US Betrays Democracy in Middle East, Again

[Olerand]

A truly disgusting maneuver by America, trampling over the Kurds, again. But such is geopolitics, it is betrayal. Hopefully the Kurds will be able to salvage something before America drives in the final dagger into their hearts.

As much as I strongly condemn this and the truly epic idiocy of the Obama administration's foreign policies, withdrawing from one NON Kurdish city is hardly fatal or that harmful or Rojava.

Manbij is irellevant in itself, it was only supposed to be a stepping stone on linking Afrin to the west and the rest of Rojava in the east. The PYD holding Arab-majority Manbij was unrealistic at best, and the PYD has withdrawn in favor of a local PYD-allied Arab organization anyway. But this move, this betrayal let's be honest, stops any possibility of having a bunch of client orgs controlling the route between Afrin and the rest of Kurdish Rojava. The Kurds' advance to the west has effectively been halted, Rojava threatened in its continued existence, especially if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic President of the Bosporus.

[Bakery Hill]

As much as I strongly condemn this and the truly epic idiocy of the Obama administration's foreign policies, withdrawing from one NON Kurdish city is hardly fatal or that harmful or Rojava.

Manbij is irellevant in itself, it was only supposed to be a stepping stone on linking Afrin to the west and the rest of Rojava in the east. The PYD holding Arab-majority Manbij was unrealistic at best, and the PYD has withdrawn in favor of a local PYD-allied Arab organization anyway. But this move, this betrayal let's be honest, stops any possibility of having a bunch of client orgs controlling the route between Afrin and the rest of Kurdish Rojava. The Kurds' advance to the west has effectively been halted, Rojava threatened in its continued existence, especially if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic President of the Bosporus.

Yeah true. And the PYD has been consciously trying not to look like an occupier. It's had to stall offensives to recruit locals and make alliances. The fact that it does, rather than occupy any town it wants and rule by fear make it hands down the best faction in the war for the common people.

[Novus America]

Last 16 years have been marked by what can only be defined as a clown-car policy in the middle east.

Indeed. But our foreign policy outside the ME is not much better. The purpose of foreing policy is to advance your interests and goals. What are our goals? What is the end game? What is the plan? Hoping liberal democracy magically appears and solves are problems is not a plan.

We should not have invaded Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. (Or at all but if you are going to do something have a freaking plan) We should not have fled from Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. We should not have gotten involved in Libya with no plan to deal with the aftermath. Now Syria... I think we can see a pattern here.

[Novus America]

As much as I strongly condemn this and the truly epic idiocy of the Obama administration's foreign policies, withdrawing from one NON Kurdish city is hardly fatal or that harmful or Rojava.

Manbij is irellevant in itself, it was only supposed to be a stepping stone on linking Afrin to the west and the rest of Rojava in the east. The PYD holding Arab-majority Manbij was unrealistic at best, and the PYD has withdrawn in favor of a local PYD-allied Arab organization anyway. But this move, this betrayal let's be honest, stops any possibility of having a bunch of client orgs controlling the route between Afrin and the rest of Kurdish Rojava. The Kurds' advance to the west has effectively been halted, Rojava threatened in its continued existence, especially if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic President of the Bosporus.

Well I agree it was a really stupid move on the part of the US. And we need to stop doing whatever the Caliph dictates.

It is worrisome and a strategic blunder, but we should not blow it out of proportion either.

[Legrian Dominion]

Last 16 years have been marked by what can only be defined as a clown-car policy in the middle east.

Indeed. But our foreign policy outside the ME is not much better. The purpose of foreing policy is to advance your interests and goals. What are our goals? What is the end game? What is the plan? Hoping liberal democracy magically appears and solves are problems is not a plan.

We should not have invaded Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. (Or at all but if you are going to do something have a freaking plan) We should not have fled from Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. We should not have gotten involved in Libya with no plan to deal with the aftermath. Now Syria... I think we can see a pattern here.

Should've just annexed them all.

[Novus America]

Indeed. But our foreign policy outside the ME is not much better. The purpose of foreing policy is to advance your interests and goals. What are our goals? What is the end game? What is the plan? Hoping liberal democracy magically appears and solves are problems is not a plan.

