Christians: Does free will exist?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Say yes or no and then your justification. I'm SUPER curious what Christian NSG's are thinking about this. A couple good rules though:

1. This is a debate forum specifically about free will from a biblical context. So if someone says they do not believe in free will and they cite the bible for their reasoning, don't attack the existence of god. Attack their citations or call them out for citing out of context.
2. If you believe in free will, don't say something like, "Of course it exist! I picked what I had for breakfast!" You gotta have reason that the choice of what to eat for breakfast was truly only yours.
3. Whether you believe or not, arguments originating from the bible ought to come with the verse listed next to it.

Thanks!

[Lychgate]

In a biblical context? Sure. In PSR/Sunday School, they constantly drilled into us that humans were created with free will. In Genesis Chpt. 3, it is Eve's decision to listen to the serpent and take/eat the fruit and subsequently Adam's decision to eat it, too. Throughout the Bible, there are quite a few examples of humans making a choice without any other party trying to influence their decisions, so I would definitely say it exists. The discrepancy probably comes from the cases in which the exercising of free will is not entirely evident or does not exist in that one context.

[The Ben Boys]

Definitely. The entire point of the Tree of Knowledge was to give Adam and Eve a choice between following the order of things or to upset that order. Without that choice between following God and straying away then they would not have free will.

[The 502nd Ghost Division]

Disclaimer: I'm a Heathen

Yes and no, free will does exists but it's not absolute. Our past shapes the actions we can take in the present, as time goes on we get less and less free will.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Biblically? Yes.

It's much harder to justify determinism in a biblical context than free-will.

[Philjia]

If we assume that God is omniscient and the creator of all things, and that everything that happens is caused by something else, every event that has ever occurred or ever will occur predetermined by the creation of the universe by God. Thus, it follows that everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen, is what God intended to happen by the creation of the universe and whatever else he made outside it. In order for free will to exist, God would have to not be omniscient, or not the creator.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If we assume that God is omniscient and the creator of all things, and that everything that happens is caused by something else, every event that has ever occurred or ever will occur predetermined by the creation of the universe by God. Thus, it follows that everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen, is what God intended to happen by the creation of the universe and whatever else he made outside it. In order for free will to exist, God would have to not be omniscient, or not the creator.

Well, but then that does not follow from humanity's free will.

This is a rather unorthodox view of determinism even Calvinists would look at it with some skepticism, although their way isn't much better either.

[Galloism]

Definitely. The entire point of the Tree of Knowledge was to give Adam and Eve a choice between following the order of things or to upset that order. Without that choice between following God and straying away then they would not have free will.

That doesn't even make sense. If they didn't already have free will, then they couldn't have chosen the Tree of Knowledge.

Deciding to serve God does not mean giving up free will, in the same way that choosing to work for Wal-Mart doesn't surrender your free will.

[Silverakia]

Definitely. The entire point of the Tree of Knowledge was to give Adam and Eve a choice between following the order of things or to upset that order. Without that choice between following God and straying away then they would not have free will.

That doesn't even make sense. If they didn't already have free will, then they couldn't have chosen the Tree of Knowledge.

Deciding to serve God does not mean giving up free will, in the same way that choosing to work for Wal-Mart doesn't surrender your free will.

Um, actually, when you work for Walmart, you DO surrender your free will.

I don't like your comparison of God and Walmart, by the way.

[Galloism]

That doesn't even make sense. If they didn't already have free will, then they couldn't have chosen the Tree of Knowledge.

Deciding to serve God does not mean giving up free will, in the same way that choosing to work for Wal-Mart doesn't surrender your free will.

Um, actually, when you work for Walmart, you DO surrender your free will.

You do not. You acquiesce to do certain things their way according to their demands, but that doesn't mean giving up your free will.

You can continue to walk away at any time. As long as you have the ability to do so, you possess free will.

I don't like your comparison of God and Walmart, by the way.

Could have gone with McDonalds.

[Urran]

Biblically, yes it does.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That doesn't even make sense. If they didn't already have free will, then they couldn't have chosen the Tree of Knowledge.

Deciding to serve God does not mean giving up free will, in the same way that choosing to work for Wal-Mart doesn't surrender your free will.

Um, actually, when you work for Walmart, you DO surrender your free will.

I don't like your comparison of God and Walmart, by the way.

You really don't give up your free will when you work for Wal-Mart. You can always quit tomorrow.

With God, you can always choose to not acknowledge him in your life, even if you believe He exists.

[Galloism]

Um, actually, when you work for Walmart, you DO surrender your free will.

I don't like your comparison of God and Walmart, by the way.

You really don't give up your free will when you work for Wal-Mart. You can always quit tomorrow.

With God, you can always choose to not acknowledge him in your life, even if you believe He exists.

You don't even have to do that. You can flat out tell him to fuck off. That's your right.

[The Texan Union]

You really don't give up your free will when you work for Wal-Mart. You can always quit tomorrow.

With God, you can always choose to not acknowledge him in your life, even if you believe He exists.

You don't even have to do that. You can flat out tell him to fuck off. That's your right.

Exactly.

Nobody has to do anything. That doesn't mean that certain actions don't have consequences from God. Which one could argue is the equivalent of not having free will. I personally find the idea of being burned for eternity simply for banging a chick pre-marriage to be rather distasteful. But hey, what're'ya gonna do?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You don't even have to do that. You can flat out tell him to fuck off. That's your right.

