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LGBT Rights & Issues Thread, V4

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Kyrusia
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LGBT Rights & Issues Thread, V4

Postby Kyrusia » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:39 pm

This is the mod-sanctioned LGBT (etc.) thread designed for discussion of:

A) The struggle of non-heterosexual people to achieve equality in society; or the struggle to establish or re-establish heterosexuality as the legally-sanctioned norm for society

B) specific instances of these struggles (court cases and decisions);

C) progress and set-backs in these processes (US states legitimizing same-sex marriage or banning it).

The Moderation team have been concerned at the extent to which recent threads on this subject have tended to turn into one great big troll/flamebait fest faster than you say “Jack Robinson.” It's our hope that by starting a mod-sanctioned thread we can slow this tendency down (even if we can't entirely stop it), and encourage a more civil debate between different perspectives.

We will treat this thread with similar stringent conditions to those we use for US Presidential election threads:

In addition to the usual rules regarding no flaming, no baiting, and no trolling, we we also rigidly enforce no mocking nicknames, and no gloating.

There are three other rulings specific to this thread:

1) Referring to non-heterosexual persons as mentally ill or equating not being heterosexual as akin to being a pedophile will - in most cases - bring us down on you like a ton of bricks.

2) Deliberately misgendering people who have declared their preferred personal pronoun will make the ton of bricks look like a ton of feathers.

3) Discussions of religious prohibitions on non-heterosexual behavior will be tolerated to the extent that they do not evolve into general discussions of religions or a particular religion. Everything said above about how trolling and flaming non-heterosexuals applies equally to trolling and flaming religious people.

CLAIMS SHOULD BE SOURCED. But specifically note the following.... Wikipedia is an acceptable source; as are major media outlets, regardless of their perceived bias or lack thereof. Noting that a major media outlet has a particular orientation is valid; squabbling over whether a particular source is valid or not simply on the basis of its political orientation is strongly discouraged. Disagreeing with Wiki or a major media outlet is absolutely fine, but counterclaims should also be sourced.

If we find that people are exploiting loopholes in the above rulings, or coming up with new ways of insulting each other that are specific to this topic, we reserve the right to edit this OP to address these accordingly.

We encourage you to be polite to each other. We appreciate that this is a topic over which people have strong feelings - but this is no excuse to be rude. And yes, this is mod-sanctioned despite the lack of a Mod owning the OP.

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Last edited by Kyrusia on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Flutterlands
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Postby The Flutterlands » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:42 pm

Tagged for later and observation. :)
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Postby The V O I D » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:43 pm

Hello, again, friends!

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:44 pm

Thanks for putting this up, Ky.
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Postby Greater Orensta » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:44 pm

New thread smell! Beautiful!
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:46 pm

Greater Orensta wrote:New thread smell! Beautiful!

The smell... is wonderful. Let's be honest, I think this thread needs more rainbows!
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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:47 pm

The Flutterlands wrote:Tagged for later and observation. :)

Aren't we just supposed to use the bookmark?
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:48 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
The Flutterlands wrote:Tagged for later and observation. :)

Aren't we just supposed to use the bookmark?

Yes.
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The Flutterlands
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Postby The Flutterlands » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:49 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:Aren't we just supposed to use the bookmark?

Yes.

Eh... :oops:
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Postby Socialist Nordia » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:54 pm

Horay, a new thread.

Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ is a choice.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html

Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.
Last edited by Socialist Nordia on Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:55 pm

Socialist Nordia wrote:Horay, a new thread.

Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ isn't a choice.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html

Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.

Oh look another one of these...You could just cite any of the numerous ones that have existed for sometime.
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
You can't fight the friction
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Everyone belongs in the kitchen
Kitchen has food
I have brought dishonor to my gaming clan
Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

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The Archregimancy wrote:
Hagia Sophia is best church.

Major-Tom wrote:Why am I full of apathy?

I'm just here to be the peanut gallery
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Postby Greater Orensta » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:56 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Greater Orensta wrote:New thread smell! Beautiful!

The smell... is wonderful. Let's be honest, I think this thread needs more rainbows!

And subtle hugging and kissing of the same genders!
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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:02 pm

Socialist Nordia wrote:Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ isn't a choice.
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html
Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.

*is a choice.
Anyone who seriously thinks that is a fucking moron. If it were a choice, I sure as fuck wouldn't be gay.
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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:08 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
Socialist Nordia wrote:Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ isn't a choice.
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html
Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.

*is a choice.
Anyone who seriously thinks that is a fucking moron. If it were a choice, I sure as fuck wouldn't be gay.

Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
You can't fight the friction
Women belong in the kitchen
Men belong in the kitchen
Everyone belongs in the kitchen
Kitchen has food
I have brought dishonor to my gaming clan
Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

Marethian Lupanar of Teladre wrote:A bright and cheerful mountain village of chapel-goers~

The Archregimancy wrote:
Hagia Sophia is best church.

Major-Tom wrote:Why am I full of apathy?

I'm just here to be the peanut gallery
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:21 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
The Princes of the Universe wrote:*is a choice.
Anyone who seriously thinks that is a fucking moron. If it were a choice, I sure as fuck wouldn't be gay.

Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why?

That question alone should be plenty proof that it isn't a choice.
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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:23 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
The Princes of the Universe wrote:*is a choice.
Anyone who seriously thinks that is a fucking moron. If it were a choice, I sure as fuck wouldn't be gay.

Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why in the hell would you want that? :blink:
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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:24 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why?

