UK Politics Thread V: Upon This Blasted Heath

[Vassenor]

So I provide an example of a person holding those views, and that means I think all people who voted Leave hold those views?

To me it was a hint to your attitude. I didn't feel the need to probe into it, unless you wish give a clarification into what your views are?

You mean aside from the feeling that the Leave campaign was built entirely on lies and spin, on telling people what they wanted to hear rather than what was actually going to happen, as evidenced by the fact that Boris and co are now desperately trying to force attention away from the promises they made or trying to make semantic arguments about how they're not really promises so they don't have to deliver on them?

I believe that views on immigration, regardless of motivation, were a contributing factor, but not the only factor. Not when you have outlets like the Express running with rampant scaremongering about just what the EU wants to do with your pension and crap like that.

[The Archregimancy]

The oomph has to be given time. No one expects a patient who's just come out of intensive care to start running marathons within the week.

Rebranding? I suppose that depends on what you mean by rebranding.

Make use of Farron's proven gangsta rap credentials and release a hard-hitting "Fuck tha Tories" campaign song.

[Court Officer: The Funky Ashdown]
Right about now, LiberalDem court is in full effect
Timmy F presiding
In the case of LiberalDem vs. the Tory Department
Prosecuting attorneys are MC Lamb, Ice Clegg
And Vincy-motherfucking-C

[The Judge: Timmy F]
Order, order, order
Ice Clegg, take the motherfucking stand
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
And nothing but the truth so help your orange ass?

[Witness: Ice Clegg]
You goddamn right!

[Timmy F]
Well won't you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say?

[Verse 1: Ice Clegg]
Fuck the Tories coming straight from the underground
A young LibDem got it bad cause I'm orange
And not the Tory blue so Tories think
They have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that shit, cause I ain't the one
For a punk motherfucker with a badge and a mace
To be beating on, and thrown in jail
We can go toe to toe in the middle of a cell
Fucking with me cause I'm a MPer
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searching my car, looking for the product
Thinking every LibDem is selling voting reform
You'd rather see, me in the pen
Than me and Lembit-o rolling in a Benz-o
Beat a Tory out of shape
And when I'm finished, bring the orange tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still getting swoll off bread and water
I don't know if they fags or what
Search a Tory down, and grab Boris' nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be an orange and a blue one
Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Orange police showing out for the blue cop
Ice Clegg will swarm
On any motherfucker in a blue uniform
Just cause I'm from Sheffield city
Punk Tories are afraid of me, huh
A young LibDem on the warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of Tories, dying in London
Yo Tim, I got something to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


[Scene 1]
[May] Pull your god damn ass over right now
[Lamb] Aww shit, now what the fuck you pullin' me over for?
[May] Cause I feel like it!
Just sit your ass on the curb and shut the fuck up
[Lmab] Man, fuck this shit
[May] Aight, smartass, I'm taking your orange ass to jail!

[Timmy F]
MC Lamb, will you please give your testimony
To the jury about this fucked up incident?

[Verse 2: MC Lamb]
Fuck the Tories and Lamb said it with authority
Because the LibDems on the street is a majority
A gang is with whoever I'm stepping
And the motherfucking weapon is kept in
A stash box, for the so-called law
Wishing Lamb was a LibDem that they never saw
Lights start flashing behind me
But they're scared of a LibDem so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don't work, I just laugh
Because it gives them a hint not to step in my path
For Tories, I'm saying, "Fuck you punk!"
Reading my rights and shit, it's all junk
Pulling out a silly club, so you stand
With a fake-ass parliamentary mace in your hand
But take off the mace so you can see what's up
And we'll go at it punk, and I'ma fuck you up!
Make you think I'mma kick your ass
But drop your gat, and Lamb's gonna blast
I'm sneaky as fuck when it comes to crime
But I'ma smoke them now and not next time
Smoke any motherfucker that sweats me
Or any asshole that threatens me
I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope
Taking out a Tory or two, they can't cope with me
The motherfucking villain that's mad
With potential, to get bad as fuck
So I'ma turn it around
Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound

{*BOOM, BOOM*}

Yeah, something like that
But it all depends on the size of the gat
Taking out a Tory would make my day
But a LibDem like Lamb don't give a fuck to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


(etc., etc., etc.)

[Wolfmanne2]

To me it was a hint to your attitude. I didn't feel the need to probe into it, unless you wish give a clarification into what your views are?

