US Betrays Democracy in Middle East, Again

[Baltenstein]

Its Iran, their military couldnt beat Saddams Iraq in a Trench warfare dominated conflict.

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

And children with little plastic keys.

[Olerand]

Fucking Turks. Dump Erdogan and realize the only thing the Kurds want is peace and prosperity for all. They don't want to fight you; if you can get that through your brains, your petty war will be over, and you can collectively fuck Da'esh.

But no. Kerry is going to bend over for the Caliph and his insane agenda of Lesser Islamistan. What brilliant foreign policy. I just hope the Kurds don't give up hope on America because of all our screwups.

OK, well, they're good, but they're not Santa's little helpers.

I agree that this is shitty foreign policy though. I wish we were closer to the Chirac-de Villepin view of foreign policy and less to the Hollande-Fabius view nowadays so I can critique more but...

Its Iran, their military couldnt beat Saddams Iraq in a Trench warfare dominated conflict.

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

And supported by the West and the Soviet Union. Iran had......... Yeah.

[Gauthier]

And everyone saw exactly how long Western support for Iraq lasted.

[Novus America]

South America worked out well enough.

Room for improvement? Sure, maybe a bombardment here and there. intervention only as a last resort, yadda yadda yadda wall off Turkey and kick them out of NATO blah blah blah.

And yet you wonder why Iran has a Supreme Council encouraging people to sing "DEATH TO AMERICA" in the streets to begin with.

Umm the Clerics SUPPORTED the 1953 coup. To stop land reform. And only later turned against the Shah when the Shah tried land reform. Guess who owns most of the Iand?

[G-Tech Corporation]

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

And children with little plastic keys.

Easiest way to get to heaven, don't you know?

Fucking Turks. Dump Erdogan and realize the only thing the Kurds want is peace and prosperity for all. They don't want to fight you; if you can get that through your brains, your petty war will be over, and you can collectively fuck Da'esh.

But no. Kerry is going to bend over for the Caliph and his insane agenda of Lesser Islamistan. What brilliant foreign policy. I just hope the Kurds don't give up hope on America because of all our screwups.

OK, well, they're good, but they're not Santa's little helpers.

I agree that this is shitty foreign policy though. I wish we were closer to the Chirac-de Villepin view of foreign policy and less to the Hollande-Fabius view nowadays so I can critique more but...

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

And supported by the West and the Soviet Union. Iran had......... Yeah.

True. But given the choice of "occasionally spiteful but generally standup fellows fighting for a secular cause of self-determination and protection of friendly elements" and "Assad" or "jihadists pretending not to jihad too hard" or "literally Islamic Hitler", I'll take Kurds every time.

[Platypus Reborn]

It looks more like Biden was telling them to move back so that the Turkish don't kill the US's only 'good' ally in the region, seemed like a cautionary warning and not a threat.

[Novus America]

Yep.

All we have to do is bolster a few dictators, let them fight their own wars and leave it the hell alone.

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

That has not been America's policy. You missed the leave it alone part. The US had limited involvement in the Middle East, and little problem from it until the 70s and the oil crisis. But we no longer need the oil. We can get out now. Not overnight, but we need exit strategy. That actually works and does not bring us right back in.

[Olerand]

And children with little plastic keys.

Easiest way to get to heaven, don't you know?

OK, well, they're good, but they're not Santa's little helpers.

I agree that this is shitty foreign policy though. I wish we were closer to the Chirac-de Villepin view of foreign policy and less to the Hollande-Fabius view nowadays so I can critique more but...


And supported by the West and the Soviet Union. Iran had......... Yeah.

True. But given the choice of "occasionally spiteful but generally standup fellows fighting for a secular cause of self-determination and protection of friendly elements" and "Assad" or "jihadists pretending not to jihad too hard" or "literally Islamic Hitler", I'll take Kurds every time.

Absolutely.

It looks more like Biden was telling them to move back so that the Turkish don't kill the US's only 'good' ally in the region, seemed like a cautionary warning and not a threat.

