c:

But yeah, I'd say it's more interdependence though. We're used to social environments and social norms that it does appear to predetermine our decisions from time to time.

Hmmmm..... you sound specifically like a Biological Determinalist. Those are the ones that believe free will doesn't exist because of factors like genetics, our environment, and societal influences. If I had to choose which philosophy best proved free will was an illusion, I'd probably pick that one.

[Nusaresa]

Those two experiments kept me awake all night when I first read into it after hearing it in my first year psych class c:

But yeah, I'd say it's more interdependence though. We're used to social environments and social norms that it does appear to predetermine our decisions from time to time.

Hmmmm..... you sound specifically like a Biological Determinalist. Those are the ones that believe free will doesn't exist because of factors like genetics, our environment, and societal influences. If I had to choose which philosophy best proved free will was an illusion, I'd probably pick that one.

Maybe, haha.

Another aspect that may have played my bias towards believing that free will is an illusion is probably my Buddhist perspective on the matter. More specifically, Pratītyasamutpāda, which if we strip it of it's mostly esoteric definitions, is similar to that of biological determinism.

Pratityasamutpada is an ontological principle; that is, a theory to explain the nature and relations of being, becoming, existence and ultimate reality. It posits that nothing is truly independent due to how the way nature (presumably) works.

[Conserative Morality]

We live in a deterministic universe. If you're asking in the sense of being free from a deterministic universe, the answer is no.

If you're asking insofar as our understanding of personal consciousness allows us to perceive the world around us and such concepts as 'choice' and 'decisions', then yes. The universe is deterministic on such a granular level that, ironically, in effect, from our point of view, it's hardly deterministic at all.

[Othelos]

That's interesting, I'v never even heard of that. Have you heard of the Milgram Experiments or the Obedience Experiments? Basically, 65% of the human population would electrocute a complete stranger with 450 volts of electricity simply because they were told it was important by a polite man. You're right. People are too easy to manipulate.

Some people are just followers, I guess.

[Old Tyrannia]

The fact that you posted this thread at almost the exact same time as this one suggests to me that you're looking for help with some sort of homework, presumably a question along the lines of "compare Christian and secular attitudes towards the idea of free will." As such I'm locking both threads- try a textbook instead.