You mean aside from the feeling that the Leave campaign was built entirely on lies and spin, on telling people what they wanted to hear rather than what was actually going to happen, as evidenced by the fact that Boris and co are now desperately trying to force attention away from the promises they made or trying to make semantic arguments about how they're not really promises so they don't have to deliver on them?

The Leave campaign was built on lies and spins, but even as that has been revealed there hasn't been a grand change in public opinion on Brexit. You still haven't answered my question: what are your views?

[The Nihilistic view]

Do you?

I'll get to it in a minute, right now I'm too busy being in shock at seeing two words from you that are your own work.

LMAO.

[Wolfmanne2]

To me it was a hint to your attitude. I didn't feel the need to probe into it, unless you wish give a clarification into what your views are?

I believe that views on immigration, regardless of motivation, were a contributing factor, but not the only factor. Not when you have outlets like the Express running with rampant scaremongering about just what the EU wants to do with your pension and crap like that.

And what was the root cause of that concern on immigration?

[Vassenor]

I believe that views on immigration, regardless of motivation, were a contributing factor, but not the only factor. Not when you have outlets like the Express running with rampant scaremongering about just what the EU wants to do with your pension and crap like that.

And what was the root cause of that concern on immigration?

I do not have enough information to form an opinion on that matter.

I am sorry if this is not me saying precisely what you want to hear.

[Wolfmanne2]

And what was the root cause of that concern on immigration?

I do not have enough information to form an opinion on that matter.

I am sorry if this is not me saying precisely what you want to hear.

No offence intended, but that sounds like you're hoping that there is a penny in the air that reveals that the concerns on immigration are fundamentally and objectively wrong, no matter what. Surely we should be listening to the British people, understanding why they voted the way we and we as leftists of various stripes should shape our views based on that - though with a left-wing slant (my belief is that we should focus on the impact to low-income families, on wage depression, on the housing market etc)?

[The Archregimancy]

There's a bit of a misunderstanding / exaggeration on this one.

During - more accurately, immediately before - the contest to replace Nick Clegg as party leader, Farron gave an interview on BBC radio where he referred to the party several times as 'the Liberals'.

This was seized on by the Telegraph as suggesting that he was considering changing the name of the party - despite the Telegraph itself noting how difficult this would be.

Farron was very quick to rubbish this story within internal party circles and elsewhere. But it's since taken on the status of a urban myth that people genuinely believe regardless of any number of subsequent clarifications.

Everyone still calls The Conservatives "Tories" even though the Tories disbanded in 1834.

That's not quite what happened.

The term 'Tory' was gradually replaced by 'Conservative' following Peel's Tamworth Manifesto of 1834. Simplifying somewhat, Peel was trying to draw a distinction between the 'old' Tories and his own parliamentary group, notably via his acceptance of the Great Reform Act of 1832. But there was no formal 'disbanding' of the previous political party (largely because political groups were fairly fluid prior to the 1850s); it was more of a rebranding exercise of an existing political group that wouldn't reach its modern form until after the Peelite split in the wake of the Corn Laws controversy.

[Vassenor]

In other news...

Labour leadership: Watson urges changes to election rules

I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to accomplish here. I mean on the one hand it does make sense to try to limit voting to registered members of the party, but surely if you wanted to go down that road it would require removing the trade unions from the roll as well, which kind of seems antithetical to the party's image as the one that supports the workers.

Of course the other argument is that this is an attempt to consolidate power in the hands of the party establishment at the expense of the voterbase.

As it is I kind of have no idea where to stand on the matter, but then I'm not a member of the party so it's kind of irrelevant.

[Wolfmanne2]

Everyone still calls The Conservatives "Tories" even though the Tories disbanded in 1834.

That's not quite what happened.

The term 'Tory' was gradually replaced by 'Conservative' following Peel's Tamworth Manifesto of 1834. Simplifying somewhat, Peel was trying to draw a distinction between the 'old' Tories and his own parliamentary group, notably via his acceptance of the Great Reform Act of 1832. But there was no formal 'disbanding' of the previous political party (largely because political groups were fairly fluid prior to the 1850s); it was more of a rebranding exercise of an existing political group that wouldn't reach its modern form until after the Peelite split in the wake of the Corn Laws controversy.

Are Edmund Burke's Whigs an ancestor of the Tory grouping that became the Conservative Party.

In other news...

