Christians: Does free will exist?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Biblical example: Adam and Eve

God created Lucifer (or if Lucifer is eternal, God allowed him to exist)
God created Lucifer, knowing that if he praised him and gave him authority, he'd turn against him.
God gave him authority.
God allowed Lucifer to live after falling.
God allowed Lucifer into the garden.
God created man.
God gave a command that he knew mankind would ignore
God knew Satan would tempt Adam and Eve
God allowed Satan to tempt.
God knew in the beginning this would create sin.
God allowed the creation of sin.

Eden was the computer system. Adam, Even, and Satan were programs. God was the man who knew all possible outcomes and chose this one. Therefore, Adam, Eve, and Satan in the grand scheme of things didn't have a choice.

Whoa whoa whoa. Be careful on your theological conclusions there.

If Adam, Eve, and Satan did not have a choice in the matter then why did God punish woman with birth pains and cursed the entire land because of the folly of man?

You're saying he allowed sin to happen, but for that to be true you also have to make a reasoning that absolves Adam and Eve from the punishment of their folly, given that God punished them, and you can't precisely go "well they shouldn't have and God was unjust" because for that to be true then you'd enter into another set of theological justifications to justify how God was unjust.

God is described as a righteous judge and beyond human understanding. I don't know why he punished them, but the logic points to God knowing this would happen and doing things the way he did anyway. I don't need to know his reasoning or intent to come to that conclusion. And to say that God didn't just allow sin to happen is to take away his omniscience. Finally, for people to truly disobey Gods will, they have to break disobey his plan. And for God's plan to be foiled, he must not be omnipotent. That's not biblical.

[Balican]

Perosnally, free will is very much a thing. If free will didn't exist, rather than God telling someone to do something he could have just made them do it. The best example was Abraham and the binding of Isaac. It was a test to determine weather Abraham would do everything God told him to. If he could just force people to do things then it wouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons it cited that demons were so terrible, because they could take over someone's body(removing their free will).

But God set up Abraham's environment where he knew he would try to sacrifice him. In fact, the act of telling Abraham to do this, and knowing that he would obey, shows a lack of free will.

It was to show his total devotion. God used it as an example and not just to test him(God knows all things, so he would know if Abraham did trust him). God could have just possessed him and made him do whatever he wanted, but the fact that he had him do it was to show that it was hard and that he didn't want to, but did anyway. Similar to what God did with Jesus. There is a theory that those events took place on the same hilll and quite possibly the same exact spot.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

But God set up Abraham's environment where he knew he would try to sacrifice him. In fact, the act of telling Abraham to do this, and knowing that he would obey, shows a lack of free will.

It was to show his total devotion. God used it as an example and not just to test him(God knows all things, so he would know if Abraham did trust him). God could have just possessed him and made him do whatever he wanted, but the fact that he had him do it was to show that it was hard and that he didn't want to, but did anyway. Similar to what God did with Jesus. There is a theory that those events took place on the same hilll and quite possibly the same exact spot.

God "possessing" people is an example of hard determinism. I don't think of God as a puppet master.

1.God told Abraham to sacrafice his son.
2.God knew Abraham would obey. He crafted Abraham using an array of omnipotent variables in his life.
3.God knowing he would obey, and crafting Abe in such a way as to lead in into a position in his life where he was as faithful as he was, took away Abes ability to actually control his own life.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

You'd be hard pressed to find an example in the bible where free will can't be turned into a simple illusion. God says he literally HATED Esau and loved his brother Jacob. (which is odd, considering all sins are equal in the eyes of the lord, I don't remember Esau worshiping false gods or anything like that during the trap) That's how Jacob came to earn the birthright. He outwitted his brother, something God started by making Jacob smart and Esau impulsive, and the rest is history. That's why Jacobs people were to flourish, and Esau's were to fail.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

God is described as a righteous judge and beyond human understanding. I don't know why he punished them, but the logic points to God knowing this would happen and doing things the way he did anyway. I don't need to know his reasoning or intent to come to that conclusion. And to say that God didn't just allow sin to happen is to take away his omniscience. Finally, for people to truly disobey Gods will, they have to break disobey his plan. And for God's plan to be foiled, he must not be omnipotent. That's not biblical.

