LGBT Rights & Issues Thread, V4

[United Marxist Nations]

Why are those things good and bad?

Because "good" and "bad" are defined subjectively, and hey, it just so happens that most people have decided that happiness is "good" and oppression -- which leads to unhappiness -- is "bad". Who'd o' thunk it?

Now please, do tell: Why is your god good?

Before I answer that, what if I decide, based on my hatred of promiscuous people, that firebombing them is good? I would then not be incorrect, yes?

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

Do I have to bring out kindergarden definitions? Because it seems like you're really having trouble getting it.

At a basic level, why is anything good or bad? How do you get those ideas. I don't mean "desirable or undesirable", I mean "Good or bad".

There is no good or bad. Just desirable or undesirable.

[United Marxist Nations]

Then, I ask you, in relation to our topic, why should I support LGBT rights?

Cause everything tends ta run more smoothly when the government isn't running around and lifting up everyones bedsheets n' making chicks drop their pants in public, ya know?

I don't really care, tbh.

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

Because "good" and "bad" are defined subjectively, and hey, it just so happens that most people have decided that happiness is "good" and oppression -- which leads to unhappiness -- is "bad". Who'd o' thunk it?

Now please, do tell: Why is your god good?

Before I answer that, what if I decide, based on my hatred of promiscuous people, that firebombing them is good? I would then not be incorrect, yes?

You wouldn't be incorrect because "good" and "bad" aren't really things so questions about them aren't answerable.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Do I have to bring out kindergarden definitions? Because it seems like you're really having trouble getting it.

At a basic level, why is anything good or bad? How do you get those ideas. I don't mean "desirable or undesirable", I mean "Good or bad".

Things that cause harm we label "bad". Things that prevent it we label "good".
It's a useful shorthand, and something most toddlers don't need explaining to them.

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

Cause everything tends ta run more smoothly when the government isn't running around and lifting up everyones bedsheets n' making chicks drop their pants in public, ya know?

I don't really care, tbh.

Then society doesn't care about you, and you can be a loner in the woods moaning about the ebul gayz.

[Vaquas]

Do I have to bring out kindergarden definitions? Because it seems like you're really having trouble getting it.

At a basic level, why is anything good or bad? How do you get those ideas. I don't mean "desirable or undesirable", I mean "Good or bad".

Once again, basic morality here.
How do you function without any concept whatsoever of good and bad?
Seems like life would just be a series of non-guided self-sufficient decisions.
Which seems counterproductive in relation to the rest of the world that has to put up with your resource-wasting philosophy.

[Vaquas]

At a basic level, why is anything good or bad? How do you get those ideas. I don't mean "desirable or undesirable", I mean "Good or bad".

There is no good or bad. Just desirable or undesirable.

Tell that to the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Nature-Spirits]

1) You know what that sounds like? That sounds like the most antiscientific bullshit I've ever heard.

2) How about "whatever's best for everyone's wellbeing"? How about "whatever keeps society in a good condition"?

3) Why must we derive morality from a "supreme being"? I mean, honestly, there are so many examples of functioning multicultural, multifaith and/or secular societies I could point to, in which not everyone agrees on the "metaphysical", but everyone mostly agrees on morality. How does that work out if morality can only be derived from religion?

1) It's not meant to be scientific, I'm not trying to prove anything.
2) Why, though? I used to think that too, but I just can't believe that anymore.
3) Subconscious influence of the common culture.

1) You're not trying to prove the basis for all of your arguments?

Well, I guess we can all pack up, then!

2) Because it makes people happy. And if we have to exist in this universe for the duration of our lives, why not try to be as happy as we can?

3) Alright, that's a decent argument. But how do we know that your morality comes from a supreme being? And why are there so many mutually exclusive supreme beings with all these conflicting, supposedly absolute moralities?

[United Marxist Nations]

At a basic level, why is anything good or bad? How do you get those ideas. I don't mean "desirable or undesirable", I mean "Good or bad".

Once again, basic morality here.
How do you function without any concept whatsoever of good and bad?
Seems like life would just be a series of non-guided self-sufficient decisions.
Which seems counterproductive in relation to the rest of the world that has to put up with your resource-wasting philosophy.