We should not have invaded Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. (Or at all but if you are going to do something have a freaking plan) We should not have fled from Iraq with no plan on how to deal with the aftermath. We should not have gotten involved in Libya with no plan to deal with the aftermath. Now Syria... I think we can see a pattern here.

Should've just annexed them all.

Fuck that shit. If we are going to annex a place it should be some place like Mexico or Panama. (I do not support annexation without the support of the populace though). Hell I would much rather take Haiti over Iraq, Libya or worst of all (shudders) Syria.

[Olerand]

Manbij is irellevant in itself, it was only supposed to be a stepping stone on linking Afrin to the west and the rest of Rojava in the east. The PYD holding Arab-majority Manbij was unrealistic at best, and the PYD has withdrawn in favor of a local PYD-allied Arab organization anyway. But this move, this betrayal let's be honest, stops any possibility of having a bunch of client orgs controlling the route between Afrin and the rest of Kurdish Rojava. The Kurds' advance to the west has effectively been halted, Rojava threatened in its continued existence, especially if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic President of the Bosporus.

Yeah true. And the PYD has been consciously trying not to look like an occupier. It's had to stall offensives to recruit locals and make alliances. The fact that it does, rather than occupy any town it wants and rule by fear make it hands down the best faction in the war for the common people.

Well, the PYD is not without faults. In mixed Arab-Kurdish areas, it has been documented to demolish the houses of Arab residents who have fled (from either the IS, or the latter Kurdish liberation), to make the area entirely Kurdish. That is a wrong process, but considering the history there, and the idea amongst the Kurds that many Arabs collaborated with the IS against them (not an entirely wrong one, if one sees what the Sunni Arabs neighbors did to the Kurdish Yazidis in Iraq), it is comprehensible, if not entirely defensible.

But yes, by and large, the PYD is the best, and only, side that the West should support in this. Certainly not the regime, nor those ad-hoc mostly Islamist rebels either. This idea of course limits the possibility of the West to shape Syria beyond the Kurdish areas, but sometimes, when faced with the plague or cholera, it is best to just stay out of the issue, and let Russia/Iran and Saudi Arabia/Turkey/Qatar fight it out amongst themselves.

But, America, in its capacity as the leading Western force, has unsurprisingly betrayed the PYD. Leaving us with... the Islamic Republic of Turkey and whatever the hell its vision of Syria is. Well we know its vision, a united, Sunni Syria, with no Shia, Christian, or Druze influence, and preferably no Kurdish presence whatsoever, governed from Damascus by the Muslim Brotherhood. Which is apparently the West's vision now too.

[Olerand]

Manbij is irellevant in itself, it was only supposed to be a stepping stone on linking Afrin to the west and the rest of Rojava in the east. The PYD holding Arab-majority Manbij was unrealistic at best, and the PYD has withdrawn in favor of a local PYD-allied Arab organization anyway. But this move, this betrayal let's be honest, stops any possibility of having a bunch of client orgs controlling the route between Afrin and the rest of Kurdish Rojava. The Kurds' advance to the west has effectively been halted, Rojava threatened in its continued existence, especially if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic President of the Bosporus.

Well I agree it was a really stupid move on the part of the US. And we need to stop doing whatever the Caliph dictates.

It is worrisome and a strategic blunder, but we should not blow it out of proportion either.

The sustainability of Rojava and its existence is not God-given, as the PYD will assuredly tell you (which demarcates them from the other sides of this conflict other than the regime, and from the vision that many Americans themselves hold of the world). It is fought for, by the Kurdish people and their militants, and assured by Western aid. Without Western aid, Rojava is under threat.

Already, not being able to link the west to the east is a serious problem, if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic Republic, Rojava is done for. The history of the Kurdish people is one of Western betrayal, and I'm sure no Kurd has forgotten America's actions in the 80s.

[Baltenstein]

So the US have thrown the one and only trustworthy ally in the region under the bus to pander to an insane autocrat who hates the West regardless of circumstances?
How regrettable.

[Novus America]

Well I agree it was a really stupid move on the part of the US. And we need to stop doing whatever the Caliph dictates.

It is worrisome and a strategic blunder, but we should not blow it out of proportion either.