But a cautionary warning for the Kurds in support of the Turks is not... Good.

How has that worked out so far? This has been America's policy since at least the 1950s. How is the situation now?

That has not been America's policy. You missed the leave it alone part. The US had limited involvement in the Middle East, and little problem from it until the 70s and the oil crisis. But we no longer need the oil. We can get out now. Not overnight, but we need exit strategy. That actually works and does not bring us right back in.

Limited by... 2003 standards? Sure, of course. Limited by what standards?

America has, on and off, supported authoritarian rulers in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. De facto it has oftentimes looked the other way for Syria too, as in Lebanon. That's almost all of the countries in the region. Now, what is the fate of these countries today?

[The balkens]

To be fair, Iraq was significantly better equipped. The main equipment the Iranians had were balls of steel and bodies.

And children with little plastic keys.

Dear god, they were that desperate?

[G-Tech Corporation]

And children with little plastic keys.

Dear god, they were that desperate?

The Imams knew a good use for religious fervor when they saw it. Nothing like a few hundred thousand dead to make people focus on their external problems instead of internal issues.

[The balkens]

Dear god, they were that desperate?

The Imams knew a good use for religious fervor when they saw it. Nothing like a few hundred thousand dead to make people focus on their external problems instead of internal issues.

Iran-iraq is quite the interesting war.

[Novus America]

Easiest way to get to heaven, don't you know?



True. But given the choice of "occasionally spiteful but generally standup fellows fighting for a secular cause of self-determination and protection of friendly elements" and "Assad" or "jihadists pretending not to jihad too hard" or "literally Islamic Hitler", I'll take Kurds every time.

Absolutely.

It looks more like Biden was telling them to move back so that the Turkish don't kill the US's only 'good' ally in the region, seemed like a cautionary warning and not a threat.

But a cautionary warning for the Kurds in support of the Turks is not... Good.

That has not been America's policy. You missed the leave it alone part. The US had limited involvement in the Middle East, and little problem from it until the 70s and the oil crisis. But we no longer need the oil. We can get out now. Not overnight, but we need exit strategy. That actually works and does not bring us right back in.

Limited by... 2003 standards? Sure, of course. Limited by what standards?

America has, on and off, supported authoritarian rulers in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. De facto it has oftentimes looked the other way for Syria too, as in Lebanon. That's almost all of the countries in the region. Now, what is the fate of these countries today?

More limited than now is good. We did not have a large military presence since and did not get dragged into wars there. Sure we backed dictators but eh, you support who can help you. Moralism and foreing policy do no not mix very well. It was never our duty to spread democracy and prosperity to the Middle East.

Plus the UAE and Kuwait look great, well by the very low standards of the region. But honestly that is not the point. It is not our job to make the ME good. I am more concerned about the fate of our soldiers than the fate of other countries.

Back in the 50s and 60s we could influence things in the ME without getting dragged into fighting. Which is pretty ideal. Even when we mad mistakes the conquer we were less severe.

[Novus America]

The Imams knew a good use for religious fervor when they saw it. Nothing like a few hundred thousand dead to make people focus on their external problems instead of internal issues.

Iran-iraq is quite the interesting war.

Yes. Two sides with 1980s technology and 1910 tactics. Also proves the risk of just buying lots of weapons. The Iraqis got lots of Soviet tanks. But had no idea how to use them. Or even sight in the guns. So the tanks had to close to point blank range to hit anything.

[Olerand]

Absolutely.


But a cautionary warning for the Kurds in support of the Turks is not... Good.


Limited by... 2003 standards? Sure, of course. Limited by what standards?

America has, on and off, supported authoritarian rulers in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. De facto it has oftentimes looked the other way for Syria too, as in Lebanon. That's almost all of the countries in the region. Now, what is the fate of these countries today?

More limited than now is good. We did not have a large military presence since and did not get dragged into wars there. Sure we backed dictators but eh, you support who can help you. Moralism and foreing policy do no not mix very well. It was never our duty to spread democracy and prosperity to the Middle East.

