Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[New Owca]

Have you ever realised people use humour to get through bad times? You're too bloody sensitive...

Humor about a horrible event, when it is used as a means of coping, or outlook, has to actually do those things. Alt right memes aren't about coping with trauma, or knocking the person who inflicted it down a peg. They're taking an oppressed group and making them the butt of a joke. Its pretty pathetic really.

Now, are these jokes the end of the world? No, of course not. But to get back to the topic of the thread, they contribute to a culture, where we're at the very least desensitized to something. And eventually its gonna become subconsciously acceptable. When we talk about rape culture we aren't talking about people trying to make rape legal or any nonsense like that. We're talking about people making excuses, blaming victims, all sorts of things.

Yeah, it is pretty crappy, but who am I to tell someone else what they can and cannot find funny? For example, I'm not a big fan of Frankie Boyle, but some people absolutely love him. The point is, its a joke and its a reactive, not proactive thing.

On a side note, Holocaust Jokes are pretty outdated Anne Frankly not very funny anymore. What? Did you nazi that coming? I find these puns Hitlarious.

[MERIZoC]

Charming level of debate.

[Chikyo]

This is the entire world.

Patriarchal structure is a family by family choice now. A woman can be the bread winner if the family so chooses it. Strike one. double standard on virginity is stupid and I will explain why. It is personal preference by both parties their own sexual activities. It is a personal choice what a person looks for in a partner and sexual activity is counted by some, again personal choice. Strike two. Women are as fluid as any man in our modern world if they so choose to prioritize it just as a man would have to prioritize his work before anything else to move in social status. Strike three, now catch up.

Oh as a side note this is not the whole world you can go to iran and get yourself a burka for you or your slav,,,I mean wife.

[New Owca]

Charming level of debate.

I know, its pretty childish. Normally I'm more mature, I swear!
Sometimes I just think everyone should lighten up and grow thicker skin. Someone says something ofrensive? You dont uave to laugh at it. You can even say "Cut that shit out". But its not worth more than a raised eyebrow, really

[The Brand New Salvatagard Republic]

Genghis Khan rapped the thousands of women because they were War Prizes. And yes there was. It was fairly common for people to be rapped during Genghis Khan's time.

[New Owca]

Genghis Khan rapped the thousands of women because they were War Prizes. And yes there was. It was fairly common for people to be rapped during Genghis Khan's time.

Genghis Khan also fielded female warriors. Rape is about power, not sex ^-^

[Arkolon]

Patriarchal structure is a family by family choice now. A woman can be the bread winner if the family so chooses it. Strike one. double standard on virginity is stupid and I will explain why. It is personal preference by both parties their own sexual activities. It is a personal choice what a person looks for in a partner and sexual activity is counted by some, again personal choice. Strike two. Women are as fluid as any man in our modern world if they so choose to prioritize it just as a man would have to prioritize his work before anything else to move in social status. Strike three, now catch up.

Oh as a side note this is not the whole world you can go to iran and get yourself a burka for you or your slav,,,I mean wife.

I think you are misunderstanding the fundamental difference between how a culture acts (or rather, helps guide to act) and how an individual relations act as individual microcosms in a wider society. Some individuals touch kids or vape, but that doesn't make them culturally-accepted trends for a variety of reasons. Also the fluidity of male social structure had more to do with male competitiveness, especially aggressiveness between males, in the competition for mates, rather than male/female inequality.

[New Owca]

Patriarchal structure is a family by family choice now. A woman can be the bread winner if the family so chooses it. Strike one. double standard on virginity is stupid and I will explain why. It is personal preference by both parties their own sexual activities. It is a personal choice what a person looks for in a partner and sexual activity is counted by some, again personal choice. Strike two. Women are as fluid as any man in our modern world if they so choose to prioritize it just as a man would have to prioritize his work before anything else to move in social status. Strike three, now catch up.

Oh as a side note this is not the whole world you can go to iran and get yourself a burka for you or your slav,,,I mean wife.

I think you are misunderstanding the fundamental difference between how a culture acts (or rather, helps guide to act) and how an individual relations act as individual microcosms in a wider society. Some individuals touch kids or vape, but that doesn't make them culturally-accepted trends for a variety of reasons. Also the fluidity of male social structure had more to do with male competitiveness, especially aggressiveness between males, in the competition for mates, rather than male/female inequality.

