Christians: Does free will exist?

[Neanderthaland]

It must make at least a little sense, because there's an entire sub-set of Christianity that definitely believes this.

Now it's not my problem that God might do something that is apparently unjust, and I think it is a tad unreasonable of you to ask me to describe the mind of God. Why should he do anything that he does? Why threaten eternal torture at all? It can't possibly be proportional.

All I did was present a very small amount of textual evidence which definitely suggests that that God at the very least suspended at least one individual's free-will. In response to your assertion that, "It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will."

And it is, if you think that Jesus came for the salvation of sinners.

If sinners were already determined to be sinners by God, then why would they need a salvation mechanism? If they were already predestined and determined to be sinners to burn in hell, then there's no need for Jesus' sacrifice in the cross in regards of Christianity. We might as well say Jesus came for nothing and it's all a sham.

That's precisely what predestination and determinism in regards of Christianity does imply. And so you can see why Christians have to assume a default position of free-will theologically. Otherwise the dogmatic position that Christ came to save sinners doesn't hold at all as a true proposition.

I'm not sure why you think this makes Christ's sacrifice on the cross make less logical sense then it already does.

Again, why does God do anything he does? It's not like God needed to punish the Egyptians to free the Israelites, he could have just magiced them out of there. He chose to go about it in a more theatrical way. And he made sure that Pharaoh didn't give in too early, so he could really go all-out. That's kind of weird, don't you think?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And it is, if you think that Jesus came for the salvation of sinners.

If sinners were already determined to be sinners by God, then why would they need a salvation mechanism? If they were already predestined and determined to be sinners to burn in hell, then there's no need for Jesus' sacrifice in the cross in regards of Christianity. We might as well say Jesus came for nothing and it's all a sham.

That's precisely what predestination and determinism in regards of Christianity does imply. And so you can see why Christians have to assume a default position of free-will theologically. Otherwise the dogmatic position that Christ came to save sinners doesn't hold at all as a true proposition.

I'm not sure why you think this makes Christ's sacrifice on the cross make less logical sense then it already does.

Because the topic is about Christianity and whether or not free will exists in a Christian point of view.

In order for determinism to be true, then the salvation through Christ as a theological point for Christianity is false.

[Neanderthaland]

I'm not sure why you think this makes Christ's sacrifice on the cross make less logical sense then it already does.

Because the topic is about Christianity and whether or not free will exists in a Christian point of view.

Yes, but if vicarious redemption doesn't make sense, then saying "that would make vicarious redemption not make sense" wouldn't be a very compelling argument.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Because the topic is about Christianity and whether or not free will exists in a Christian point of view.

Yes, but if vicarious redemption doesn't make sense, then saying "that would make vicarious redemption not make sense" wouldn't be a very compelling argument.

And that's a secular way to look at it.

The reason why vicarious redemption makes sense is because, by offering the Son of God to the world, God is ending the era of sacrifices in God's name in the temple because he is giving the ultimate sacrifice in order to remove Original Sin from man. This is explicitly a Christian point of view.

Now, if we're looking at it at a pure secular way then yes, Christ's sacrifice doesn't make any sense and Calvinists would not be incorrect, neither would anyone else as it is all pure myth embedded on a man who died for a crime he didn't commit.

However, since this is a discussion about whether or not Christians believe in free will, one has to give a theological explanation for it. If there was such a thing as determinism then within Christian theology the sacrifice in the cross would not make any sense.

[Philjia]

I'm not sure why you think this makes Christ's sacrifice on the cross make less logical sense then it already does.

Because the topic is about Christianity and whether or not free will exists in a Christian point of view.

In order for determinism to be true, then the salvation through Christ as a theological point for Christianity is false.

Christianity is logically paradoxical. It necessitates that God can allow us to make independent decisions even though every decision we make is dependent on the act of creation itself.

[Old Tyrannia]

The fact that you posted this thread at almost the exact same time as this one suggests to me that you're looking for help with some sort of homework, presumably a question along the lines of "compare Christian and secular attitudes towards the idea of free will." As such I'm locking both threads- try a textbook instead.