Plus the UAE and Kuwait look great, well by the very low standards of the region. But honestly that is not the point. It is not our job to make the ME good. I am more concerned about the fate of our soldiers than the fate of other countries.

Back in the 50s and 60s we could influence things in the ME without getting dragged into fighting. Which is pretty ideal. Even when we mad mistakes the conquer we were less severe.

Moralism and foreign policy often do not mix well, I agree. But foreign policy should not be short-sighted, as America's has been... For quite some time now. Believing that this status quo is sustainable is... An opinion that I would rather not believe America shares, because it is frightening if it really does. Short-term, this works. Long-term, this is fucked.
I don't support some liberal democratic crusade in the region either. But to think what America has been doing so far has been good (especially with the Arabian Peninsula regimes) is... not a good belief, to me.

The entire Arabian Peninsula has high living standards. Meanwhile, the UAE and Kuwait are still stuck in Bedouin cultures, their economy dependent on oil, real estate, and their citizens' oil fueled luxury spending, with a massive, unemployed, youth bulge. I don't envy either countries when the State's ability to pay off its people with the oil rent falters, as it is beginning to. They have no makings for success without oil. Literally, none.
And I certainly agree that it is not America's job to make the region good. Whenever it has tried, in fact, it has made it worse. But again, to think that the stagnation of the past is the way of the future is... not good.

Things have changed. Islamism wasn't really a thing, the Soviet Union held the opposite counter-weight. Now Islamism is a thing, and the USSR is dead. The 1950s and 60s are over, regrettably.

[The United Holy German Reich]

US Imperialism strikes again!

[Novus America]

More limited than now is good. We did not have a large military presence since and did not get dragged into wars there. Sure we backed dictators but eh, you support who can help you. Moralism and foreing policy do no not mix very well. It was never our duty to spread democracy and prosperity to the Middle East.

Plus the UAE and Kuwait look great, well by the very low standards of the region. But honestly that is not the point. It is not our job to make the ME good. I am more concerned about the fate of our soldiers than the fate of other countries.

Back in the 50s and 60s we could influence things in the ME without getting dragged into fighting. Which is pretty ideal. Even when we mad mistakes the conquer we were less severe.

Moralism and foreign policy often do not mix well, I agree. But foreign policy should not be short-sighted, as America's has been... For quite some time now. Believing that this status quo is sustainable is... An opinion that I would rather not believe America shares, because it is frightening if it really does. Short-term, this works. Long-term, this is fucked.
I don't support some liberal democratic crusade in the region either. But to think what America has been doing so far has been good (especially with the Arabian Peninsula regimes) is... not a good belief, to me.

The entire Arabian Peninsula has high living standards. Meanwhile, the UAE and Kuwait are still stuck in Bedouin cultures, their economy dependent on oil, real estate, and their citizens' oil fueled luxury spending, with a massive, unemployed, youth bulge. I don't envy either countries when the State's ability to pay off its people with the oil rent falters, as it is beginning to. They have no makings for success without oil. Literally, none.
And I certainly agree that it is not America's job to make the region good. Whenever it has tried, in fact, it has made it worse. But again, to think that the stagnation of the past is the way of the future is... not good.

Things have changed. Islamism wasn't really a thing, the Soviet Union held the opposite counter-weight. Now Islamism is a thing, and the USSR is dead. The 1950s and 60s are over, regrettably.

Well the UAE and Kuwait are good by regional standards still. The whole ME is stuck in the past and going backwards. There is no hope, no future for the region. When the oil age ends it will be sent back to the Stone Age with the exception of a few places like Israel. But again, not our job to save them from themselves.

We need to focus more on arms length containment and less on direct intervention. Yemen is a good example. It might be a total shit hole, but we do not really need to worry about it that much either. Besides plinking the occasional AQ guy with a drone.

In that regard Yemen is better for us than Afganistan or Iraq. The Shia and Sunni powers are going to fight. We cannot stop them. It would be better if they would be peaceful liberal democracies. But that is not going to happen. And it is not our fight.

