Christians: Does free will exist?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Exactly what I'm driving at.

God is all-knowing, which means he knows everything. However, God decided to not have any power over human will, therefore he just can hope humans take the path which will honor Him. Meaning that, while he can know all the outcomes in his head, he leaves the choice to humans to make a choice and all he can do is hope humans make the right choice, if any.

You just described all of my ideas on the matter perfectly right there.

GOD CAN JUST HOPE?!?! He doesn't have to hope, he knows the future and the spiritual end to all of us. And he put some of us in areas, where he knew our faith would fumble or never exist. I don't know why. He's just and incomprehensible. What do you do with that?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. So you're saying that if, theoretically, all would-be Islamic terrorist were raised in the bible belt instead of in the middle east, that his chances of meeting Jesus are the same?

2. "He will punish those who do not know God … They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." — 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

So actually, they're not saved.
3. I agree, Christians ought to hope that people are saved by the grace of God. However, we have to admit that there are some locations where meeting Jesus would be easier. Location can mean everything. And since God "knitted us in our mothers womb" (I think that's the verse) he determines our location. And he knows what will happen at those locations. Therefore, even our grace is determined before time started.

1. Yes, you are correct. However, Islam is considered as one of the three "Abrahamic" religions, and so while they believe in our God, they believe in a different conception of Jesus. That's not a real issue for Salvation by Grace though. It is an issue if you do not believe in salvation through grace.

2. While 2 Thessalonians says that, in context to the rest of Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings it should be interpreted as those who willingly do not know him, meaning, those who have heard of the Gospel and rejected it. Those who have not heard of God is a different audience as those who do not know God.

3. Sure, location means everything, but not everything means location. Also, that verse applies only to Job and Jeremiah. It doesn't necessarily apply to other human beings.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You just described all of my ideas on the matter perfectly right there.

GOD CAN JUST HOPE?!?! He doesn't have to hope, he knows the future and the spiritual end to all of us. And he put some of us in areas, where he knew our faith would fumble or never exist. I don't know why. He's just and incomprehensible. What do you do with that?

The Christian answer is not bother, because it's not our role to judge or predict how God will deal with them. God already knows all the probabilities, and so God can only sit back and hope the human in question follows the law as close as possible in his heart.

Paul himself has said in the Bible that, those who have never heard of the law are a law on themselves, and they will be judged accordingly to the manifestations of the law which they understand.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

GOD CAN JUST HOPE?!?! He doesn't have to hope, he knows the future and the spiritual end to all of us. And he put some of us in areas, where he knew our faith would fumble or never exist. I don't know why. He's just and incomprehensible. What do you do with that?

The Christian answer is not bother, because it's not our role to judge or predict how God will deal with them. God already knows all the probabilities, and so God can only sit back and hope the human in question follows the law as close as possible in his heart.

Paul himself has said in the Bible that, those who have never heard of the law are a law on themselves, and they will be judged accordingly to the manifestations of the law which they understand.

But God is all knowing. He can't hope for something that he knows will or will not happen. And uhhhhhhh.......https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/28-if-someone-never-hears-the-gospel-can-they-still-go-to-heaven/

Turns out the bible just can't decide. Haha!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The Christian answer is not bother, because it's not our role to judge or predict how God will deal with them. God already knows all the probabilities, and so God can only sit back and hope the human in question follows the law as close as possible in his heart.

Paul himself has said in the Bible that, those who have never heard of the law are a law on themselves, and they will be judged accordingly to the manifestations of the law which they understand.

But God is all knowing. He can't hope for something that he knows will or will not happen. And uhhhhhhh.......

https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/28-if-someone-never-hears-the-gospel-can-they-still-go-to-heaven/

Turns out the bible just can't decide. Haha!

God is all knowing, he just doesn't have the capacity to string a man around like a puppet. He has to rely on the human in question to follow his will. In such a sense, he knows all the possibilities, but he cannot intervene in order to save the human or damn him. The human in question has to come to that end themselves.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

But God is all knowing. He can't hope for something that he knows will or will not happen. And uhhhhhhh.......

https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/28-if-someone-never-hears-the-gospel-can-they-still-go-to-heaven/

Turns out the bible just can't decide. Haha!

God is all knowing, he just doesn't have the capacity to string a man around like a puppet. He has to rely on the human in question to follow his will. In such a sense, he knows all the possibilities, but he cannot intervene in order to save the human or damn him. The human in question has to come to that end themselves.

Biblical source please. If it's extra-biblical, then there needs to a logic chain of some kind. Why does he have to rely on the human? How does he not have the capacity? How can he not intervene(especially when he's done this in the bible and such)?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

And a friendly reminder to take the survey!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

God is all knowing, he just doesn't have the capacity to string a man around like a puppet. He has to rely on the human in question to follow his will. In such a sense, he knows all the possibilities, but he cannot intervene in order to save the human or damn him. The human in question has to come to that end themselves.