But then if God is omnipotent, does he also not have the ability to not step in to administer man's will?

You're confusing the word omnipotent with Omni-interventionist. Just because a being is all powerful, doesn't mean he interferes in everything.

In fact you can have a deity that is both omnipotent and not intervene with human affairs at all.

[Balican]

It was to show his total devotion. God used it as an example and not just to test him(God knows all things, so he would know if Abraham did trust him). God could have just possessed him and made him do whatever he wanted, but the fact that he had him do it was to show that it was hard and that he didn't want to, but did anyway. Similar to what God did with Jesus. There is a theory that those events took place on the same hilll and quite possibly the same exact spot.

God "possessing" people is an example of hard determinism. I don't think of God as a puppet master.

1.God told Abraham to sacrafice his son.
2.God knew Abraham would obey. He crafted Abraham using an array of omnipotent variables in his life.
3.God knowing he would obey, and crafting Abe in such a way as to lead in into a position in his life where he was as faithful as he was, took away Abes ability to actually control his own life.

There's a difference in knowing everything that will happen to someone and taking someone over to force them to do it. There may be repercussions(see Jonah), but all the prophets had done that of their own will. Look a Job, all the terrible things that had happened to him, God knew about. He also knew that he wouldn't break under that strain of it. God knows everything and can do anything, but he can't force someone to do something they outright refuse. The reason he chose Job, was because of his faithfulness,anyone else and they might have broken and put and egg on God's face. Instead of possessing Jonah, he punished him and set him right. It would have been just as easy to take his free will away and make him go to Nineveh. However, Jonah refused and was punished, but later realised that he was in the wrong.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There's a difference in knowing everything that will happen to someone and taking someone over to force them to do it. There may be repercussions(see Jonah), but all the prophets had done that of their own will. Look a Job, all the terrible things that had happened to him, God knew about. He also knew that he wouldn't break under that strain of it. God knows everything and can do anything, but he can't force someone to do something they outright refuse. The reason he chose Job, was because of his faithfulness,anyone else and they might have broken and put and egg on God's face. Instead of possessing Jonah, he punished him and set him right. It would have been just as easy to take his free will away and make him go to Nineveh. However, Jonah refused and was punished, but later realised that he was in the wrong.

And even then Job broke down and went into a huge rant (which is what composes most of his book) against his friends who tried to lead him astray, and even rebuked God once or twice with questions such as "why do you let me live like this?" and "for what purpose do you give men wealth, just so you can take it away?", for which God rebuked back something along the lines of "Why are you asking me these questions? I am your God, you don't question my will because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it to begin with, and if you did, you would understand why I do what I do to begin with." and Job felt embarrassed.

[Deladara]

As a Christian, I believe free will exists. Just think about it, all the things that the Bible says we should and shouldn't do. It says we shouldn't eat meat, I eat meet, it says a man should not love another man, I have friends who are Christian and Gay. What about the Ten Commandments, I can think of numerous times when I've broken one or more. I believe, if free will didn't exist, then you would not have even asked this question. The very fact that you have asked, is exercising of free will.
Feel free to come up with a rebuke to me, I like to stay open to all other opinions

[Gages Icelandic Army]

God is described as a righteous judge and beyond human understanding. I don't know why he punished them, but the logic points to God knowing this would happen and doing things the way he did anyway. I don't need to know his reasoning or intent to come to that conclusion. And to say that God didn't just allow sin to happen is to take away his omniscience. Finally, for people to truly disobey Gods will, they have to break disobey his plan. And for God's plan to be foiled, he must not be omnipotent. That's not biblical.

But then if God is omnipotent, does he also not have the ability to not step in to administer man's will?

You're confusing the word omnipotent with Omni-interventionist. Just because a being is all powerful, doesn't mean he interferes in everything.

In fact you can have a deity that is both omnipotent and not intervene with human affairs at all.

He rarely steps in to administer mans will directly. He usually just manipulates our surroundings.

And Omni-interventionist refers to a god that directly controls all things, including people. I don't believe that. I believe what I wrote above.