The sustainability of Rojava and its existence is not God-given, as the PYD will assuredly tell you (which demarcates them from the other sides of this conflict other than the regime, and from the vision that many Americans themselves hold of the world). It is fought for, by the Kurdish people and their militants, and assured by Western aid. Without Western aid, Rojava is under threat.

Already, not being able to link the west to the east is a serious problem, if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic Republic, Rojava is done for. The history of the Kurdish people is one of Western betrayal, and I'm sure no Kurd has forgotten America's actions in the 80s.

Rojava cannot overextend itself either. Taking too much land can be much more dangerous than consolidating what you have. Sure it needs Western aid, which puts it in a tricky spot. Though Turkey is not going to launch a invasion, and Assad poses little threat to the Rojava at this point. Certainly the circumstances are dangerous, but the Kurds know how to survive.

Now the entire history of the Kurdish people is not Western betrayal. Without the US their would be no Autnoumous Iraqi Kurdistan, the US defeat of Saddam in the Gulf War and the no fly zone forced Iraq to withdraw from the Kurdish region in 1991.

The US is very popular in Iraqi Kurdistan.

[Novus America]

So the US have thrown the one and only trustworthy ally in the region under the bus to pander to an insane autocrat who hates the West regardless of circumstances?
How regrettable.

Regrettable. But typical. Throwing allies under the bus to pander to autocrats who hate us has sadly been the US policy the last 16 years.

[Olerand]

The sustainability of Rojava and its existence is not God-given, as the PYD will assuredly tell you (which demarcates them from the other sides of this conflict other than the regime, and from the vision that many Americans themselves hold of the world). It is fought for, by the Kurdish people and their militants, and assured by Western aid. Without Western aid, Rojava is under threat.

Already, not being able to link the west to the east is a serious problem, if America is willing to make more concessions to the Islamic Republic, Rojava is done for. The history of the Kurdish people is one of Western betrayal, and I'm sure no Kurd has forgotten America's actions in the 80s.

Rojava cannot overextend itself either. Taking too much land can be much more dangerous than consolidating what you have. Sure it needs Western aid, which puts it in a tricky spot. Though Turkey is not going to launch a invasion, and Assad poses little threat to the Rojava at this point. Certainly the circumstances are dangerous, but the Kurds know how to survive.

Now the entire history of the Kurdish people is not Western betrayal. Without the US their would be no Autnoumous Iraqi Kurdistan, the US defeat of Saddam in the Gulf War and the no fly zone forced Iraq to withdraw from the Kurdish region in 1991.

Which it never planned on doing. This is why the Kurds have refused Western calls to descend and take Raqqa, as they know that they have no business going there. The PYD didn't extend to the West for the pretty views of the northern Syrian hills, or for the powerful resources hidden in the region (I don't think the PYD is craving olives or whatever) but simply so as to link Afrin to the rest of Rojava. The land, devoid of Kurdish presence, could not be held by the Kurds anyway, which is why (with American calls to appear more Syrian and less Kurdish) the PYD has subsumed itself into the "Syrian Democratic Forces" which includes non-Kurdish elements, so as to have allied Arabs hold majority Arab areas that it cannot hold.

As for Turkey, we don't know what it is going to do. As their vice-prime minister said on television when they launched the invasion, their target is the PYD, and thus not the IS. What their final solution (I use those words purposefully) to the Syrian Kurdish problem is is not yet known.

And I'm sure the Kurds know how to survive, they have for a while now, through starvations, mass slaughters, and chemical attacks. One would hope, however, now that they are the only ones fighting this conflict for what we would recognize to be our values, and they have been our only reliable allies in the region, we would not leave them to "survive" as they have in the past.

I didn't say their entire history is. Of course not, the Kurds are an old people. Their 20th century history, which is quite an important period, is one of Western betrayal though. First by us and the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then by America when we stopped mattering as much.

And without the US and the rest of the West backing Saddam against Iran in the 1980s, with chemical weapons too, his 1988 genocide of the Kurds would not have happened either. The Kurds have wanted their own nation-State since the dawn of the Kurdish movement in the 19th century, and the West finally giving them a rump-State in one region in 1990 after allowing them to be slaughtered for decades is not much of a conciliation, no?