That question alone should be plenty proof that it isn't a choice.


At least you aren't someone who claims it has to be a choice. I may not agree with you on most things, but at least we can agree with the facts where "choice" is concerned.

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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:27 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
Socialist Nordia wrote:Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ isn't a choice.
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html
Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.

*is a choice.
Anyone who seriously thinks that is a fucking moron. If it were a choice, I sure as fuck wouldn't be gay.

I mean, the logic is counter-intuitive. If being gay is a choice, then being straight is a choice as well. If that were the case, wouldn't all "gay" people have just switched to being "straight" and moved on with their lives?

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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:28 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why in the hell would you want that? :blink:

women
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
You can't fight the friction
Women belong in the kitchen
Men belong in the kitchen
Everyone belongs in the kitchen
Kitchen has food
I have brought dishonor to my gaming clan
Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

Marethian Lupanar of Teladre wrote:A bright and cheerful mountain village of chapel-goers~

The Archregimancy wrote:
Hagia Sophia is best church.

Major-Tom wrote:Why am I full of apathy?

I'm just here to be the peanut gallery
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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:29 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why?

That question alone should be plenty proof that it isn't a choice.

I dont follow?
Galloism wrote:Or we can go with feminism doesn't exist. We all imagined it. Collectively.
You can't fight the friction
Women belong in the kitchen
Men belong in the kitchen
Everyone belongs in the kitchen
Kitchen has food
I have brought dishonor to my gaming clan
Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

Marethian Lupanar of Teladre wrote:A bright and cheerful mountain village of chapel-goers~

The Archregimancy wrote:
Hagia Sophia is best church.

Major-Tom wrote:Why am I full of apathy?

I'm just here to be the peanut gallery
уσυ нανєи'т gσт тнє fυℓℓ єffє¢т

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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:29 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
The Princes of the Universe wrote:Why in the hell would you want that? :blink:

women

Why not just go aro/ace and be done with it?
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Anywhere Else But Here
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Postby Anywhere Else But Here » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:29 pm

The V O I D wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Why?

That question alone should be plenty proof that it isn't a choice.


At least you aren't someone who claims it has to be a choice. I may not agree with you on most things, but at least we can agree with the facts where "choice" is concerned.

Though it does make his persecution fantasies even more abhorrent.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:35 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Why?

That question alone should be plenty proof that it isn't a choice.

I dont follow?

How could it possibly in someone's interest to be gay?

You'd have to put up with bigots, you'd make your potential partner list much shorter, you'd have a higher risk of AIDS, etc.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:36 pm

Socialist Nordia wrote:Horay, a new thread.

Anyway, a paper was published recently, claiming that being LGBTQ isn't a choice.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -fall-2016

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... again.html

Certainly breaking from the many others in this field. How do people feel about this? I personally think this was a politically motivated paper, contrary to what other scientists have claimed to be true.

I already see so many statements made by the article which according to current medical understanding have already been proven false...and I'm in the first paragraph of the article. For example, "Gender dysphoria — a sense of incongruence between one’s biological sex and one’s gender, accompanied by clinically significant distress or impairment — is sometimes treated in adults by hormones or surgery, but there is little scientific evidence that these therapeutic interventions have psychological benefits."

This is not necessarily true that it causes distress. The DSM-5 does not necessarily state that Gender Dysphoria need be distressing, but that this strong desire and incongruence be present for at least 6 months consistently. In addition, hormone therapy and sex reasignment surgery, as well as presenting and being accepted as one's gender, has already been shown in the Guidelines to be extremely positive in terms of their psychological benefits.

So yeah. Its just another article by a rather notoriously anti-LGBT+ indiviudal His sources in the article included
sources which engaged in “psychosocial treatments to help them embrace the gender corresponding with their biological sex”, or conversion therapy, which is not considered medically ethical. In addition he also quotes that good old fashioned article from Sweden about post-op transgender suicide, which actually shows suicide going down after SRS, but is still a rallying cry for anti-trans individuals because its still much higher than the average population.

Finally, we need to understand the publisher, in order to get a proper viewpoint from which ideologically this study will use as a position of bias. One of the main publishers is the [url=
Included sources which engaged in “psychosocial treatments to help them embrace the gender corresponding with their biological sex”, or conversion therapy, which is not considered medically ethical.

In addition he also quotes that good old fashioned article from Sweden about post-op transgender suicide, which actually shows suicide going down after SRS, but is still a rallying cry for anti-trans individuals because its still much higher than the average population.

Finally, we need to understand the publisher, in order to get a proper viewpoint from which ideologically this study will use as a position of bias. One of the main publishers is the Ethics and Public Policy Center, which describes itself as the “premier institute dedicated to applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy.” Ethics and Public Policy Center, which describes itself as the “premier institute dedicated to applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy.”

So this source, states an explicit bias in the manner in which it conducts its studies, and that must be considered.

Overall, firstly, we must understand this is one study. A study is not necessarily a basis for an opinion in of itself, but rather it is important to look at medical and psychological guidelines, which are compendiums of all the current understanding of an issue. Overall, the Guidelinescurrently in use both refute and contradict this one report.

In addition, the guidelines specifically state that one's gender identity, as with one's sexuality, is experienced with a lack of choice, and I can say personally that my experience is in line with this.
Last edited by Noraika on Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:44 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:Honestly if it was a choice I'd be very tempted to be gay.

Why in the hell would you want that? :blink:

Bisexual or Pansexual seem like the obvious choices to me. That's just giving yourself options.
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