Biblical source please. If it's extra-biblical, then there needs to a logic chain of some kind. Why does he have to rely on the human? How does he not have the capacity? How can he not intervene(especially when he's done this in the bible and such)?

Basically the entirety of the New Testament deals with this. From Matthew, to Paul's letters, to the Apocalypse deals with the issue that humans are still free to choose while God doesn't intervene.

He has to rely on the human will because he has decided not to interfere with human will at all. As such, God has rendered himself incapable of forcing a human to salvation. Which makes sense by Jesus words, that those who choose him will be saved, not those who know of him and have faith. Even the Devil knows God exists, but he is not saved.

He doesn't have the capacity because he chose not to enforce it. He's letting everyone find their own path to salvation.

It's not that he cannot intervene, is that he chooses not to, as such he cannot.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Everybody pray for me. I'm about to babysit 8 of the rowdiest kids in Missouri. Enjoy the forum.

[Jumalariik]

Everybody pray for me. I'm about to babysit 8 of the rowdiest kids in Missouri. Enjoy the forum.

Haha have fun.




Depends on what you mean.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Biblical source please. If it's extra-biblical, then there needs to a logic chain of some kind. Why does he have to rely on the human? How does he not have the capacity? How can he not intervene(especially when he's done this in the bible and such)?

Basically the entirety of the New Testament deals with this. From Matthew, to Paul's letters, to the Apocalypse deals with the issue that humans are still free to choose while God doesn't intervene.

He has to rely on the human will because he has decided not to interfere with human will at all. As such, God has rendered himself incapable of forcing a human to salvation. Which makes sense by Jesus words, that those who choose him will be saved, not those who know of him and have faith. Even the Devil knows God exists, but he is not saved.

He doesn't have the capacity because he chose not to enforce it. He's letting everyone find their own path to salvation.

It's not that he cannot intervene, is that he chooses not to, as such he cannot.

What from Matthew? What part of Paul's letters? And the apocalypse is something us determinalist bring up! It is a prophesy! Prophesy is like the natural enemy to free will! God shows his knowledge of the future and it's unbiblical to say anything there won't happen. The events are inevitable. And God already has planned who will be the catalyst for certain events. The Antichrist, the witnesses, everybody! Their roles are inevitable, as is all of ours.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Basically the entirety of the New Testament deals with this. From Matthew, to Paul's letters, to the Apocalypse deals with the issue that humans are still free to choose while God doesn't intervene.

He has to rely on the human will because he has decided not to interfere with human will at all. As such, God has rendered himself incapable of forcing a human to salvation. Which makes sense by Jesus words, that those who choose him will be saved, not those who know of him and have faith. Even the Devil knows God exists, but he is not saved.

He doesn't have the capacity because he chose not to enforce it. He's letting everyone find their own path to salvation.

It's not that he cannot intervene, is that he chooses not to, as such he cannot.

What from Matthew? What part of Paul's letters? And the apocalypse is something us determinalist bring up! It is a prophesy! Prophesy is like the natural enemy to free will! God shows his knowledge of the future and it's unbiblical to say anything there won't happen. The events are inevitable. And God already has planned who will be the catalyst for certain events. The Antichrist, the witnesses, everybody! Their roles are inevitable, as is all of ours.

Jesus Christ (metaphorically).

One of the New Testament's overarching themes is the concept of salvation by choice for Christians. Basically, in every book, there's at least one reference to salvation by choice being the most powerful type of salvation there is because it is an ensured type of salvation, and how to achieve it as a Christian.

Even in the Apocalypse, there is a very heavy enforcement of choosing salvation. Also, let's not forget from Jonah (which someone else brought up) that Niniveh was prophesized doom and they got saved because one person repented. Ominous Prophecies, in the Biblical context, can be avoided if one repents.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

What from Matthew? What part of Paul's letters? And the apocalypse is something us determinalist bring up! It is a prophesy! Prophesy is like the natural enemy to free will! God shows his knowledge of the future and it's unbiblical to say anything there won't happen. The events are inevitable. And God already has planned who will be the catalyst for certain events. The Antichrist, the witnesses, everybody! Their roles are inevitable, as is all of ours.

Jesus Christ (metaphorically).

One of the New Testament's overarching themes is the concept of salvation by choice for Christians. Basically, in every book, there's at least one reference to salvation by choice being the most powerful type of salvation there is because it is an ensured type of salvation, and how to achieve it as a Christian.

Even in the Apocalypse, there is a very heavy enforcement of choosing salvation. Also, let's not forget from Jonah (which someone else brought up) that Niniveh was prophesized doom and they got saved because one person repented. Ominous Prophecies, in the Biblical context, can be avoided if one repents.