[Olerand]

Moralism and foreign policy often do not mix well, I agree. But foreign policy should not be short-sighted, as America's has been... For quite some time now. Believing that this status quo is sustainable is... An opinion that I would rather not believe America shares, because it is frightening if it really does. Short-term, this works. Long-term, this is fucked.
I don't support some liberal democratic crusade in the region either. But to think what America has been doing so far has been good (especially with the Arabian Peninsula regimes) is... not a good belief, to me.

The entire Arabian Peninsula has high living standards. Meanwhile, the UAE and Kuwait are still stuck in Bedouin cultures, their economy dependent on oil, real estate, and their citizens' oil fueled luxury spending, with a massive, unemployed, youth bulge. I don't envy either countries when the State's ability to pay off its people with the oil rent falters, as it is beginning to. They have no makings for success without oil. Literally, none.
And I certainly agree that it is not America's job to make the region good. Whenever it has tried, in fact, it has made it worse. But again, to think that the stagnation of the past is the way of the future is... not good.

Things have changed. Islamism wasn't really a thing, the Soviet Union held the opposite counter-weight. Now Islamism is a thing, and the USSR is dead. The 1950s and 60s are over, regrettably.

Well the UAE and Kuwait are good by regional standards still. The whole ME is stuck in the past and going backwards. There is no hope, no future for the region. When the oil age ends it will be sent back to the Stone Age with the exception of a few places like Israel. But again, not our job to save them from themselves.

We need to focus more on arms length containment and less on direct intervention. Yemen is a good example. It might be a total shit hole, but we do not really need to worry about it that much either. Besides plinking the occasional AQ guy with a drone.

In that regard Yemen is better for us than Afganistan or Iraq. The Shia and Sunni powers are going to fight. We cannot stop them. It would be better if they would be peaceful liberal democracies. But that is not going to happen. And it is not our fight.

See, if the trouble in the region was only trouble for the region, we, honestly, probably wouldn't be discussing this. But it's not. The region's problems are increasingly becoming the world's problems. And either we solve them, or they fuck us up.

The situation in Yemen (other than the humanitarian disaster of course) is also fucked. This conflict has no end in sight. Saudi Arabia won't invade by land, the Yemenis Sunnis cannot take the Shia north from the rebels. Yemen hasn't had a State since the collapse of South Yemen. It hasn't been a nation since its reunification. It won't be a country soon either. It is literally a lawless desert, with anarchy and crises run amoke. That is the future of the region, in short.

I agree. Not your fight. But certainly your concern. Because the thing about the region is, it rarely keeps its problems to itself. We're attached to them, physically, so we can't afford ourselves this nonchalant attitude, but I'm sure you know, deep down, that neither can you, really.

[Novus America]

Well the UAE and Kuwait are good by regional standards still. The whole ME is stuck in the past and going backwards. There is no hope, no future for the region. When the oil age ends it will be sent back to the Stone Age with the exception of a few places like Israel. But again, not our job to save them from themselves.

We need to focus more on arms length containment and less on direct intervention. Yemen is a good example. It might be a total shit hole, but we do not really need to worry about it that much either. Besides plinking the occasional AQ guy with a drone.

In that regard Yemen is better for us than Afganistan or Iraq. The Shia and Sunni powers are going to fight. We cannot stop them. It would be better if they would be peaceful liberal democracies. But that is not going to happen. And it is not our fight.

See, if the trouble in the region was only trouble for the region, we, honestly, probably wouldn't be discussing this. But it's not. The region's problems are increasingly becoming the world's problems. And either we solve them, or they fuck us up.

The situation in Yemen (other than the humanitarian disaster of course) is also fucked. This conflict has no end in sight. Saudi Arabia won't invade by land, the Yemenis Sunnis cannot take the Shia north from the rebels. Yemen hasn't had a State since the collapse of South Yemen. It hasn't been a nation since its reunification. It won't be a country soon either. It is literally a lawless desert, with anarchy and crises run amoke. That is the future of the region, in short.