What is this fluidity of social structure of which you speak? Is it a myth, like Patriarchy? Or is it Jargon that I'm not feminist enough to understamd?

[New Edom]

I'd say so. I'm a straight, white male in a comfortable social strata so for a long time I could only consider violence against women something that is rare or far from our Western world, but after growing up, meeting women and getting out of my bubble I've come to notice that there is a real culture of male violence that's absolutely tolerated, if not culturally encouraged. Women aren't scared in a cowardly way, but they have every right to be fearful, since our Western cultural norms glorify machism and female submission. I'll be hopeful and say this never, or very rarely ever happens in the bubble where I am, and coincidentally where many NSers find themselves, but otherwise the fact that there are somethings women who walk streets alone have to get used to is scathing evidence enough, to me, to say there is a 'rape culture' in the way feminists use the term.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but you seem to be saying that you grew up in a very safe and environment, then noticed some aspects of modern cuulture that you find disturbing, and notice that there are people in particular who seem victimized by it, and that there's an ideology that explains it. So you accept what you've had presented to you.

But there's a few questions I'd ask if I were you.

1. What if it's not cultural but biological? Some social tendencies are hard to separate from biological responses. A good example is a crowd panicking. Visceral gut respnses tend to be biological and they influence society more than society influences it.

2. What if the cultural influences are actually intended to curb the biological tendencies?

And from another angle altogether:
1. What if the rape culture analysis doesn't take into account people's experiences outside of a stated norm? (ie that it inordinantly affects women)

2. What if the rape cullture analysis doesn't take into account the demographic of people who are actually committing acts of rape? (for instance as some say 3% of men on campuses actually rape, and those are often repeat offenders with other criminal issues or socipathic bheaviour patterns)

3. What if it is less a cultural issue and more of an issue with how ably communities and organizations deal with the crimes in question?

[Chikyo]

What is this fluidity of social structure of which you speak? Is it a myth, like Patriarchy? Or is it Jargon that I'm not feminist enough to understamd?(sic)

Fluidity of social structure is the ability to both move up and down in social order by means of things like family, education, drive, and chance. I am saying that it is already even in most first world countries for both genders. (the side of an anti-feminist movement on the grounds that we are already equal if they so choose to be) The other guy is fighting an argument that has no defined stance or written support and by my eye needs to go back to editing before he just spits words out of his keyboard.

[New Owca]

What is this fluidity of social structure of which you speak? Is it a myth, like Patriarchy? Or is it Jargon that I'm not feminist enough to understamd?(sic)

Fluidity of social structure is the ability to both move up and down in social order by means of things like family, education, drive, and chance. I am saying that it is already even in most first world countries for both genders. (the side of an anti-feminist movement on the grounds that we are already equal if they so choose to be) The other guy is fighting an argument that has no defined stance or written support and by my eye needs to go back to editing before he just spits words out of his keyboard.

Oh, I agree, then ^-^
Its perfectly possible for a woman to go up in the "social spectrum" with enough drive and motive. And sacrifice. We all have to make sacrifices. Sometimes ritual sacrifices.

[Arkolon]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but you seem to be saying that you grew up in a very safe and environment, then noticed some aspects of modern cuulture that you find disturbing, and notice that there are people in particular who seem victimized by it, and that there's an ideology that explains it. So you accept what you've had presented to you.

I wouldn't say that - I know how annoying some people get when they yell strawman and leave things there, so I'll answer the questions anyway even if this premise isn't correct.

1. What if it's not cultural but biological? Some social tendencies are hard to separate from biological responses. A good example is a crowd panicking. Visceral gut respnses tend to be biological and they influence society more than society influences it.

It isn't biological because not all men take part in it. As I said most people in the well-off, white community I come from wouldn't do the things I find aggressive or violent against women - or, at least, they would do it more passively.

1. What if the rape culture analysis doesn't take into account people's experiences outside of a stated norm? (ie that it inordinantly affects women)

Yes, and All Lives Matter too, I suppose.

2. What if the rape cullture analysis doesn't take into account the demographic of people who are actually committing acts of rape? (for instance as some say 3% of men on campuses actually rape, and those are often repeat offenders with other criminal issues or socipathic bheaviour patterns)

You'll notice I never actually got around to actual rape, just the spectrum of violence against women, which I think is more important and is what is usually meant by 'rape culture'.