We can keep going in circles and circles. I don't think either one of us will budge here. But hey, well played friend.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

A friendly reminder to vote!

[Neanderthaland]

Biblically? Yes.

It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will.

Is it? Doesn't omniscience imply that the future is fixed and cannot change?

God does seem to hold individuals accountable for their actions, but it's not necessarily the case that this means they were free to make them. God didn't seem to have a problem with punishing Pharaoh even though he apparently forced him to act a certain way by "hardening his heart."

I don't love Calvinism, but it's existence does seem to imply that Christians are able to reconcile determinism and the Bible.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Biblically? Yes.

It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will.

Is it? Doesn't omniscience imply that the future is fixed and cannot change?

God does seem to hold individuals accountable for their actions, but it's not necessarily the case that this means they were free to make them. God didn't seem to have a problem with punishing Pharaoh even though he apparently forced him to act a certain way by "hardening his heart."

I don't love Calvinism, but it's existence does seem to imply that Christians are able to reconcile determinism and the Bible.

Omniscience implies that you know all possible outcomes in traditional Christianity. In such a way there is free-will.

While God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh, this doesn't necessarily mean God puppetstrung the Pharaoh into treating Israelites like shit.

Calvinist determinism is a rather heretical doctrine when it comes to Christianity. Heretical meaning in formal error. The reason why it is such is because theological determinism implies that man's actions are already preordained by a cosmic power, whereas a few Calvinist will argue from this point of view, it is worth noting that Calvinist preordination is a form of determinism in that God already knows whether or not you will be saved. If everything was preordained by God, then why punish the sinful? And where does that leave the Christian believer?

[Neanderthaland]

Is it? Doesn't omniscience imply that the future is fixed and cannot change?

God does seem to hold individuals accountable for their actions, but it's not necessarily the case that this means they were free to make them. God didn't seem to have a problem with punishing Pharaoh even though he apparently forced him to act a certain way by "hardening his heart."

I don't love Calvinism, but it's existence does seem to imply that Christians are able to reconcile determinism and the Bible.

Omniscience implies that you know all possible outcomes in traditional Christianity. In such a way there is free-will.

I will grant that "In such a way there is free-will" is a fairly typical caveat of "traditional Christianity," but the first part is simply not true. It's both not true that this is a traditional view, nor is it true that this is what omniscience implies. If you don't know with certainty what actually will happen, you are not omniscient.

While God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh, this doesn't necessarily mean God puppetstrung the Pharaoh into treating Israelites like shit.

No, he puppetstrung Pharaoh into refusing to release them.

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

I can't imagine any other reasonable interpretation.

Calvinist determinism is a rather heretical doctrine when it comes to Christianity. Heretical meaning in formal error. The reason why it is such is because theological determinism implies that man's actions are already preordained by a cosmic power. If everything was preordained by God, then why punish the sinful? And where does that leave the Christian believer?

Well, as we just established with Pharaoh: God apparently doesn't have a problem with punishing people for doing things he made them do.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Omniscience implies that you know all possible outcomes in traditional Christianity. In such a way there is free-will.

I will grant that "In such a way there is free-will" is a fairly typical caveat of "traditional Christianity," but the first part is simply not true. It's both not true that this is a traditional view, nor is it true that this is what omniscience implies. If you don't know with certainty what actually will happen, you are not omniscient.

While God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh, this doesn't necessarily mean God puppetstrung the Pharaoh into treating Israelites like shit.

No, he puppetstrung Pharaoh into refusing to release them.

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

I can't imagine any other reasonable interpretation.

Calvinist determinism is a rather heretical doctrine when it comes to Christianity. Heretical meaning in formal error. The reason why it is such is because theological determinism implies that man's actions are already preordained by a cosmic power. If everything was preordained by God, then why punish the sinful? And where does that leave the Christian believer?

Well, as we just established with Pharaoh: God apparently doesn't have a problem with punishing people for doing things he made them do.

Just because God hardened the heart of Pharaoh doesn't mean Pharaoh didn't have a choice.

Pharaoh still had the choice to let them go on his own free will despite God's heart-hardening for any other reason. He didn't.

And when it comes to omniscience, there's plenty of definitions. The common definition is "all-knowing", but all-knowing doesn't necessarily mean you will predict what creatures with free-will are going to do.

For instance, I could spend my lifetime learning about dogs, and if I had unlimited time to do so, I'd become so acquainted with dogs that I'd know what the different responses of a dog are, in other words, I'd become all-knowing about that specific dog. That doesn't mean I actually know what a particular dog will do.