I agree. Not your fight. But certainly your concern. Because the thing about the region is, it rarely keeps its problems to itself. We're attached to them, physically, so we can't afford ourselves this nonchalant attitude, but I'm sure you know, deep down, that neither can you, really.

Well we cannot ingnore it entirely. But yes we have become attached. See that is the problem, too attached. Cut back the attachments and it. True Europe has a bigger problem of being physically attached. But the US has a thousand mile wide moat. Which gives us more room to maneuver. Still Europe can cut back on ecnomic attachements. Phase out the blood oil. Which the US already mostly has done.

See I am not advocating a total overnight withdrawal here. Which would just make things worse and drag us back in. See Iraq. But a slow steady long term exit strategy. We cannot get out today. Or tomorrow. But we can avoid new involvements. Get progressively less directly involved. Progressively more arms length. It is like Heroin. You cannot just quit it. But taking more will kill you. We need to go to ME rehab of sorts.

And see you say we have to solve the problems of they fuck us up. Problem is the problems CANNOT be solved. Most the ME is beyond saving. Sure we should save what we can, but vast swaths will have to just be left to their inevitable fate.

Yes. Yemen is totally fucked. But as long as we can contain its effects, and Yemen is pretty well contained that is the only thing we can do. Contain it as best we can. We cannot stop the war. Just avoid getting dragged in.

[Olerand]

See, if the trouble in the region was only trouble for the region, we, honestly, probably wouldn't be discussing this. But it's not. The region's problems are increasingly becoming the world's problems. And either we solve them, or they fuck us up.

The situation in Yemen (other than the humanitarian disaster of course) is also fucked. This conflict has no end in sight. Saudi Arabia won't invade by land, the Yemenis Sunnis cannot take the Shia north from the rebels. Yemen hasn't had a State since the collapse of South Yemen. It hasn't been a nation since its reunification. It won't be a country soon either. It is literally a lawless desert, with anarchy and crises run amoke. That is the future of the region, in short.

I agree. Not your fight. But certainly your concern. Because the thing about the region is, it rarely keeps its problems to itself. We're attached to them, physically, so we can't afford ourselves this nonchalant attitude, but I'm sure you know, deep down, that neither can you, really.

Well we cannot ingnore it entirely. But yes we have become attached. See that is the problem, too attached. Cut back the attachments and it. True Europe has a bigger problem of being physically attached. But the US has a thousand mile wide moat. Which gives us more room to maneuver. Still Europe can cut back on ecnomic attachements. Phase out the blood oil. Which the US already mostly has done.

See I am not advocating a total overnight withdrawal here. Which would just make things worse and drag us back in. See Iraq. But a slow steady long term exit strategy. We cannot get out today. Or tomorrow. But we can avoid new involvements. Get progressively less directly involved. Progressively more arms length. It is like Heroin. You cannot just quit it. But taking more will kill you. We need to go to ME rehab of sorts.

And see you say we have to solve the problems of they fuck us up. Problem is the problems CANNOT be solved. Most the ME is beyond saving. Sure we should save what we can, but vast swaths will have to just be left to their inevitable fate.

Yes. Yemen is totally fucked. But as long as we can contain its effects, and Yemen is pretty well contained that is the only thing we can do. Contain it as best we can. We cannot stop the war. Just avoid getting dragged in.

I agree in reducing our attachment, but neither of us will ever find independence.

I agree, though I do not think that will make things better. But I don't think anything will make things better anymore, and America being less involved will at least reduce the chance of things becoming worse.

I agree again. Which means we're fucked anyway. I was proposing what would be ideal, not realistic, of course.

Contained because the contagion hasn't spread. When the oil rent collapses, we'll see the contagion spread.

[Novus America]

Well we cannot ingnore it entirely. But yes we have become attached. See that is the problem, too attached. Cut back the attachments and it. True Europe has a bigger problem of being physically attached. But the US has a thousand mile wide moat. Which gives us more room to maneuver. Still Europe can cut back on ecnomic attachements. Phase out the blood oil. Which the US already mostly has done.