3. What if it is less a cultural issue and more of an issue with how ably communities and organizations deal with the crimes in question?

You'll have to define 'it' at this point, it's becoming too vague.

[Arkolon]

What is this fluidity of social structure of which you speak? Is it a myth, like Patriarchy? Or is it Jargon that I'm not feminist enough to understamd?(sic)

Fluidity of social structure is the ability to both move up and down in social order by means of things like family, education, drive, and chance. I am saying that it is already even in most first world countries for both genders. (the side of an anti-feminist movement on the grounds that we are already equal if they so choose to be) The other guy is fighting an argument that has no defined stance or written support and by my eye needs to go back to editing before he just spits words out of his keyboard.

We're all legally equals and female primates usually prefer males higher up the social ladder, so in a very fluid social ladder males can (and do) get aggressive with each other since they're competing in a hierarchy. Gym culture, lad culture, drugs and crime are instances of this. You just butted into an argument halfway through, misconstrued one of the points I was making and turned it into your own, and now you're telling me my points don't make sense with yours. What a surprise.

[Individual Thought Patterns]

Not in the Western world.

[New Owca]

Fluidity of social structure is the ability to both move up and down in social order by means of things like family, education, drive, and chance. I am saying that it is already even in most first world countries for both genders. (the side of an anti-feminist movement on the grounds that we are already equal if they so choose to be) The other guy is fighting an argument that has no defined stance or written support and by my eye needs to go back to editing before he just spits words out of his keyboard.

We're all legally equals and female primates usually prefer males higher up the social ladder, so in a very fluid social ladder males can (and do) get aggressive with each other since they're competing in a hierarchy. Gym culture, lad culture, drugs and crime are instances of this. You just butted into an argument halfway through, misconstrued one of the points I was making and turned it into your own, and now you're telling me my points don't make sense with yours. What a surprise.

But, and trust me, I HATE saying this, not every man engages in that kind of environment. And I must hasten to point out drugs and crime are often indulged in by those in stressful situations.

So for clarities sake, what are gym and lad culture in your words? I ask this because cultureis such a vague term and it helps me understand you bettr.

And I'm sorry if I butted in.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is such a thing as rape culture. It effects both sexes.

[New Edom]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but you seem to be saying that you grew up in a very safe and environment, then noticed some aspects of modern cuulture that you find disturbing, and notice that there are people in particular who seem victimized by it, and that there's an ideology that explains it. So you accept what you've had presented to you.

I wouldn't say that - I know how annoying some people get when they yell strawman and leave things there, so I'll answer the questions anyway even if this premise isn't correct.

1. What if it's not cultural but biological? Some social tendencies are hard to separate from biological responses. A good example is a crowd panicking. Visceral gut respnses tend to be biological and they influence society more than society influences it.

It isn't biological because not all men take part in it. As I said most people in the well-off, white community I come from wouldn't do the things I find aggressive or violent against women - or, at least, they would do it more passively.

1. What if the rape culture analysis doesn't take into account people's experiences outside of a stated norm? (ie that it inordinantly affects women)

Yes, and All Lives Matter too, I suppose.

2. What if the rape cullture analysis doesn't take into account the demographic of people who are actually committing acts of rape? (for instance as some say 3% of men on campuses actually rape, and those are often repeat offenders with other criminal issues or socipathic bheaviour patterns)

You'll notice I never actually got around to actual rape, just the spectrum of violence against women, which I think is more important and is what is usually meant by 'rape culture'.

3. What if it is less a cultural issue and more of an issue with how ably communities and organizations deal with the crimes in question?

You'll have to define 'it' at this point, it's becoming too vague.

Women who abuse others, rape others and are in a position to generally engage in violence or sexual misconduct tend to go un-analyzed by feminists. That's what I mean by people who fall outside the usual analysis. The abuse of children by women is a serious issue. While some say it falls below numbers of children abused by men, even 20% is a very serious number considering how many children get abused. Since women are less likely to be profiled due to stereotyping it makes investigation of it very important. Add to that the issue of abuses taking place by women against the elderly, invalids and other women, and you have a demographic almost entirely neglected by most feminists, who tend to draw all their attention towards the victimization of men against women.