And I don't think you can. Can you give a biblical example where someone truly broke the will of God? (FYI Just because God punishes an action doesn't mean that it was an example of free will. God is described and incomprehensible and a righteous judge. He does what he wants, and we'll only comprehend it when ascend.) If there is one, I'll switch my vote in the polls.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Soldati Senza Confini, you sound like a Determinalist. Are you?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But then if God is omnipotent, does he also not have the ability to not step in to administer man's will?

You're confusing the word omnipotent with Omni-interventionist. Just because a being is all powerful, doesn't mean he interferes in everything.

In fact you can have a deity that is both omnipotent and not intervene with human affairs at all.

He rarely steps in to administer mans will directly. He usually just manipulates our surroundings.

And Omni-interventionist refers to a god that directly controls all things, including people. I don't believe that. I believe what I wrote above.

And I don't think you can. Can you give a biblical example where someone truly broke the will of God? (FYI Just because God punishes an action doesn't mean that it was an example of free will. God is described and incomprehensible and a righteous judge. He does what he wants, and we'll only comprehend it when ascend.) If there is one, I'll switch my vote in the polls.

I'm not necessarily saying a non-interventionist deity exists in Christianity (although a strong support of God not intervening is done by deists), what I am saying though is that you can have one in mythology or modern religions.

God limits his interventionism throughout the Bible. Because God doesn't want to manipulate man, he gives man a choice, and in fact this is the case in the New Testament where God abolishes Jewish laws and theocracy for every man to be able to choose Jesus Christ as their savior and the son of God, which is precisely giving men the greatest liberty in regards of their salvation.

[Balican]

There's a difference in knowing everything that will happen to someone and taking someone over to force them to do it. There may be repercussions(see Jonah), but all the prophets had done that of their own will. Look a Job, all the terrible things that had happened to him, God knew about. He also knew that he wouldn't break under that strain of it. God knows everything and can do anything, but he can't force someone to do something they outright refuse. The reason he chose Job, was because of his faithfulness,anyone else and they might have broken and put and egg on God's face. Instead of possessing Jonah, he punished him and set him right. It would have been just as easy to take his free will away and make him go to Nineveh. However, Jonah refused and was punished, but later realised that he was in the wrong.

And even then Job broke down and went into a huge rant (which is what composes most of his book) against his friends who tried to lead him astray, and even rebuked God once or twice with questions such as "why do you let me live like this?" and "for what purpose do you give men wealth, just so you can take it away?", for which God rebuked back something along the lines of "Why are you asking me these questions? I am your God, you don't question my will because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it to begin with, and if you did, you would understand why I do what I do to begin with." and Job felt embarrassed.

Job was a story of setting up what true humbleness can do for someone. Any of those times when Job was feeling really down, he could have killed himself. That would have made God feel terrible, but he knew that he had willpower to withhold it and return with a greater understanding and belief than he had before. The story of Gideon could have been easily solved by God possessing the fighting population of Israel and make them fight, but instead of that easy solution, he had he tell people to start leaving if they didn't want to fight, drank water wrong( I still don't get that part), or other things. At the end when there were only a few, he blessed them and gave them strength to masacre the enemy army. There are so many things that could be solved easier if he just took over a few people and solved it himself. So either he just wants and entertaing movie to watch that he makes up as he goes along, or he is just sadistic and sets everyone for failure from the start.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And even then Job broke down and went into a huge rant (which is what composes most of his book) against his friends who tried to lead him astray, and even rebuked God once or twice with questions such as "why do you let me live like this?" and "for what purpose do you give men wealth, just so you can take it away?", for which God rebuked back something along the lines of "Why are you asking me these questions? I am your God, you don't question my will because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it to begin with, and if you did, you would understand why I do what I do to begin with." and Job felt embarrassed.

Job was a story of setting up what true humbleness can do for someone. Any of those times when Job was feeling really down, he could have killed himself. That would have made God feel terrible, but he knew that he had willpower to withhold it and return with a greater understanding and belief than he had before. The story of Gideon could have been easily solved by God possessing the fighting population of Israel and make them fight, but instead of that easy solution, he had he tell people to start leaving if they didn't want to fight, drank water wrong( I still don't get that part), or other things. At the end when there were only a few, he blessed them and gave them strength to masacre the enemy army. There are so many things that could be solved easier if he just took over a few people and solved it himself. So either he just wants and entertaing movie to watch that he makes up as he goes along, or he is just sadistic and sets everyone for failure from the start.