See I am not advocating a total overnight withdrawal here. Which would just make things worse and drag us back in. See Iraq. But a slow steady long term exit strategy. We cannot get out today. Or tomorrow. But we can avoid new involvements. Get progressively less directly involved. Progressively more arms length. It is like Heroin. You cannot just quit it. But taking more will kill you. We need to go to ME rehab of sorts.

And see you say we have to solve the problems of they fuck us up. Problem is the problems CANNOT be solved. Most the ME is beyond saving. Sure we should save what we can, but vast swaths will have to just be left to their inevitable fate.

Yes. Yemen is totally fucked. But as long as we can contain its effects, and Yemen is pretty well contained that is the only thing we can do. Contain it as best we can. We cannot stop the war. Just avoid getting dragged in.

I agree in reducing our attachment, but neither of us will ever find independence.

I agree, though I do not think that will make things better. But I don't think anything will make things better anymore, and America being less involved will at least reduce the chance of things becoming worse.

I agree again. Which means we're fucked anyway. I was proposing what would be ideal, not realistic, of course.

Contained because the contagion hasn't spread. When the oil rent collapses, we'll see the contagion spread.

Well then we agree, the key is how to get less involved. I think the heroin analogy is pretty apt. We cannot just quit, but we need a rehab plan.

Actually when the oil rent collapses short term will get real bad. But long term better. Oil is the source of much of the regions ills. The end of oil means the end of Wahhabi money. Wahhabi mosques and schools bankrupt. No more being built. Saudi Arabia unable to spread its hate. No more rentier regimes.

Some times short term things most get much worse before they get better.

[The Lone Alliance]

Well the UAE and Kuwait are good by regional standards still. The whole ME is stuck in the past and going backwards. There is no hope, no future for the region. When the oil age ends it will be sent back to the Stone Age with the exception of a few places like Israel. But again, not our job to save them from themselves.

It will when the collapse leads to a refugee crisis that makes Syria look mild.

[The Florists Union]

It appears that Biden's statement is directed towards the Kurds, not SDF in general.

We shouldn't be glossing over how the YPG sent suicide bombers into Turkey either.

[Olerand]

I agree in reducing our attachment, but neither of us will ever find independence.

I agree, though I do not think that will make things better. But I don't think anything will make things better anymore, and America being less involved will at least reduce the chance of things becoming worse.

I agree again. Which means we're fucked anyway. I was proposing what would be ideal, not realistic, of course.

Contained because the contagion hasn't spread. When the oil rent collapses, we'll see the contagion spread.

Well then we agree, the key is how to get less involved. I think the heroin analogy is pretty apt. We cannot just quit, but we need a rehab plan.

Actually when the oil rent collapses short term will get real bad. But long term better. Oil is the source of much of the regions ills. The end of oil means the end of Wahhabi money. Wahhabi mosques and schools bankrupt. No more being built. Saudi Arabia unable to spread its hate. No more rentier regimes.

Some times short term things most get much worse before they get better.

The end of Wahhabi money presumes the end of Wahhabism. But the rise of even more poverty and misery, I'm going to venture, will not make the region any less... extremist. Probably more.

But they need to get better. I don't see a "better" in the future.

[Olerand]

It appears that Biden's statement is directed towards the Kurds, not SDF in general.

We shouldn't be glossing over how the YPG sent suicide bombers into Turkey either.

It has done no such thing. The YPG does not use suicide bombings, and the PKK is not the PYD, but its sister-party.

The IS sent suicide bombers into Turkey from Syria. It is allowed to cross the Turkish border with the Turkish State's permission. The Turkish State has entered Syria today not, truly, to fight it, but to fight the YPG/PYD. So...

[Novus America]

Well the UAE and Kuwait are good by regional standards still. The whole ME is stuck in the past and going backwards. There is no hope, no future for the region. When the oil age ends it will be sent back to the Stone Age with the exception of a few places like Israel. But again, not our job to save them from themselves.

It will when the collapse leads to a refugee crisis that makes Syria look mild.

Well that will be the intial problem. You are going to need a lot of preparation for that but it is going to come anyways. So better start preparing.