[Abortion Megathread] Pro-Choice or Pro-Life? REVISED POLL

[Esternial]

Personally I don't find that the term "parasitic(-in-nature)" quite fits the subject, considering the properties often associated with the term. It's like a big lid that covers a little pot. Certainly covers the pot but isn't really supposed to be used for that pot.

Maybe you use it pragmatically, but it's easy to understand why others might take offence. In a debate it may be easier to just avoid using certain terms and describe the specifics than risk getting off on a tangent about how that particular term is not quite suitable for that particular subject - as is illustrated on this page.

Truth be told, I only use the phrase when somebody actually asks me whether I consider the fetus a parasite. Outside of that, I speak only in terms of raw facts. Sometimes my facts are incorrect, as you were so kind to indicate in your most gracious rebuttal of one of my prior points.

*cough*

But I consider this as much a learning experience as a discussion. I'll accept the occasional foot in my mouth. It helps me remember not to make the same mistake again.

I believe I've even supported the same assertion made by other posters in the past, because the advantage it lends to emburdening those negative connotations on the side of the pro-life supporters. It's not entirely wrong, but it's not quite right either. Purely for the purpose of "winning" a debate it's not an entirely poor approach.

I very much agree. Doubt I'd have bothered looking into it quite this much if not for this topic.

[Godular]

On another note, I can't help but notice that the poll option about being against abortion but considering a ban only as a last resort has zero votes. Is it a superfluous option?

[Wallenburg]

On another note, I can't help but notice that the poll option about being against abortion but considering a ban only as a last resort has zero votes. Is it a superfluous option?

I imagine it's because almost every pro-choice person considers the other pro-choice options more representative of their beliefs, and almost every anti-abortion person actually wants to ban abortions--whether partially or fully.

[Cerillium]

Good legwork, Esty!

A bit to add.

Parasite: covered it.
Parasitic: of or pertaining to a parasite; the trade of a parasite.

Parasitic relationship?: The relationship is not in any way considered a form of parasitism by science, nor is it parasitic in nature. It's also mislabeled as a 'symbiotic' relationship. It's not. As defined, symbiosis is "a close and often long-term interaction between two different biological species".

Yeah but...: The fetus and uterus engage in a mutually-interactive process involving chemicals exchanged between embryo/fetus and uterus for reproductive purposes in the same species. It's homospecific.

So if it's not symbiosis or parasitic, what is it? : It's 'placental'. "Placental mammals all bear live young, which are nourished before birth in the mother's uterus through a specialized embryonic organ attached to the uterus wall, the placenta." - lazy Berkeley sauce This mutual interaction continues until delivery. Exchange takes place. This exchange doesn't necessarily rob the mother of anything vital. Her body compensates if she's healthy. It's uncomfortable towards the end if she carries to term.

Yeah? Then why does she need prenatal vitamins?: "With the exception of recommending a folic acid–containing supplement to women of childbearing potential and advising avoidance the use of high-dose beta carotene supplements by smokers, current data are insufficient to formulate public health recommendations for dietary supplement use for otherwise healthy persons." - Journal of American Medicne. Blood test results will reveal any deficiencies.

But the fetus is a parasite/parasitic, damn it!: That means everyone reading this is likewise a parasite or uses parasitic means to reproduce. We don't. Gametes (sperm and egg) combine to form a zygote, an eukaryotic cell containing the DNA from each gamete. From this stage forward, unless the woman is serving as a surrogate for another woman, the rapidly dividing cells inside her contain one half the woman's DNA. 'Parasite' is used out of context to express the way we feel about something or someone. "My girlfriend is a total parasite. She's bankrupting me." Feelings do not make something accurate or right. Applying the term to define biochemical or other exchanges is a knee-jerk, sensationalized reaction.



I hope this helps shed a small amount of light on it. I'm not here to weigh in on pro-anything. Frankly I don't care what a woman does with her body, her embryo, her fetus, or her baby.

[Risottia]

But the fetus is a parasite/parasitic, damn it!: That means everyone reading this is likewise a parasite or uses parasitic means to reproduce. We don't.

All mammals use a form of parasitism to reproduce. A placental relationship is a form of parasitism, as per definition of parasitism.

[The V O I D]

I am not any less pro-choice than I was before. In fact, based on what I've read so far, all the same arguments on the pro-life end are already appearing... despite being addressed, disproven and discarded in the OP -- again.

[AiliailiA]

Shouldn't this be Abortion Megathread II ..?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Shouldn't this be Abortion Megathread II ..?

For some reason it's turned into the Parasite Megathread I.

