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UK Politics Thread V: Upon This Blasted Heath

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which of the following do you want to keep post-Brexit

Freedom of Movement
31
13%
Single Market Access
62
25%
Both of the Above
102
41%
Neither of the Above
53
21%
 
Total votes : 248

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:33 am



Primarily the US election thread, I would think.

It involves a UK-based media outlet, but the implications are primarily associated with the US election - though I imagine some associated discussion of UK libel laws would be relevant here.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:37 am

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Rufford
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Postby Rufford » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:38 am

I'm surprised, Arch, that they didn't call it the "Wallace Bridge", as was suggested. That would have suited the SNP a lot better.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:48 am

Do Pales count as (historical) counties?

If so, put me down for Calais :p
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:52 am

Rufford wrote:I'm surprised, Arch, that they didn't call it the "Wallace Bridge", as was suggested. That would have suited the SNP a lot better.


Don't get me started on William Wallace.

However, it would be legitimate to point out that Wallace is better known for his association with a bridge in Stirling, and the Wallace Monument is likewise in Stirling (overlooking Old Stirling Bridge) - not Clackmannashire or Fife.

And whatever I might think about Alex Salmond's politics, his claim to be 'pro-English' might have taken a battering if he had named a bridge after a Scotsman whose greatest military achievement involved slaughtering 5000 Englishmen on a bridge across the Forth and then turning the cured skin of the defeated general into a shoulder strap for his sword (funny how Mel Gibson chose to leave that last detail out). Though Salmond was (is still?) quite keen on Braveheart, that might have seemed needlessly provocative. He's too canny a politician to have allowed that.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:07 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:Do Pales count as (historical) counties?


An interesting historical question. The issue of what constitutes a 'county' (an unfortunate typo had me initially type that without the 'o') is far less clear-cut in UK usage than it might seem. Scotland, Wales, England, and all parts of Ireland have 'traditional counties' which are generally clearly understood, but A) even the traditional counties were more malleable than people often appreciate and B) various government reforms since the Second World War have both weakened the traditional counties and changed our understanding of what a county is. For example, are the unitary authorities of Stoke and Portsmouth 'counties', or are they simply cities with county-level powers? If the latter, then how to approach the Soke of Peterborough, the Isle of Ely, or the 1889-1965 County of London?

However, the Pale of Calais was never governed or defined as a county, but was rather (oversimplifying) headed by a military commander with special plenary powers. As such, no, I don't think it counts as a county.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:24 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:Do Pales count as (historical) counties?


An interesting historical question. The issue of what constitutes a 'county' (an unfortunate typo had me initially type that without the 'o') is far less clear-cut in UK usage than it might seem. Scotland, Wales, England, and all parts of Ireland have 'traditional counties' which are generally clearly understood, but A) even the traditional counties were more malleable than people often appreciate and B) various government reforms since the Second World War have both weakened the traditional counties and changed our understanding of what a county is. For example, are the unitary authorities of Stoke and Portsmouth 'counties', or are they simply cities with county-level powers? If the latter, then how to approach the Soke of Peterborough, the Isle of Ely, or the 1889-1965 County of London?

However, the Pale of Calais was never governed or defined as a county, but was rather (oversimplifying) headed by a military commander with special plenary powers. As such, no, I don't think it counts as a county.


Too bad.

What about former colonies? Specifically, New York City (or whatever the governmental division was at that time)? :unsure:
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:35 am

Ooh, new thread.

Greater Manchester represent. Us newer counties deserve some love as well.
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:36 am

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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:45 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
An interesting historical question. The issue of what constitutes a 'county' (an unfortunate typo had me initially type that without the 'o') is far less clear-cut in UK usage than it might seem. Scotland, Wales, England, and all parts of Ireland have 'traditional counties' which are generally clearly understood, but A) even the traditional counties were more malleable than people often appreciate and B) various government reforms since the Second World War have both weakened the traditional counties and changed our understanding of what a county is. For example, are the unitary authorities of Stoke and Portsmouth 'counties', or are they simply cities with county-level powers? If the latter, then how to approach the Soke of Peterborough, the Isle of Ely, or the 1889-1965 County of London?

However, the Pale of Calais was never governed or defined as a county, but was rather (oversimplifying) headed by a military commander with special plenary powers. As such, no, I don't think it counts as a county.


Too bad.