Actually, Job story in and of itself (the book, not just the first few chapters) are an example of a time when God thought wrong of a person.

God is made to sound in the story as someone who is naïve and looks at Job as the kindest, most good man on Earth. Job's failure in his philosophical rantings/musings was unpredictable even for God, and for Satan, who hoped Job would end up cursing God and turning away from Him.

At least, in context of the story.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Soldati Senza Confini, you sound like a Determinalist. Are you?

I dunno, why do you think of me as a determinist?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

He rarely steps in to administer mans will directly. He usually just manipulates our surroundings.

And Omni-interventionist refers to a god that directly controls all things, including people. I don't believe that. I believe what I wrote above.

And I don't think you can. Can you give a biblical example where someone truly broke the will of God? (FYI Just because God punishes an action doesn't mean that it was an example of free will. God is described and incomprehensible and a righteous judge. He does what he wants, and we'll only comprehend it when ascend.) If there is one, I'll switch my vote in the polls.

I'm not necessarily saying a non-interventionist deity exists in Christianity (although a strong support of God not intervening is done by deists), what I am saying though is that you can have one in mythology or modern religions.

God limits his interventionism throughout the Bible. Because God doesn't want to manipulate man, he gives man a choice, and in fact this is the case in the New Testament where God abolishes Jewish laws and theocracy for every man to be able to choose Jesus Christ as their savior and the son of God, which is precisely giving men the greatest liberty in regards of their salvation.

I gotcha. Please remember that this is strictly talking about the bible.
There are undoubtedly atheist that if they just lived in the next city over, they would be Christian and vice versa. Even the choice to accept is based mostly on ones surroundings. He created Native American Civilizations that wouldn't hear the name of Christ until thousands of years later. It was determined "in the beginning" that these people would be pretty much damned to hell the second they were born. Not because God decided where they were going regardless of their spiritual state. But because Got put them in a area isolated from the influence of the Christ.

[Balican]

Job was a story of setting up what true humbleness can do for someone. Any of those times when Job was feeling really down, he could have killed himself. That would have made God feel terrible, but he knew that he had willpower to withhold it and return with a greater understanding and belief than he had before. The story of Gideon could have been easily solved by God possessing the fighting population of Israel and make them fight, but instead of that easy solution, he had he tell people to start leaving if they didn't want to fight, drank water wrong( I still don't get that part), or other things. At the end when there were only a few, he blessed them and gave them strength to masacre the enemy army. There are so many things that could be solved easier if he just took over a few people and solved it himself. So either he just wants and entertaing movie to watch that he makes up as he goes along, or he is just sadistic and sets everyone for failure from the start.

Actually, Job story in and of itself (the book, not just the first few chapters) are an example of a time when God thought wrong of a person.

God is made to sound in the story as someone who is naïve and looks at Job as the kindest, most good man on Earth. Job's failure in his philosophical rantings/musings was unpredictable even for God, and for Satan, who hoped Job would end up cursing God and turning away from Him.

At least, in context of the story.

If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

And because you posted, "And even then Job broke down and went into a huge rant (which is what composes most of his book) against his friends who tried to lead him astray, and even rebuked God once or twice with questions such as "why do you let me live like this?" and "for what purpose do you give men wealth, just so you can take it away?", for which God rebuked back something along the lines of "Why are you asking me these questions? I am your God, you don't question my will because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it to begin with, and if you did, you would understand why I do what I do to begin with." and Job felt embarrassed."

It kinda sounded like you were vouching for determinalism. You brought up that God basically said his will can't be defied. It's chill if you don't tho.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

"If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist."
It was predictable by God. The bible says he's all knowing.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm not necessarily saying a non-interventionist deity exists in Christianity (although a strong support of God not intervening is done by deists), what I am saying though is that you can have one in mythology or modern religions.