I come from a different background than you acording to your previous post. Violence was normal and men and women engaged in it. People were not very sheltered. So your experience may be valid for your background but not for mine. No one was completely safe walking home at night, it was perfectly reasonable to talk about taking precautions, going with companions and so on. I have also been around more stable middle clas areas and they struck me as very different.

[New Owca]

There is such a thing as rape culture. It effects both sexes.

Evidence and definition, please.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is such a thing as rape culture. It effects both sexes.

Evidence and definition, please.

For men, there's rape culture in the form of finding it amusing that men are raped, blaming them for their own rape, etc.

For women, it's less mainstream and less accepted, but victim blaming exists in pockets.

I would not say our society has rape culture as a norm against women, but it does exist. View it more like "anime culture" and you might see it.

"Rape sub-culture" may be more accurate.

[Agerland]

Genghis Khan rapped the thousands of women because they were War Prizes. And yes there was. It was fairly common for people to be rapped during Genghis Khan's time.

Genghis Khan also fielded female warriors. Rape is about power, not sex ^-^

That's not only wrong, it's nonsensical.

[Estruia]

Genghis Khan also fielded female warriors. Rape is about power, not sex ^-^

That's not only wrong, it's nonsensical.

Except, it's both? Rape is an exertion of power over another, expressed through sexual domination.

[Des-Bal]

It's hard to have a thing and not have a culture surrounding the thing. We have a culture that presumes rapists are men and rape victims are women, that otherizes victims of rape, and encourages reliance on dishonest portrayals among many other things. What I don't think we have is a culture surrounding rape that implies men should be allowed to rape women. Further I don't think classifying something as rape culture that is not unique to rape is helpful in building a definition. Saying that joking about rape or questioning a rape victim's honesty are rape culture doesn't make sense because both of those things happen regardless of whether or not rape is the issue.

[Costa Fierro]

Western society does not promote or have contained in it a prevalent rape culture against women. Women who are raped are taken very seriously by the courts and whoever raped them is usually given a suitable sentence.

However, using the Wikipedia definition provided by the OP, let's see whether or not it applies to men:

In feminist theory, rape culture is a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists. There is disagreement over what defines rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to exhibit rape culture.

So is rape of men pervasive? According to personal surveys, men are raped almost as often as women.
Does society normalize it? Yes. A rape of a man is not seen as something that is particularly heinous nor is it taken seriously by the authorities.
Is this normalization down to societal attitudes towards sex, gender and sexuality? It is. Feminists claim that men cannot be raped because men hold a "privileged" position in society, because they power over women in terms of physical strength and that society seems to value the opinion of a man more than it does women. This attitude, coupled with the pervasive notion that men can't be raped because men always want sex and therefore any man who is raped was "asking for it", looks very much like the definition of a rape culture.

So there we have it. Yes, there is a rape culture but it does not apply to women.

[Stojam]

Rape culture is totally nonsense, how come Rape become Culture now? 3rd Wave Feminists just make it up totally, Rape can happen to both sides, Men and Women, Rape is bad and should be fought, but Rape cases are quite rare, it will not become a Culture just because some Feminists say it, Just 20% of Women are raped, the others are 80% are the ones who are not raped.

[Quokkastan]

Rape culture is totally nonsense, how come Rape become Culture now? 3rd Wave Feminists just make it up totally, Rape can happen to both sides, Men and Women, Rape is bad and should be fought, but Rape cases are quite rare, it will not become a Culture just because some Feminists say it.

You may want to learn what is meant by the term before commenting on it. The definition of rape culture was provided in the opening post of this thread and is accurate.

You can dispute whether the society you live in meets the qualifications of a rape culture, but the concept itself is valid. There are societies that very overtly normalize and trivialize rape. Both historically and in the modern world. Ancient Rome or modern Yemen, for instance, are very obvious examples. Another example might be cultural attitudes towards prison rape in the United States. You'll note that this last one deals mainly with men, so it's not an exclusively Feminist issue, even if they do bring it up a lot.

Just 20% of Women are raped, the others are 80% are the ones who are not raped

...okay. Well, as long as just one in five women have been horribly violated, I guess that's alright then.