Why does it matter how I function if there is no good or bad?

This is what I am trying to say, ridiculing morality is absurd because we cannot function without it, and we cannot have an objective morality without a supreme being.

[The V O I D]

Once again, basic morality here.
How do you function without any concept whatsoever of good and bad?
Seems like life would just be a series of non-guided self-sufficient decisions.
Which seems counterproductive in relation to the rest of the world that has to put up with your resource-wasting philosophy.

Why does it matter how I function if there is no good or bad?

This is what I am trying to say, ridiculing morality is absurd because we cannot function without it, and we cannot have an objective morality without a supreme being.

All of those are false statements, but believing in a deity that likely doesn't exist enables you to make such false statements.

Objective morality does not exist. Supreme beings in all likelihood do not exist. What you think or believe is irrelevant; it is a matter of people's rights and being able to live their lives without being discriminated against because of one trait that is beyond their control.

[Vaquas]

Once again, basic morality here.
How do you function without any concept whatsoever of good and bad?
Seems like life would just be a series of non-guided self-sufficient decisions.
Which seems counterproductive in relation to the rest of the world that has to put up with your resource-wasting philosophy.

Why does it matter how I function if there is no good or bad?

This is what I am trying to say, ridiculing morality is absurd because we cannot function without it, and we cannot have an objective morality without a supreme being.

I agree with the idea of a supreme being, but if this was the best way that you could present an argument regarding it, you have no business arguing in the name of Theism.

[Nature-Spirits]

Because "good" and "bad" are defined subjectively, and hey, it just so happens that most people have decided that happiness is "good" and oppression -- which leads to unhappiness -- is "bad". Who'd o' thunk it?

Now please, do tell: Why is your god good?

Before I answer that, what if I decide, based on my hatred of promiscuous people, that firebombing them is good? I would then not be incorrect, yes?

You know what? Fine; I'll indulge you, because I don't want this to turn into a petty "you answer my question first" shitfest.

Objectively, you would not be wrong, no. However, this would compromise others' wellbeing, and ultimately compromise society's wellbeing. Therefore, in the interest of maintaining a cohesive society that looks out for the people's wellbeing, it is wrong.

This is what I am trying to say, ridiculing morality is absurd because we cannot function without it, and we cannot have an objective morality without a supreme being.

I'm afraid you don't quite understand how morality works. It's not some "metaphysical" thing that exists, somewhere in the universe. It's a tool. Humans invented it a long time ago so that we could have cohesive societies. Why? Because having cohesive societies makes it more likely for us to survive -- "strength in numbers", and all that. Why do we want to survive? Because that desire is hardwired into pretty much every lifeform we know of. And we're not quite at the point where we can completely rewrite our hardware.

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

There is no good or bad. Just desirable or undesirable.

Tell that to the Oxford English Dictionary.

The words good n bad exist. The concepts only exist because of religion. The fact is, in reality, there is no objective moral good or objective moral bad. All we can do is look at what causes the most tangible harm - undesirable - and what causes the most tangible benefit - desirable.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) It's not meant to be scientific, I'm not trying to prove anything.
2) Why, though? I used to think that too, but I just can't believe that anymore.
3) Subconscious influence of the common culture.

1) You're not trying to prove the basis for all of your arguments?

Well, I guess we can all pack up, then!

2) Because it makes people happy. And if we have to exist in this universe for the duration of our lives, why not try to be as happy as we can?

3) Alright, that's a decent argument. But how do we know that your morality comes from a supreme being? And why are there so many mutually exclusive supreme beings with all these conflicting, supposedly absolute moralities?

I don't want to get much farther off the topic than we already are, so I will try in this post to link back to LGBT rights.

1) I'm not, I'm just putting them out there.

2) But why should we? That is where I get a hang-up about LGBT rights, I can't think of a reason to support them that trumps my fundamental beliefs.

3) You don't, I don't presume to know for sure. I think basic principles have to be taken on faith alone, and I think all people do this subconsciously. Things like self-preservation, etc.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why does it matter how I function if there is no good or bad?