Exactly.

Nobody has to do anything. That doesn't mean that certain actions don't have consequences from God. Which one could argue is the equivalent of not having free will. I personally find the idea of being burned for eternity simply for banging a chick pre-marriage to be rather distasteful. But hey, what're'ya gonna do?

I'd bang the chick pre-marriage anyways.

If I am going to hell just because of it I might as well enjoy myself as much as I can.

[Galloism]

You don't even have to do that. You can flat out tell him to fuck off. That's your right.

Exactly.

Nobody has to do anything. That doesn't mean that certain actions don't have consequences from God. Which one could argue is the equivalent of not having free will. I personally find the idea of being burned for eternity simply for banging a chick pre-marriage to be rather distasteful. But hey, what're'ya gonna do?

Well, if it helps, biblically, those who are dead cease to exist - not tortured forever in hellfire.

Hellfire as a concept was incorporated into Christianity somewhere around the tail end of the second century AD.

[Nordengrund]

I think both free will and determinism are compatible.

I won't try to reconcile the two because we are mortal, finite, and created beings, the product of an omnipotent God, so I think it is an exercise in futility to try to fully understand how both work and in what way free will and determinism relate to each other.

Our minds are so feeble and limited compared to the Creator of the universe. I also think it can border on blasphemy as since all such views end up stuffing God into a box. Either we limit God's sovereignty to make room for the libertarian free will of man, or say discredit free will by saying God has designed and ordained every meticulous design and event and end up making God the author of evil and ironically limit his sovereignty by saying that He can't be sovereign while we have libertarian free will or that he can't chose the elect conditionally.

[Major-Tom]

Unless you're a Calvinist who believes in predestination theology, I'd like to say that free will and belief aren't mutually exclusive. Biblical accounts aside, and this is purely from a philosophical standpoint, someone can believe in Christ and God and still believe that their lives aren't determined by fate or some benevolent hand, but by their own actions.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Have you ever heard of soft theological determinism?

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Determinism: no free will
Soft Theological variant: God indirectly determines our fate

The bible supports the following things:
God is all powerful
God is all knowing
God knows the future (When you combine all knowing and knows the future, it's reasonable to assume he knows all possible futures.)

And that's why free will is an illusion. Imagine there is a computer system. Within this system are programs. These programs have functions and can make choices. On the outside of the system is a man. If this man knows exactly what each program is going to decide, knows what's going to happen to the system(virus', errors, etc), knows all possible "end games", and knows the causes to each "end game", then the decisions made by the programs are not truly theirs. If the man didn't like the choice a program was gonna make, he'd make another program. All the decisions of the programs combined form the end game that the man wanted.

[Balican]

Perosnally, free will is very much a thing. If free will didn't exist, rather than God telling someone to do something he could have just made them do it. The best example was Abraham and the binding of Isaac. It was a test to determine weather Abraham would do everything God told him to. If he could just force people to do things then it wouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons it cited that demons were so terrible, because they could take over someone's body(removing their free will).

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Biblical example: Adam and Eve

God created Lucifer (or if Lucifer is eternal, God allowed him to exist)
God created Lucifer, knowing that if he praised him and gave him authority, he'd turn against him.
God gave him authority.
God allowed Lucifer to live after falling.
God allowed Lucifer into the garden.
God created man.
God gave a command that he knew mankind would ignore
God knew Satan would tempt Adam and Eve
God allowed Satan to tempt.
God knew in the beginning this would create sin.
God allowed the creation of sin.

Eden was the computer system. Adam, Even, and Satan were programs. God was the man who knew all possible outcomes and chose this one. Therefore, Adam, Eve, and Satan in the grand scheme of things didn't have a choice.

[Gages Icelandic Army]

Perosnally, free will is very much a thing. If free will didn't exist, rather than God telling someone to do something he could have just made them do it. The best example was Abraham and the binding of Isaac. It was a test to determine weather Abraham would do everything God told him to. If he could just force people to do things then it wouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons it cited that demons were so terrible, because they could take over someone's body(removing their free will).

But God set up Abraham's environment where he knew he would try to sacrifice him. In fact, the act of telling Abraham to do this, and knowing that he would obey, shows a lack of free will.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Biblical example: Adam and Eve

God created Lucifer (or if Lucifer is eternal, God allowed him to exist)
God created Lucifer, knowing that if he praised him and gave him authority, he'd turn against him.
God gave him authority.
God allowed Lucifer to live after falling.
God allowed Lucifer into the garden.
God created man.
God gave a command that he knew mankind would ignore
God knew Satan would tempt Adam and Eve
God allowed Satan to tempt.
God knew in the beginning this would create sin.
God allowed the creation of sin.

Eden was the computer system. Adam, Even, and Satan were programs. God was the man who knew all possible outcomes and chose this one. Therefore, Adam, Eve, and Satan in the grand scheme of things didn't have a choice.

Whoa whoa whoa. Be careful on your theological conclusions there.

If Adam, Eve, and Satan did not have a choice in the matter then why did God punish woman with birth pains and cursed the entire land because of the folly of man?

You're saying he allowed sin to happen, but for that to be true you also have to make a reasoning that absolves Adam and Eve from the punishment of their folly, given that God punished them, and you can't precisely go "well they shouldn't have and God was unjust" because for that to be true then you'd enter into another set of theological justifications to justify how God was unjust.

[Novsvacro]

No, except by God's grace.