Labour leadership: Watson urges changes to election rules

I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to accomplish here. I mean on the one hand it does make sense to try to limit voting to registered members of the party, but surely if you wanted to go down that road it would require removing the trade unions from the roll as well, which kind of seems antithetical to the party's image as the one that supports the workers.

Of course the other argument is that this is an attempt to consolidate power in the hands of the party establishment at the expense of the voterbase.

As it is I kind of have no idea where to stand on the matter, but then I'm not a member of the party so it's kind of irrelevant.

Speaking as a party member, I don't see how it is fair that people who do not come on campaigns or have been members long enough to have been involved in the general debate of the direction of the party.

Registered members aren't the be all that ends all; it is important too that trade union members have a voice on the direction of the party that represents them. Once upon a time the bloc vote of trade unions was 10% more then members and MPs (30% each), which indicates how important trade union representation was (and should be) to the party.

Registered supporters meanwhile... members spend a great deal of time fighting to get Labour elected, trade union members need a voice to ensure the Labour Party remains representative of their interests (and trade unions heavily fund the Labour Party for this purpose, so it's fair) - I don't see a compelling reason why people should be allowed to pay a bit of money for a privilege that Labour members earn by getting stuck into party politics. Their vote decides how we will be governed, but they themselves aren't affected by it.

[Vassenor]

I do not have enough information to form an opinion on that matter.

I am sorry if this is not me saying precisely what you want to hear.

No offence intended, but that sounds like you're hoping that there is a penny in the air that reveals that the concerns on immigration are fundamentally and objectively wrong, no matter what. Surely we should be listening to the British people, understanding why they voted the way we and we as leftists of various stripes should shape our views based on that - though with a left-wing slant (my belief is that we should focus on the impact to low-income families, on wage depression, on the housing market etc)?

Yes, and annoyingly every time people try to address the immigration issue from the standpoint of its actual effects there's always going to be groups like UKIP or the BNP before them who try to hijack the debate to make a racial point where it is neither warranted, representative or even factual, and then everyone else just gives up and goes home without anything being done.

[Great Nepal]

How else do you account for the fact that regions with highest level of support for Brexit (mainly driven by immigration concerns) have lowest migrant population, and vice versa?

Gee. Maybe the people who don't like high migration move out of the area or become disaffected with politics and don't vote.

Yeah I don't think swathes of people are leaving their nice jobs in London to move to Midlands because of immigrants, and given turnout everywhere was quite high no.

How else do you account for the fact that regions with highest level of support for Brexit (mainly driven by immigration concerns) have lowest migrant population, and vice versa?

That doesn't take into account areas such as Boston, Stoke-on-Trent, Peterborough etc which have high rates of migration and voted for Brexit. But the contradiction to be found in areas that lack immigration and voted for Brexit has always amused me.

Minor exceptions to general trends are called anomalies; they don't diminish underlying trend.

[The Nihilistic view]

How else do you account for the fact that regions with highest level of support for Brexit (mainly driven by immigration concerns) have lowest migrant population, and vice versa?

That doesn't take into account areas such as Boston, Stoke-on-Trent, Peterborough etc which have high rates of migration and voted for Brexit. But the contradiction to be found in areas that lack immigration and voted for Brexit has always amused me.

I would have thought that fairly obvious based on a few reasons. Those areas are full of people pushed our from where they were before. London in the case of areas like Clacton. They don't enjoy this for a start. Secondly they and the people already there rather like English things and want to live in a place that is English mostly when it comes to shops, community activities etc. It's about ways of life and preserving a place they would rather live in as it is.

The final reason is entirely more practical if an area is 55% not British you won't get an overall majority for Brexit showing up based on immigration reasons. Out of the 45% of British people are still a majorites for Brexit within themselves. I don't think the proportion of British people at least in England and Wales backing Brexit changes that much across the country. What changes is the proportion of the electorate the demographic makes up.

[Ifreann]

Make use of Farron's proven gangsta rap credentials and release a hard-hitting "Fuck tha Tories" campaign song.

[Court Officer: The Funky Ashdown]
Right about now, LiberalDem court is in full effect
Timmy F presiding
In the case of LiberalDem vs. the Tory Department
Prosecuting attorneys are MC Lamb, Ice Clegg
And Vincy-motherfucking-C

[The Judge: Timmy F]
Order, order, order
Ice Clegg, take the motherfucking stand
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
And nothing but the truth so help your orange ass?

[Witness: Ice Clegg]
You goddamn right!

[Timmy F]
Well won't you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say?

