US Betrays Democracy in Middle East, Again

[Bakery Hill]

And finally the US betray the only secular democratic force in the region.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-bide ... 016-8?IR=T

The cynic in me is surprised it took this long. Biden's basically insisting that either the Syrian Democratic Forces hand towns like Manbij back to jihadist militias, or the US will let the Turks crush Rojava. These are towns, most of which are majority Arab, that have already begun to set up their own democratic structures and defence forces, who celebrated in the streets when the foreign jihadists of IS were drive out, and they've already insisted that they'll fight the Turkish backed Islamists rebels no matter what happens. All this highlights something we should never forget, but many of us often do. Don't listen when our politicians talk about "liberty" and "democracy", in the game of empire, expediency is king.

Was the US right to back Islamic fundamentalists against secular democrats so as to finally defeat the scourge of fundamentalist Islam? What will/can/should the SDF do now?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

And finally the US betray the only secular democratic force in the region.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-bide ... 016-8?IR=T

The cynic in me is surprised it took this long. Biden's basically insisting that either the Syrian Democratic Forces hand towns like Manbij back to jihadist militias, or the US will let the Turks crush Rojava. These are towns, most of which are majority Arab, that have already begun to set up their own democratic structures and defence forces, who celebrated in the streets when the foreign jihadists of IS were drive out, and they've already insisted that they'll fight the Turkish backed Islamists rebels no matter what happens. All this highlights something we should never forget, but many of us often do. Don't listen when our politicians talk about "liberty" and "democracy", in the game of empire, expediency is king.

You might want to add a question to the OP so that the thread doesn't get locked as a blog post.

[Bakery Hill]

And finally the US betray the only secular democratic force in the region.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-bide ... 016-8?IR=T

The cynic in me is surprised it took this long. Biden's basically insisting that either the Syrian Democratic Forces hand towns like Manbij back to jihadist militias, or the US will let the Turks crush Rojava. These are towns, most of which are majority Arab, that have already begun to set up their own democratic structures and defence forces, who celebrated in the streets when the foreign jihadists of IS were drive out, and they've already insisted that they'll fight the Turkish backed Islamists rebels no matter what happens. All this highlights something we should never forget, but many of us often do. Don't listen when our politicians talk about "liberty" and "democracy", in the game of empire, expediency is king.

You might want to add a question to the OP so that the thread doesn't get locked as a blog post.

Cheers, will do.

[Kanaria]

This is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard, but typical.

[Kanaria]

And finally the US betray the only secular democratic force in the region.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-bide ... 016-8?IR=T

The cynic in me is surprised it took this long. Biden's basically insisting that either the Syrian Democratic Forces hand towns like Manbij back to jihadist militias, or the US will let the Turks crush Rojava. These are towns, most of which are majority Arab, that have already begun to set up their own democratic structures and defence forces, who celebrated in the streets when the foreign jihadists of IS were drive out, and they've already insisted that they'll fight the Turkish backed Islamists rebels no matter what happens. All this highlights something we should never forget, but many of us often do. Don't listen when our politicians talk about "liberty" and "democracy", in the game of empire, expediency is king.

Was the US right to back Islamic fundamentalists against secular democrats so as to finally defeat the scourge of fundamentalist Islam? What will/can/should the SDF do now?

They have no allies, and I have no moral guidance for them.
They can accede to the American demands, or they can die. That is all.
There's precious little chance Russia will back them, the likelihood of that is lower than finding cryolite in Latakia Governorate.

[The Lone Alliance]

Have to kiss Turkey's ass since they're blaming us for the coup apparently.
Reality if Rojava kept winning they'd have completely cut the northern border off.

That would have cut ISIS off completely but would have also cut off the "Not Al Qaeda that is actually Al Qaeda" from their supply lines in Turkey. Since the US clearly doesn't understand the Sunk Costs Fallacy, and\or we don't want to hurt the House of Saud's proxy war, we're going to leave the border open even though this will inevitably lead to more ISIS smugglers carrying out terror attacks...