[AiliailiA]

This is a continuation of the ongoing Abortion discussion, as the OP of the previous thread is inactive and I would like to establish a more precise poll to see where people stand on the issue. I would recommend that posters please read the entirety of this post before posting.

No. If the purpose of starting this thread is to "establish a more precise poll" then I immediately take issue with that poll.

1. I think that abortion is necessary to control the population.
2. It is her body, her choice.
3. I am personally against abortions, but respect the rights of others.
4. I am against abortion, and wish to reduce the number of abortions via certain reforms, but a ban would be a last resort.
5. I wish to ban certain procedures, but would keep it legal as a whole.
6. I wish to ban abortion, but enact several reforms to give women other options.
7. I believe that abortion is immoral, but necessary in certain cases.
8. I believe that abortion is immoral, and never justified.

There's only one option that is recognizably pro-choice (the second one).
There are six options which are flavors of pro-life.

As if the bias of your poll wasn't blatantly obvious just from that, the six pro-life options are all personal ("I am", "I wish to", "I believe") while the pro-choice option is impersonal ("her" not "my"). You legitimize every pro-life option as a valid opinion, while the pro-choice option is just a slogan divorced of any feeling.

Well I did read your OP, and as a pro-choice person I can certainly agree that prevention is better than cure (for unwanted pregnancy). But I don't believe your intention is to restart the debate in a fairer and more objective form than the previous megathread. Because that poll.

[Esternial]

But the fetus is a parasite/parasitic, damn it!: That means everyone reading this is likewise a parasite or uses parasitic means to reproduce. We don't.

All mammals use a form of parasitism to reproduce. A placental relationship is a form of parasitism, as per definition of parasitism.

I disagree. Defining the placental relationship as "a form of parasitism" is unnecessarily stretching the term.

In my eyes it's similar to defining a doplhin as a "kind of a fish" even though it's a mammal, simply because it kinda looks like one and lives in the sea. You wouldn't be totally wrong saying it kinda looks like a fish from the exterior and it certainly lives in the sea, but biologically/anatomically/phylogenetically it is not part of the same class of animal.

At most you can define it as "symbiotic", of which "parasitism" is a subset. The placenta allows two-way trafficing of metabolites and the mother's body (in most cases) voluntarily contributes to the formation of the placenta and accomodates the fetus. In parasites, nutrients are forcefully derived from the host by the parasite, which uses countermeasures to evade the host's defence mechanisms.

In fact, there is a hypothesis that suggests fetal stem cells pass to the mother during pregnancy and assist in cellular repair, acting in their capacity of stem cells.

The relationship between a fetus and its mother (or carrier, or whatever term you prefer) is - in my opinion - far too complex to simply be labeled as parasitic in nature. It's an oversimplification of a complex biological process that is distinct from the process that takes place between a parasite and its host. The fact that the womb has also evolved specifically to accomodate fetuses also contributes to my reasoning, as parasites typically make something their home rather than find themselves "welcomed in" by the host. Our body doesn't "willingly" accomodate parasites. They make it their home and makes sure they cannot be rejected.

Maybe some people kind of take this relationship for granted, considering it as little more than "fetus takes from mother". It's not false, but it's just very limited and ignores a bunch of unique properties that warrant the use of more specific terminology, in my eyes.

Shouldn't this be Abortion Megathread II ..?

Personally I find it a relevant tangent for this debate, and more interesting that the usual pro-choice/pro-life jazz we're used to.

Though if the Mods find it too off-topic, a seperate thread can always be launched.

[Godular]

This is a continuation of the ongoing Abortion discussion, as the OP of the previous thread is inactive and I would like to establish a more precise poll to see where people stand on the issue. I would recommend that posters please read the entirety of this post before posting.

No. If the purpose of starting this thread is to "establish a more precise poll" then I immediately take issue with that poll.

1. I think that abortion is necessary to control the population.
2. It is her body, her choice.
3. I am personally against abortions, but respect the rights of others.
4. I am against abortion, and wish to reduce the number of abortions via certain reforms, but a ban would be a last resort.
5. I wish to ban certain procedures, but would keep it legal as a whole.
6. I wish to ban abortion, but enact several reforms to give women other options.
7. I believe that abortion is immoral, but necessary in certain cases.
8. I believe that abortion is immoral, and never justified.

There's only one option that is recognizably pro-choice (the second one).
There are six options which are flavors of pro-life.

As if the bias of your poll wasn't blatantly obvious just from that, the six pro-life options are all personal ("I am", "I wish to", "I believe") while the pro-choice option is impersonal ("her" not "my"). You legitimize every pro-life option as a valid opinion, while the pro-choice option is just a slogan divorced of any feeling.