What about former colonies? Specifically, New York City (or whatever the governmental division was at that time)? :unsure:


Confusingly, the Five Boroughs of New York City are also full counties of New York State in their own right. Furthermore, four of those Boroughs - Manhattan (New York County), Queens (Queens County), Staten Island (Richmond County), and Brooklyn (Kings County) - formed part of the original 12 counties of New York as established in 1683.

However, if the question is 'did the 13 colonies have counties formed by the British and local colonial governments prior to 1776', then the answer is yes. If you then want to argue that these can therefore be considered 'historical counties' of the United Kingdom (more accurately the Kingdom of Great Britain since we're pre-1801), then you're free to make that case.

If so, you would perhaps be looking to focus on New York County (Manhattan). If this argument is accepted - and I'm inclined to define the question as referring to the current territory of England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland - then I might instead choose St Mary's County, Maryland (founded 1637).
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Elepis
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Postby Elepis » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:47 am

Alvecia wrote:Ooh, new thread.

Greater Manchester represent. Us newer counties deserve some love as well.


Mersyside, we have Liverpool
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Not sure that'll work on Elepis considering he dislikes (from what I've observed):
A: Nationalism
B: Religion being taken seriously
C: The Irish"

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:47 am

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:47 am

Anywhere Else But Here wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Also lets get some dangerous socialism going in this thread.

I once walked past a homeless person and didn't tell them they were scum. I've heard that counts.


I once bought a coffee for a homeless person, I had to go to a correctional facility for 3 months after to wash the socialist attitude out of my system.
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Postby Elepis » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:52 am



well I was a very immobile child but I still did well in school :p

Its the G20 soon isn't it, wonder how May will do in that now she has (very probably) pissed of the Chinese, which is not really a good idea in world politics or economics.
"Krugmar - Today at 10:00 PM
Not sure that'll work on Elepis considering he dislikes (from what I've observed):
A: Nationalism
B: Religion being taken seriously
C: The Irish"

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:53 am

Elepis wrote:


well I was a very immobile child but I still did well in school :p

Its the G20 soon isn't it, wonder how May will do in that now she has (very probably) pissed of the Chinese, which is not really a good idea in world politics or economics.


It's this weekend.
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:55 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:I once walked past a homeless person and didn't tell them they were scum. I've heard that counts.


I once bought a coffee for a homeless person, I had to go to a correctional facility for 3 months after to wash the socialist attitude out of my system.


25 years ago, while driving through what's now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, small children would almost always shout 'donnez-moi une bic' ('give me a pen') at us whenever we passed through a village. No doubt they were hoping that we would help allay the costs of their education by supplying them with hard to acquire writing materials.

After 3 weeks of this, somewhere between Bumba and Lisala (I think), I cracked.

The next village we drove through, when the cute and poverty-stricked mud village-dwelling children from a country wracked with corruption and failing infrastructure called out to us, I simply dangled a pen out of the window as we passed through.

The next day, I signed up for membership of the British Fascist Union.*


*This last sentence may not be true. To my regret and shame, the rest of the post is entirely true.

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Rufford
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Postby Rufford » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:56 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Too bad.

What about former colonies? Specifically, New York City (or whatever the governmental division was at that time)? :unsure:


Confusingly, the Five Boroughs of New York City are also full counties of New York State in their own right. Furthermore, four of those Boroughs - Manhattan (New York County), Queens (Queens County), Staten Island (Richmond County), and Brooklyn (Kings County) - formed part of the original 12 counties of New York as established in 1683.

However, if the question is 'did the 13 colonies have counties formed by the British and local colonial governments prior to 1776', then the answer is yes. If you then want to argue that these can therefore be considered 'historical counties' of the United Kingdom (more accurately the Kingdom of Great Britain since we're pre-1801), then you're free to make that case.

If so, you would perhaps be looking to focus on New York County (Manhattan). If this argument is accepted - and I'm inclined to define the question as referring to the current territory of England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland - then I might instead choose St Mary's County, Maryland (founded 1637).

If you counted places that have been part of Britain in history, then it would have to be the Himalayan part of India.
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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:57 am

The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:58 am

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Valaran
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Postby Valaran » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:00 am

Elepis wrote:
Its the G20 soon isn't it, wonder how May will do in that now she has (very probably) pissed of the Chinese, which is not really a good idea in world politics or economics.


She'll smooth things over. The Chinese are cautious about a post-Brexit UK, but not yet deterred. Besides, the main focus will be on China's economic policies/plans, and some vaguer stuff on cooperation over taxation and against protectionism. The Summit is something of a vehicle for China to assert its relevance in global affairs, and it would be harming that by attacking nations it normally gets on ok with.
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:04 am

Rufford wrote:If you counted places that have been part of Britain in history, then it would have to be the Himalayan part of India.