[Neanderthaland]

I will grant that "In such a way there is free-will" is a fairly typical caveat of "traditional Christianity," but the first part is simply not true. It's both not true that this is a traditional view, nor is it true that this is what omniscience implies. If you don't know with certainty what actually will happen, you are not omniscient.


No, he puppetstrung Pharaoh into refusing to release them.

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

I can't imagine any other reasonable interpretation.


Well, as we just established with Pharaoh: God apparently doesn't have a problem with punishing people for doing things he made them do.

Just because God hardened the heart of Pharaoh doesn't mean Pharaoh didn't have a choice.

That is definitely what the text implies.

Pharaoh still had the choice to let them go on his own free will despite God's heart-hardening for any other reason. He didn't.

You are begging the question.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Just because God hardened the heart of Pharaoh doesn't mean Pharaoh didn't have a choice.

That is definitely what the text implies.

Pharaoh still had the choice to let them go on his own free will despite God's heart-hardening for any other reason. He didn't.

You are begging the question.

You're reading the text in a way that implies that the pharaoh didn't have a choice.

Read it again, it says that Pharaoh would not listen to Aaron and Moses, not that he couldn't choose to let them emigrate, and not that he couldn't let them have an audience even though he didn't want to listen to them.

God never interfered with the Pharaoh's freedom of choice to do these things, he merely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh in order to make his outcome more likely, but that still doesn't rob Pharaoh of free will biblically.

[Neanderthaland]

That is definitely what the text implies.


You are begging the question.

You're reading the text in a way that implies that the pharaoh didn't have a choice.

Read it again, it says that Pharaoh would not listen to Aaron and Moses, not that he couldn't choose to let them emigrate, and not that he couldn't let them have an audience even though he didn't want to listen to them.

God never interfered with the Pharaoh's freedom of choice to do these things, he merely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh in order to make his outcome more likely, but that still doesn't rob Pharaoh of free will biblically.

God does not play dice.

[Galloism]

You're reading the text in a way that implies that the pharaoh didn't have a choice.

Read it again, it says that Pharaoh would not listen to Aaron and Moses, not that he couldn't choose to let them emigrate, and not that he couldn't let them have an audience even though he didn't want to listen to them.

God never interfered with the Pharaoh's freedom of choice to do these things, he merely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh in order to make his outcome more likely, but that still doesn't rob Pharaoh of free will biblically.

God does not play dice.

Hey, I've played with dice before.

... kind of. Depending on your definition of the word "play".

[Soldati Senza Confini]

God does not play dice.

Then answer me this: If there is no free-will and God can puppet string whomever He wants to, why threaten the sinner to eternal torture?

Also, if this is all just a giant cosmic rig, why send Jesus to die in the cross at all? He already could have predicted people were still going to sin and that Jews were not going to accept him as the Messiah so the entire salvation point didn't even exist.

You keep thinking of God's omnipotence and omniscience in a way that makes zero sense given the theological background of Christianity.

[Neanderthaland]

God does not play dice.

Then answer me this: If there is no free-will and God can puppet string whomever He wants to, why threaten the sinner to eternal torture?

You keep thinking of God's omnipotence and omniscience in a way that makes zero sense given the theological background of Christianity.

It must make at least a little sense, because there's an entire sub-set of Christianity that definitely believes this.

Now it's not my problem that God might do something that is apparently unjust, and I think it is a tad unreasonable of you to ask me to describe the mind of God. Why should he do anything that he does? Why threaten eternal torture at all? It can't possibly be proportional.

All I did was present a very small amount of textual evidence which definitely suggests that that God at the very least suspended at least one individual's free-will. In response to your assertion that, "It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Then answer me this: If there is no free-will and God can puppet string whomever He wants to, why threaten the sinner to eternal torture?

You keep thinking of God's omnipotence and omniscience in a way that makes zero sense given the theological background of Christianity.

It must make at least a little sense, because there's an entire sub-set of Christianity that definitely believes this.

Now it's not my problem that God might do something that is apparently unjust, and I think it is a tad unreasonable of you to ask me to describe the mind of God. Why should he do anything that he does? Why threaten eternal torture at all? It can't possibly be proportional.

All I did was present a very small amount of textual evidence which definitely suggests that that God at the very least suspended at least one individual's free-will. In response to your assertion that, "It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will."

And it is, if you think that Jesus came for the salvation of sinners.

If sinners were already determined to be sinners by God, then why would they need a salvation mechanism? If they were already predestined and determined to be sinners to burn in hell, then there's no need for Jesus' sacrifice in the cross in regards of Christianity. We might as well say Jesus came for nothing and it's all a sham.

That's precisely what predestination and determinism in regards of Christianity does imply. And so you can see why Christians have to assume a default position of free-will theologically. Otherwise the dogmatic position that Christ came to save sinners doesn't hold at all as a true proposition.