God limits his interventionism throughout the Bible. Because God doesn't want to manipulate man, he gives man a choice, and in fact this is the case in the New Testament where God abolishes Jewish laws and theocracy for every man to be able to choose Jesus Christ as their savior and the son of God, which is precisely giving men the greatest liberty in regards of their salvation.

I gotcha. Please remember that this is strictly talking about the bible.
There are undoubtedly atheist that if they just lived in the next city over, they would be Christian and vice versa. Even the choice to accept is based mostly on ones surroundings. He created Native American Civilizations that wouldn't hear the name of Christ until thousands of years later. It was determined "in the beginning" that these people would be pretty much damned to hell the second they were born. Not because God decided where they were going regardless of their spiritual state. But because Got put them in a area isolated from the influence of the Christ.

That's not necessarily true. You are making a theological assertion which has no foundation biblically.

For most Christian theologians the question of whether or not the people who never heard of Jesus yet died are saved is a huge "we don't know", because the Bible and Jesus teachings applies to those who have heard and/or accept the gospel, not those who have never heard of it.

As such they are in a space where we do not know what's going to become of them, but Christians hope they are saved by the grace of God.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And because you posted, "And even then Job broke down and went into a huge rant (which is what composes most of his book) against his friends who tried to lead him astray, and even rebuked God once or twice with questions such as "why do you let me live like this?" and "for what purpose do you give men wealth, just so you can take it away?", for which God rebuked back something along the lines of "Why are you asking me these questions? I am your God, you don't question my will because you wouldn't be able to comprehend it to begin with, and if you did, you would understand why I do what I do to begin with." and Job felt embarrassed."

It kinda sounded like you were vouching for determinalism. You brought up that God basically said his will can't be defied. It's chill if you don't tho.

Not necessarily. Like I said, God can choose not to interfere in human will, and in fact it is the de facto Christian position to begin with, that God can interfere in human will given he is omnipotent, he just chooses not to.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

"If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist."
It was predictable by God. The bible says he's all knowing.

The problem is that all-knowing can mean he knows all the probabilities. That doesn't necessarily mean he knows a person will take one of them.

[Balican]

"If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist."
It was predictable by God. The bible says he's all knowing.

I was going to see if I could tie you up in your own words, but you saw through it... I can tell that isn't really making much progress as neither one of us is shifting much.
You want to keep going?

Edit: I thought you were someon else... Uhhg, I look like an idiot.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Actually, Job story in and of itself (the book, not just the first few chapters) are an example of a time when God thought wrong of a person.

God is made to sound in the story as someone who is naïve and looks at Job as the kindest, most good man on Earth. Job's failure in his philosophical rantings/musings was unpredictable even for God, and for Satan, who hoped Job would end up cursing God and turning away from Him.

At least, in context of the story.

If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist.

Exactly what I'm driving at.

God is all-knowing, which means he knows everything. However, God decided to not have any power over human will, therefore he just can hope humans take the path which will honor Him. Meaning that, while he can know all the outcomes in his head, he leaves the choice to humans to make a choice and all he can do is hope humans make the right choice, if any.

[Balican]

If it was unpredictable for God, how could he have predetermined that it was going to end like that? If God can't set everything up from a long time agao and doesn't possess people, than free will must exist.

Exactly what I'm driving at.

God is all-knowing, which means he knows everything. However, God decided to not have any power over human will, therefore he just can hope humans take the path which will honor Him. Meaning that, while he can know all the outcomes in his head, he leaves the choice to humans to make a choice and all he can do is hope humans make the right choice, if any.

You just described all of my ideas on the matter perfectly right there.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

1. So you're saying that if, theoretically, all would-be Islamic terrorist were raised in the bible belt instead of in the middle east, that his chances of meeting Jesus are the same?

2. "He will punish those who do not know God … They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." — 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

So actually, they're not saved.
3. I agree, Christians ought to hope that people are saved by the grace of God. However, we have to admit that there are some locations where meeting Jesus would be easier. Location can mean everything. And since God "knitted us in our mothers womb" (I think that's the verse) he determines our location. And he knows what will happen at those locations. Therefore, even our grace is determined before time started.