What a wonderful policy. /s

[Costa Fierro]

The OP does realize the Syrian opposition isn't purely jihadists and other unsavoury groups, right?

[Bakery Hill]

And finally the US betray the only secular democratic force in the region.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-bide ... 016-8?IR=T

The cynic in me is surprised it took this long. Biden's basically insisting that either the Syrian Democratic Forces hand towns like Manbij back to jihadist militias, or the US will let the Turks crush Rojava. These are towns, most of which are majority Arab, that have already begun to set up their own democratic structures and defence forces, who celebrated in the streets when the foreign jihadists of IS were drive out, and they've already insisted that they'll fight the Turkish backed Islamists rebels no matter what happens. All this highlights something we should never forget, but many of us often do. Don't listen when our politicians talk about "liberty" and "democracy", in the game of empire, expediency is king.

Was the US right to back Islamic fundamentalists against secular democrats so as to finally defeat the scourge of fundamentalist Islam? What will/can/should the SDF do now?

They have no allies, and I have no moral guidance for them.
They can accede to the American demands, or they can die. That is all.
There's precious little chance Russia will back them, the likelihood of that is lower than finding cryolite in Latakia Governorate.

Wasn't it the American patriots who said "Give me liberty or give me death."? I hope they can reach some sort of compromise with the Turks, but some of the local Arabs and Kurds alike seem to be sticking by that old slogan. What would you do if you'd just thrown off Islamism, seen your friends and family die, and a week or two later, your "allies" want to see it brought back?

[Kanaria]

The OP does realize the Syrian opposition isn't purely jihadists and other unsavoury groups, right?

Rojava...is a project of that opposition.
I have no doubts that Bakery Hill does know that personally.
They just don't like the turkomanny militias Erdo is backing.

Have to kiss Turkey's ass since they're blaming us for the coup apparently.
Reality if Rojava kept winning they'd have completely cut the northern border off.

That would have cut ISIS off completely but would have also cut off the "Not Al Qaeda that is actually Al Qaeda" from their supply lines in Turkey. Since the US clearly doesn't understand the Sunk Costs Fallacy, and\or we don't want to hurt the House of Saud's proxy war, we're going to leave the border open even though this will inevitably lead to more ISIS smugglers carrying out terror attacks...

What a wonderful policy. /s

It's foolishness indeed.

[The Lone Alliance]

The OP does realize the Syrian opposition isn't purely jihadists and other unsavoury groups, right?

Not in Northern Syria, most of the rebels in North Syria are Jihadists.

[Kanaria]

They have no allies, and I have no moral guidance for them.
They can accede to the American demands, or they can die. That is all.
There's precious little chance Russia will back them, the likelihood of that is lower than finding cryolite in Latakia Governorate.

Wasn't it the American patriots who said "Give me liberty or give me death."? I hope they can reach some sort of compromise with the Turks, but some of the local Arabs and Kurds alike seem to be sticking by that old slogan. What would you do if you'd just thrown off Islamism, seen your friends and family die, and a week or two later, your "allies" want to see it brought back?

It was Patrick Henry who said that, yes.
And of course the locals would stick by that, they're stuck on the low rungs of the hierarchy of needs and are stuck in a culture that is mostly a reflection of that. They need to be alive to continue their customs.
So they'll fight most likely. Assuming that there is no settlement which allows Erdo to keep funding his islamonutbaggery in Syria and letting ISIS shitbags and refugees drift north or south, that is.

[Conserative Morality]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

[Kanaria]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

Worth too much of our bullshit reserve to keep round us anyway.
Fuck Europe and Orban's whining about ebil refugees, this is in America's interest to kick them.
Though I do imagine how lovely it would be seeing NATO unravel.

[Senkaku]

Does the OP realize that the US never really gave a shit about Middle Eastern democracy to begin with?

[Bakery Hill]

The OP does realize the Syrian opposition isn't purely jihadists and other unsavoury groups, right?