Well I did read your OP, and as a pro-choice person I can certainly agree that prevention is better than cure (for unwanted pregnancy). But I don't believe your intention is to restart the debate in a fairer and more objective form than the previous megathread. Because that poll.

Now that's just silly.

Option 1 would be described as pro-abortion.
Options 2-5 are all pro-choice, with varying degrees of personal misgivings about abortion but not seeking to actively limit access to it.
Options 6-8 are all pro-life in varying degrees.

If anything I slanted the poll slightly towards pro-choice based on the options, but the point was to get a precise reading of how people feel about it. Were I to just say 'pro-choice?' 'pro-life?', it would not be wholly representative.

[AiliailiA]

No. If the purpose of starting this thread is to "establish a more precise poll" then I immediately take issue with that poll.

1. I think that abortion is necessary to control the population.
2. It is her body, her choice.
3. I am personally against abortions, but respect the rights of others.
4. I am against abortion, and wish to reduce the number of abortions via certain reforms, but a ban would be a last resort.
5. I wish to ban certain procedures, but would keep it legal as a whole.
6. I wish to ban abortion, but enact several reforms to give women other options.
7. I believe that abortion is immoral, but necessary in certain cases.
8. I believe that abortion is immoral, and never justified.

There's only one option that is recognizably pro-choice (the second one).
There are six options which are flavors of pro-life.

As if the bias of your poll wasn't blatantly obvious just from that, the six pro-life options are all personal ("I am", "I wish to", "I believe") while the pro-choice option is impersonal ("her" not "my"). You legitimize every pro-life option as a valid opinion, while the pro-choice option is just a slogan divorced of any feeling.

Well I did read your OP, and as a pro-choice person I can certainly agree that prevention is better than cure (for unwanted pregnancy). But I don't believe your intention is to restart the debate in a fairer and more objective form than the previous megathread. Because that poll.

Now that's just silly.

Option 1 would be described as pro-abortion.
Options 2-5 are all pro-choice, with varying degrees of personal misgivings about abortion but not seeking to actively limit access to it.
Options 6-8 are all pro-life in varying degrees.

If anything I slanted the poll slightly towards pro-choice based on the options, but the point was to get a precise reading of how people feel about it. Were I to just say 'pro-choice?' 'pro-life?', it would not be wholly representative.

If you read my objections and considered them "silly" then frankly you are hopelessly mired in your own bias.

Options 2-5 all require the poll respondent to express personal misgiving about abortion. That's four options, twice as many as those you'd describe as "pro-abortion". And they're all personal!

I repeat my objection: options 3 to 8 are all couched in terms of "I think" or "I believe" which excuses them as being personal opinion. That is sympathetic treatment. Option 2 (the only strong pro-choice position) is impersonal. The wording is "her" not "I". You've presented the only strong pro-choice opinion as about some abstract other, as a principle not an opinion.

You want to get a precise reading of people who agree with you in some degree. While people like me who are pro-choice (or "pro-abortion" if you don't mind being called "pro-forced childbirth") get a slogan to chant, option 2, or some fascist crap about the needs of society being greater than individual rights, option 1.

If you really think that's a fair poll then your thinking is all twisted out of shape by your personal feelings. You're hysterical.

[Wallenburg]

If you read my objections and considered them "silly" then frankly you are hopelessly mired in your own bias.

Options 2-5 all require the poll respondent to express personal misgiving about abortion. That's four options, twice as many as those you'd describe as "pro-abortion". And they're all personal!

Since when did the phrase "it is her body, her choice" express "personal misgiving about abortion"?

I repeat my objection: options 3 to 8 are all couched in terms of "I think" or "I believe" which excuses them as being personal opinion. That is sympathetic treatment. Option 2 (the only strong pro-choice position) is impersonal. The wording is "her" not "I". You've presented the only strong pro-choice opinion as about some abstract other, as a principle not an opinion.

You could make just as convincing an argument that option 2 is portrayed as a far more valid choice, because it is structured as a factual statement, rather than a matter of opinion or belief. Option 2 is represented as a solid fact that has nothing to do with personal belief, whereas all the others are positions that do not necessarily reflect reality.

You want to get a precise reading of people who agree with you in some degree. While people like me who are pro-choice (or "pro-abortion" if you don't mind being called "pro-forced childbirth") get a slogan to chant, option 2, or some fascist crap about the needs of society being greater than individual rights, option 1.

I fail to see how the existing poll does not represent the poll participants. Is any pro-choice person really going to change their stance just because option 2 doesn't start with "I think that"?