[Verse 1: Ice Clegg]
Fuck the Tories coming straight from the underground
A young LibDem got it bad cause I'm orange
And not the Tory blue so Tories think
They have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that shit, cause I ain't the one
For a punk motherfucker with a badge and a mace
To be beating on, and thrown in jail
We can go toe to toe in the middle of a cell
Fucking with me cause I'm a MPer
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searching my car, looking for the product
Thinking every LibDem is selling voting reform
You'd rather see, me in the pen
Than me and Lembit-o rolling in a Benz-o
Beat a Tory out of shape
And when I'm finished, bring the orange tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still getting swoll off bread and water
I don't know if they fags or what
Search a Tory down, and grab Boris' nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be an orange and a blue one
Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Orange police showing out for the blue cop
Ice Clegg will swarm
On any motherfucker in a blue uniform
Just cause I'm from Sheffield city
Punk Tories are afraid of me, huh
A young LibDem on the warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of Tories, dying in London
Yo Tim, I got something to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


[Scene 1]
[May] Pull your god damn ass over right now
[Lamb] Aww shit, now what the fuck you pullin' me over for?
[May] Cause I feel like it!
Just sit your ass on the curb and shut the fuck up
[Lmab] Man, fuck this shit
[May] Aight, smartass, I'm taking your orange ass to jail!

[Timmy F]
MC Lamb, will you please give your testimony
To the jury about this fucked up incident?

[Verse 2: MC Lamb]
Fuck the Tories and Lamb said it with authority
Because the LibDems on the street is a majority
A gang is with whoever I'm stepping
And the motherfucking weapon is kept in
A stash box, for the so-called law
Wishing Lamb was a LibDem that they never saw
Lights start flashing behind me
But they're scared of a LibDem so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don't work, I just laugh
Because it gives them a hint not to step in my path
For Tories, I'm saying, "Fuck you punk!"
Reading my rights and shit, it's all junk
Pulling out a silly club, so you stand
With a fake-ass parliamentary mace in your hand
But take off the mace so you can see what's up
And we'll go at it punk, and I'ma fuck you up!
Make you think I'mma kick your ass
But drop your gat, and Lamb's gonna blast
I'm sneaky as fuck when it comes to crime
But I'ma smoke them now and not next time
Smoke any motherfucker that sweats me
Or any asshole that threatens me
I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope
Taking out a Tory or two, they can't cope with me
The motherfucking villain that's mad
With potential, to get bad as fuck
So I'ma turn it around
Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound

{*BOOM, BOOM*}

Yeah, something like that
But it all depends on the size of the gat
Taking out a police would make my day
But a LibDem like Lamb don't give a fuck to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


(etc., etc., etc.)

I don't see how you could possibly not come out of the election with a majority after that.

[Vassenor]

I'm also trying to get my head around the idea that Labour is going on the election path now, based on nothing more than a rumour that May might try to push an early GE through parliament sometime next year.

I mean I get that the party needs to try and turn itself around and present itself as being electable, but I don't think chasing ghosts is the way to do it.

[Wolfmanne2]

I'm also trying to get my head around the idea that Labour is going on the election path now, based on nothing more than a rumour that May might try to push an early GE through parliament sometime next year.

I mean I get that the party needs to try and turn itself around and present itself as being electable, but I don't think chasing ghosts is the way to do it.

We unite behind Corbyn. There's no other way to it. But Corbyn has to be willing to extend an olive branch. If we believe the myth long enough, it'll help.

[Vassenor]

I'm also trying to get my head around the idea that Labour is going on the election path now, based on nothing more than a rumour that May might try to push an early GE through parliament sometime next year.

I mean I get that the party needs to try and turn itself around and present itself as being electable, but I don't think chasing ghosts is the way to do it.

We unite behind Corbyn. There's no other way to it. But Corbyn has to be willing to extend an olive branch.

Do you have any suggestions for concessions that could be made to try and bring voters back into the fold?

[Tananat]

I'm also trying to get my head around the idea that Labour is going on the election path now, based on nothing more than a rumour that May might try to push an early GE through parliament sometime next year.

I mean I get that the party needs to try and turn itself around and present itself as being electable, but I don't think chasing ghosts is the way to do it.

We unite behind Corbyn.

And lose the election.

[Wolfmanne2]

We unite behind Corbyn.

And lose the election.

That is Corbyn's responsibility in such a situation. What I would say to that is that the rest of us united behind him and he still lost.