Most non secular jihadists have by now aligned with SDF, 40% of which is Arab. The rebels backed by the Turkish army seem to be little more than mercenaries, mustered in Turkey just across from Jarabulus over the past couple of weeks from jihadist militias throughout Syria. Let's take a look at them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarabulus_offensive_(2016)

Former US backed forces such as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_of_Sunna_Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Hawks_Brigade

Turkish ethnic militias such as :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Turkmen_Brigades
Diverse views ranging from Turkish ultranationalism to hardline Salafism. Great blokes

And straight out Islamists such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sham_Legion
"Moderate jihadists" so dw just a bit of Shari'a.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harakat_N ... n_al-Zenki
^ famous for beheading children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrar_al-Sham
Hardline salafists accused of ethnic cleansing of Christians.

All of these groups have worked with Al Nusra, the local Al Qaeda affiliate, including the least suspicious US vetted groups up top. Don't buy the fucking propaganda mate. These aren't the good guys.

[Bakery Hill]

Have to kiss Turkey's ass since they're blaming us for the coup apparently.
Reality if Rojava kept winning they'd have completely cut the northern border off.

That would have cut ISIS off completely but would have also cut off the "Not Al Qaeda that is actually Al Qaeda" from their supply lines in Turkey. Since the US clearly doesn't understand the Sunk Costs Fallacy, and\or we don't want to hurt the House of Saud's proxy war, we're going to leave the border open even though this will inevitably lead to more ISIS smugglers carrying out terror attacks...

What a wonderful policy. /s

Yep. Appeasement always works. Every time.

[The Lone Alliance]

Does the OP realize that the US never really gave a shit about Middle Eastern democracy to begin with?

Of course not, this is about a constantly failing plan to install a puppet in Syria that will obey Turkey and Saudi Arabia....

[Risottia]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

Worth too much of our bullshit reserve to keep round us anyway.
Fuck Europe and Orban's whining about ebil refugees, this is in America's interest to kick them.
Though I do imagine how lovely it would be seeing NATO unravel.

And this is exactly why the EU members should leave NATO, and push for a Magyexit in the meanwhile.

[Bakery Hill]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

I mean they'd have to realign their whole foreign policy in the region. But that's probably not a bad idea, seeing how that's been going for the whole of my fucking life time

[The Serbian Empire]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

The Turks are in NATO. That's the problem with allowing Islamic majority countries in the NATO structure. Their interests don't line up with ours sometimes.

[Bakery Hill]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

The Turks are in NATO. That's the problem with allowing Islamic majority countries in the NATO structure. Their interests don't line up with ours sometimes.

Well there's only two. And Albania's been fine.

[Bakery Hill]

Does the OP realize that the US never really gave a shit about Middle Eastern democracy to begin with?

In some ways it does. The doctrine of the "Liberal International" has been US foreign policy as a superpower. But whether or not a country is democratic comes in a little down the list of what the US wants. That said, I'm more highlighting the fact that many of us should stop buying the bullshit politicians try and sell us about foreign policy.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You might want to add a question to the OP so that the thread doesn't get locked as a blog post.

Cheers, will do.

There we go!

[Kanaria]

Probably should just drop the Turks at this point. Sorry, Turks.

I mean they'd have to realign their whole foreign policy in the region. But that's probably not a bad idea, seeing how that's been going for the whole of my fucking life time

Who knows, being genuinely liberal might actually work.

The Turks are in NATO. That's the problem with allowing Islamic majority countries in the NATO structure. Their interests don't line up with ours sometimes.

Well there's only two. And Albania's been fine.

Mostly. Arabization and hence wahhabisation of the ummah marches on.

[Kanaria]

Does the OP realize that the US never really gave a shit about Middle Eastern democracy to begin with?

In some ways it does. The doctrine of the "Liberal International" has been US foreign policy as a superpower. But whether or not a country is democratic comes in a little down the list of what the US wants. That said, I'm more highlighting the fact that many of us should stop buying the bullshit politicians try and sell us about foreign policy.

That would be a good idea.