If you really think that's a fair poll then your thinking is all twisted out of shape by your personal feelings. You're hysterical.

Are you trying to flamebait here?

[Big Jim P]

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

[Godular]

Now that's just silly.

Option 1 would be described as pro-abortion.
Options 2-5 are all pro-choice, with varying degrees of personal misgivings about abortion but not seeking to actively limit access to it.
Options 6-8 are all pro-life in varying degrees.

If anything I slanted the poll slightly towards pro-choice based on the options, but the point was to get a precise reading of how people feel about it. Were I to just say 'pro-choice?' 'pro-life?', it would not be wholly representative.

If you read my objections and considered them "silly" then frankly you are hopelessly mired in your own bias.

Options 2-5 all require the poll respondent to express personal misgiving about abortion. That's four options, twice as many as those you'd describe as "pro-abortion". And they're all personal!

I repeat my objection: options 3 to 8 are all couched in terms of "I think" or "I believe" which excuses them as being personal opinion. That is sympathetic treatment. Option 2 (the only strong pro-choice position) is impersonal. The wording is "her" not "I". You've presented the only strong pro-choice opinion as about some abstract other, as a principle not an opinion.

You want to get a precise reading of people who agree with you in some degree. While people like me who are pro-choice (or "pro-abortion" if you don't mind being called "pro-forced childbirth") get a slogan to chant, option 2, or some fascist crap about the needs of society being greater than individual rights, option 1.

If you really think that's a fair poll then your thinking is all twisted out of shape by your personal feelings. You're hysterical.

Frankly, if I'm getting complaints about a purported lack of impartiality from folks representing both sides of the argument I must be pretty damn middle of the road even with my own pro-choice position.

That being said, a person can be pro-choice and still be personally against abortions. That's just proof that they can separate their own opinion from those of others. A person can be pro-choice and want to reduce the number of abortions through certain reforms that don't limit access to abortion in themselves but reduce the burdens of unexpected pregnancy that might arise.

Besides: it is a poll asking for what statement the respondent most agrees with. It is SUPPOSED to be personal!

[Wallenburg]

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

[Kravanica]

Oh, another one of these. This should go well.

[The V O I D]

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

Pro-choice/anti-abortion means he thinks that women ought to have a choice to abort or not, but he wishes that they wouldn't choose abortion; nor does he think abortion is required to curb the population growth (such as the pro-abortion option in the poll suggests).

[The Alma Mater]

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

No it's not. When one believes people should be able to choose one can still have a preference for the choice they make.

[Wallenburg]

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

Pro-choice/anti-abortion means he thinks that women ought to have a choice to abort or not, but he wishes that they wouldn't choose abortion; nor does he think abortion is required to curb the population growth (such as the pro-abortion option in the poll suggests).

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

No it's not. When one believes people should be able to choose one can still have a preference for the choice they make.

"Anti-abortion" inherently refers to government policy, not personal preference. In any case, thank you for the clarification. That makes Jim plain pro-choice.

[Stellonia]

On another note, I can't help but notice that the poll option about being against abortion but considering a ban only as a last resort has zero votes. Is it a superfluous option?

I do believe in reducing the number of abortions through various reforms, but I don't see an abortion ban as a "last resort" in anyway, especially when the term is a bit ambiguous.

[Godular]

On another note, I can't help but notice that the poll option about being against abortion but considering a ban only as a last resort has zero votes. Is it a superfluous option?

I do believe in reducing the number of abortions through various reforms, but I don't see an abortion ban as a "last resort" in anyway, especially when the term is a bit ambiguous.

Why should it be your first?

There are other ways to reduce the number of abortions than an outright ban, and more effective besides.

[The V O I D]

On another note, I can't help but notice that the poll option about being against abortion but considering a ban only as a last resort has zero votes. Is it a superfluous option?

I do believe in reducing the number of abortions through various reforms, but I don't see an abortion ban as a "last resort" in anyway, especially when the term is a bit ambiguous.

Banning abortion won't ever work. You can't control women who want the choice, other than how safe an abortion that they get is.

How am I still repeating this? Is it really that hard to understand?

[Nariterrr]

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

No, anti-abortion means you religiously or personally or otherwise disagree with the idea of abortions, but you acknowledge that its the women's right to choose.

[Wallenburg]

What do you mean by that? Anti-abortion is exactly the opposite of pro-choice.

No, anti-abortion means you religiously or personally or otherwise disagree with the idea of abortions, but you acknowledge that its the women's right to choose.

See my previous post, as well as this.