[Shamhnan Insir]

[Court Officer: The Funky Ashdown]
Right about now, LiberalDem court is in full effect
Timmy F presiding
In the case of LiberalDem vs. the Tory Department
Prosecuting attorneys are MC Lamb, Ice Clegg
And Vincy-motherfucking-C

[The Judge: Timmy F]
Order, order, order
Ice Clegg, take the motherfucking stand
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
And nothing but the truth so help your orange ass?

[Witness: Ice Clegg]
You goddamn right!

[Timmy F]
Well won't you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say?

[Verse 1: Ice Clegg]
Fuck the Tories coming straight from the underground
A young LibDem got it bad cause I'm orange
And not the Tory blue so Tories think
They have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that shit, cause I ain't the one
For a punk motherfucker with a badge and a mace
To be beating on, and thrown in jail
We can go toe to toe in the middle of a cell
Fucking with me cause I'm a MPer
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searching my car, looking for the product
Thinking every LibDem is selling voting reform
You'd rather see, me in the pen
Than me and Lembit-o rolling in a Benz-o
Beat a Tory out of shape
And when I'm finished, bring the orange tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still getting swoll off bread and water
I don't know if they fags or what
Search a Tory down, and grab Boris' nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be an orange and a blue one
Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Orange police showing out for the blue cop
Ice Clegg will swarm
On any motherfucker in a blue uniform
Just cause I'm from Sheffield city
Punk Tories are afraid of me, huh
A young LibDem on the warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of Tories, dying in London
Yo Tim, I got something to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


[Scene 1]
[May] Pull your god damn ass over right now
[Lamb] Aww shit, now what the fuck you pullin' me over for?
[May] Cause I feel like it!
Just sit your ass on the curb and shut the fuck up
[Lmab] Man, fuck this shit
[May] Aight, smartass, I'm taking your orange ass to jail!

[Timmy F]
MC Lamb, will you please give your testimony
To the jury about this fucked up incident?

[Verse 2: MC Lamb]
Fuck the Tories and Lamb said it with authority
Because the LibDems on the street is a majority
A gang is with whoever I'm stepping
And the motherfucking weapon is kept in
A stash box, for the so-called law
Wishing Lamb was a LibDem that they never saw
Lights start flashing behind me
But they're scared of a LibDem so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don't work, I just laugh
Because it gives them a hint not to step in my path
For Tories, I'm saying, "Fuck you punk!"
Reading my rights and shit, it's all junk
Pulling out a silly club, so you stand
With a fake-ass parliamentary mace in your hand
But take off the mace so you can see what's up
And we'll go at it punk, and I'ma fuck you up!
Make you think I'mma kick your ass
But drop your gat, and Lamb's gonna blast
I'm sneaky as fuck when it comes to crime
But I'ma smoke them now and not next time
Smoke any motherfucker that sweats me
Or any asshole that threatens me
I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope
Taking out a Tory or two, they can't cope with me
The motherfucking villain that's mad
With potential, to get bad as fuck
So I'ma turn it around
Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound

{*BOOM, BOOM*}

Yeah, something like that
But it all depends on the size of the gat
Taking out a police would make my day
But a LibDem like Lamb don't give a fuck to say

[Chorus]
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories
Fuck Tha Tories


(etc., etc., etc.)

I don't see how you could possibly not come out of the election with a majority after that.

Biggest political landslide in history.

[Vassenor]

We unite behind Corbyn.

And lose the election.

Which I suppose is interesting considering Labour just sacrificed its majority on Bristol City Council in order to purge Corbyn-supporting members from their seats.

[Tananat]

And lose the election.

Which I suppose is interesting considering Labour just sacrificed its majority on Bristol City Council in order to purge Corbyn-supporting members from their seats.

Good. Purging the Party of the new Militant is something we need to do to avoid being destroyed.

[Frank Zipper]

For me Timmy still just ain't tha 1.

[Vassenor]

Which I suppose is interesting considering Labour just sacrificed its majority on Bristol City Council in order to purge Corbyn-supporting members from their seats.

Good. Purging the Party of the new Militant is something we need to do to avoid being destroyed.

In what way are they militant?

Or is this some assumption that anyone who supports him in any way must also be Momentum?

[Tananat]

Good. Purging the Party of the new Militant is something we need to do to avoid being destroyed.

In what way are they militant?

Or is this some assumption that anyone who supports him in any way must also be Momentum?

Militant was Momentum in the 70s and 80s and almost destroyed the party.