This is what I am trying to say, ridiculing morality is absurd because we cannot function without it, and we cannot have an objective morality without a supreme being.

All of those are false statements, but believing in a deity that likely doesn't exist enables you to make such false statements.

Objective morality does not exist. Supreme beings in all likelihood do not exist. What you think or believe is irrelevant; it is a matter of people's rights and being able to live their lives without being discriminated against because of one trait that is beyond their control.

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

All of those are false statements, but believing in a deity that likely doesn't exist enables you to make such false statements.

Objective morality does not exist. Supreme beings in all likelihood do not exist. What you think or believe is irrelevant; it is a matter of people's rights and being able to live their lives without being discriminated against because of one trait that is beyond their control.

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

Why should we care if religion was banned?

[The V O I D]

All of those are false statements, but believing in a deity that likely doesn't exist enables you to make such false statements.

Objective morality does not exist. Supreme beings in all likelihood do not exist. What you think or believe is irrelevant; it is a matter of people's rights and being able to live their lives without being discriminated against because of one trait that is beyond their control.

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

Would you like it or care if I were suddenly declared absolute leader of the world, and my first act was to ban Orthodoxy completely and have you arrested/intervened upon and your "holy book" and church destroyed and burned?

The feeling you get when someone wants to do that to you is the same feeling others get when you try to tell them how to live their lives based on your morality.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

Why should we care if religion was banned?

Why should you?

[Nature-Spirits]

1) You're not trying to prove the basis for all of your arguments?

Well, I guess we can all pack up, then!

2) Because it makes people happy. And if we have to exist in this universe for the duration of our lives, why not try to be as happy as we can?

3) Alright, that's a decent argument. But how do we know that your morality comes from a supreme being? And why are there so many mutually exclusive supreme beings with all these conflicting, supposedly absolute moralities?

I don't want to get much farther off the topic than we already are, so I will try in this post to link back to LGBT rights.

1) I'm not, I'm just putting them out there.

2) But why should we? That is where I get a hang-up about LGBT rights, I can't think of a reason to support them that trumps my fundamental beliefs.

3) You don't, I don't presume to know for sure. I think basic principles have to be taken on faith alone, and I think all people do this subconsciously. Things like self-preservation, etc.

1) Well, at least you admit your arguments have no basis.

2) Why should we try to be happy? Because we only have so long to live, and happiness is a pleasurable sensation. No point in wasting your time with things that are harmful. Humans want what any animal wants: to be gratified.

And again: I don't care if you support LGBT rights. Just, please, stop actively opposing them.

3) ... Honestly, I can't even decipher what you're trying to argue at this point.

[Vaquas]

All of those are false statements, but believing in a deity that likely doesn't exist enables you to make such false statements.

Objective morality does not exist. Supreme beings in all likelihood do not exist. What you think or believe is irrelevant; it is a matter of people's rights and being able to live their lives without being discriminated against because of one trait that is beyond their control.

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

This loop is ridiculous.
Bottom line is, there is no logical reason, and there are very few legitimate spiritual reasons, that someone should actively oppose Gay Rights.
Its really not that hard.
You aren't necessarily a bad person for believing otherwise, you just have very limited ground to stand on.

[Nature-Spirits]

Why should we care if religion was banned?

Why should you?

Because when everyone has rights and no one faces dicrimination, everyone's happy! Yay, fun times! Maybe we can be not-miserable before we fizzle out of existence!

[Xadufell]

Why should I care if people are able to live their lives without being discriminated against?!

Why should we care if religion was banned?

I dunno, because preventing people to believe something is kinda like what Hitler and others did?

Or... Y'know it could create a huge civil rights issue?

But no, you're all for civil rights.

[Renewed Imperial Germany-]

Why should we care if religion was banned?

I dunno, because preventing people to believe something is kinda like what Hitler and others did?

Or... Y'know it could create a huge civil rights issue?

But no, you're all for civil rights.

I mean. If ya kinda read the thread you'd noticed it was a rhetorical bit.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Why should we care if religion was banned?

I dunno, because preventing people to believe something is kinda like what Hitler and others did?

Or... Y'know it could create a huge civil rights issue?

But no, you're all for civil rights.

>The point



>Your head