So the US have thrown the one and only trustworthy ally in the region under the bus to pander to an insane autocrat who hates the West regardless of circumstances?
How regrettable.

Regrettable. But typical. Throwing allies under the bus to pander to autocrats who hate us has sadly been the US policy the last 16 years.

Quite a longer period than that I'm sure. America has a history of supporting convenient dictators against likely allies, going back... Some two centuries maybe?

[Rio Cana]

Should've just annexed them all.

Fuck that shit. If we are going to annex a place it should be some place like Mexico or Panama. (I do not support annexation without the support of the populace though). Hell I would much rather take Haiti over Iraq, Libya or worst of all (shudders) Syria.

There is a reason Mexican schools tend to mix in nationalistic/patriotic events. They really start early. The following took place in a Mexican town just across the border from Brownsville Texas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23UtGiEN70

Did you notice how the kid and everyone else salutes the flag at 2:16. Now what does that remind you of.

[Novus America]

Fuck that shit. If we are going to annex a place it should be some place like Mexico or Panama. (I do not support annexation without the support of the populace though). Hell I would much rather take Haiti over Iraq, Libya or worst of all (shudders) Syria.

There is a reason Mexican schools tend to mix in nationalistic/patriotic events. They really start early. The following took place in a Mexican town just across the border from Brownsville Texas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23UtGiEN70

Did you notice how the kid and everyone else salutes the flag at 2:16. Now what does that remind you of.

You misse the point. I am not saying we should invade Mexico. I am saying if we wanted to annex a place it would not be Iraq, Libya, or least of all Syria.

[The balkens]

Meh, We can afford it.

[Olerand]

Meh, We can afford it.

Can you? Is the Middle East in such good shape that one can afford this?

[The balkens]

Meh, We can afford it.

Can you? Is the Middle East in such good shape that one can afford this?

Yep.

All we have to do is bolster a few dictators, let them fight their own wars and leave it the hell alone.

[Veridys]

This doesn't surprise me one bit. A part of me always expected something like this was gonna happen.

[Olerand]

Can you? Is the Middle East in such good shape that one can afford this?

Yep.

All we have to do is bolster a few dictators, let them fight their own wars and leave it the hell alone.

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

[The balkens]

Yep.

All we have to do is bolster a few dictators, let them fight their own wars and leave it the hell alone.

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

South America worked out well enough.

Room for improvement? Sure, maybe a bombardment here and there. intervention only as a last resort, yadda yadda yadda wall off Turkey and kick them out of NATO blah blah blah.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Fucking Turks. Dump Erdogan and realize the only thing the Kurds want is peace and prosperity for all. They don't want to fight you; if you can get that through your brains, your petty war will be over, and you can collectively fuck Da'esh.

But no. Kerry is going to bend over for the Caliph and his insane agenda of Lesser Islamistan. What brilliant foreign policy. I just hope the Kurds don't give up hope on America because of all our screwups.

[Gauthier]

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

South America worked out well enough.

Room for improvement? Sure, maybe a bombardment here and there. intervention only as a last resort, yadda yadda yadda wall off Turkey and kick them out of NATO blah blah blah.

And yet you wonder why Iran has a Supreme Council encouraging people to sing "DEATH TO AMERICA" in the streets to begin with.

[The balkens]

South America worked out well enough.

Room for improvement? Sure, maybe a bombardment here and there. intervention only as a last resort, yadda yadda yadda wall off Turkey and kick them out of NATO blah blah blah.

And yet you wonder why Iran has a Supreme Council encouraging people to sing "DEATH TO AMERICA" in the streets to begin with.

Its Iran, their military couldnt beat Saddams Iraq in a Trench warfare dominated conflict.

[G-Tech Corporation]

And yet you wonder why Iran has a Supreme Council encouraging people to sing "DEATH TO AMERICA" in the streets to begin with.

Its Iran, their military couldnt beat Saddams Iraq in a Trench warfare dominated conflict.

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

[Olerand]

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

South America worked out well enough.

Room for improvement? Sure, maybe a bombardment here and there. intervention only as a last resort, yadda yadda yadda wall off Turkey and kick them out of NATO blah blah blah.

Did it? They've broken from those dictatorships, which is to their credit. The Mid-East hasn't, which is... not to their credit. So... How long is this supposed to last?