Ah, no - the metric would be locations that had a county form of local government prior to achieving independence. British India's administration evolved over time, but it was based on provinces, divisions, districts, and princely states, not counties. The districts were likely the closest equivalent to counties, but weren't wholly equivalent.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Elepis
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Postby Elepis » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:16 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
I once bought a coffee for a homeless person, I had to go to a correctional facility for 3 months after to wash the socialist attitude out of my system.


25 years ago, while driving through what's now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, small children would almost always shout 'donnez-moi une bic' ('give me a pen') at us whenever we passed through a village. No doubt they were hoping that we would help allay the costs of their education by supplying them with hard to acquire writing materials.

After 3 weeks of this, somewhere between Bumba and Lisala (I think), I cracked.

The next village we drove through, when the cute and poverty-stricked mud village-dwelling children from a country wracked with corruption and failing infrastructure called out to us, I simply dangled a pen out of the window as we passed through.

The next day, I signed up for membership of the British Fascist Union.*


*This last sentence may not be true. To my regret and shame, the rest of the post is entirely true.


why were you in the Congo (or Zaire as I guess it was) out of curiosity?

Vassenor wrote:
Elepis wrote:
well I was a very immobile child but I still did well in school :p

Its the G20 soon isn't it, wonder how May will do in that now she has (very probably) pissed of the Chinese, which is not really a good idea in world politics or economics.


It's this weekend.


It will be interesting to see how she gets on with Xi, Putin, Merkel et al
"Krugmar - Today at 10:00 PM
Not sure that'll work on Elepis considering he dislikes (from what I've observed):
A: Nationalism
B: Religion being taken seriously
C: The Irish"

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Valystria
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Founded: Jul 29, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Valystria » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:51 am

Val Halla wrote:
Olivaero wrote:Politicians jobs are required. Even an anarchy would require some form of governance some one to articulate the discourse and even embrace a leadership position when required and when agreed upon. Its just our system of government is poorly put together to select for honesty.

Most politicians do fuck all.

That really isn't true at all. Being a member of parliament, for example, is time intensive to the extent of destabilizing marriages and family relations. Being an elected representive or leader of a country is often extremely stressful, and it's well known excessive and prolonged stress takes a physical toll.

Image


Image


Image


It's a very demanding and often around-the-clock job, constantly being under high pressure and intense scrutiny, being hated by half the country on a good day. It's not fair to politicians to claim they sit around all day doing nothing when that clearly isn't the case.

And on behalf of myself congratulations to me on now having a reason to post in the UK thread due to residence. I also give props to the Daily Mail on educating and informing me on the complex intricacies of British politics, and I highly recommend the DM to anyone new to Britain for getting up to speed.
Last edited by Valystria on Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:52 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Too bad.

What about former colonies? Specifically, New York City (or whatever the governmental division was at that time)? :unsure:


Confusingly, the Five Boroughs of New York City are also full counties of New York State in their own right. Furthermore, four of those Boroughs - Manhattan (New York County), Queens (Queens County), Staten Island (Richmond County), and Brooklyn (Kings County) - formed part of the original 12 counties of New York as established in 1683.

However, if the question is 'did the 13 colonies have counties formed by the British and local colonial governments prior to 1776', then the answer is yes. If you then want to argue that these can therefore be considered 'historical counties' of the United Kingdom (more accurately the Kingdom of Great Britain since we're pre-1801), then you're free to make that case.

If so, you would perhaps be looking to focus on New York County (Manhattan). If this argument is accepted - and I'm inclined to define the question as referring to the current territory of England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland - then I might instead choose St Mary's County, Maryland (founded 1637).


Given that the 13 colonies got their independence from GB, I'd argue that prior to their independence they were a part of it.

I hereby pick Manhattan / New York County as my favourite. Though Brooklyn, given that I live within 10 km of the original Breukelen after which it is named, is a close second.
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Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:53 am

Valystria wrote:And on behalf of myself congratulations to me on now having a reason to post in the UK thread due to residence. I also give props to the Daily Mail on educating and informing me on the complex intricacies of British politics, and I highly recommend the DM to anyone new to Britain for getting up to speed.


>implying the Daily Mail understands the concept of responsible journalism

Also lol at the idea that the most vocally anti-migrant paper would be good reading material for migrants.
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