Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[The Alexanderians]

Actually, most men who are raped are raped outside of prison by women, and men and women are raped at roughly equal rates year to year - at least among adults.

Among those below 18, that's a much harder question.

That's absurd. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex abuse.

Unbiased and trustworthy sources are in your arsenal I take it?

[New Edom]

While it may not be as prevalent as some would make it seem, rape is still a very serious problem that our society is still dealing with. Whether we want to admit it or not, we have a culture that promotes sexually-dominant masculinity, which leads to a "I won't take no for an answer" mentality amongst a certain percentage of 20-something males in clubs, bars, parties, etc., that DOES lead to an alarmingly high rape/sexual assault-related crime rate (anything above zero is alarmingly high and inexcusable.)

I agree that anything above zero is alarmingly high.

However Im not sure I agree with the above. It strikes me as a lot more complicated than that.

There's actually a lot of pressure on young men to prove their sexual competence with women, and I would argue that a large part of that is biological. Almost any social creature where there is male to female sexual dimorphism you're likely to have competition in mating. Generally women in Western civilization expect men to be able to demonstrate certain qualities which may be hard to demonstrate as we are fairly safe and law abiding comnpared ot other civilizations in history. So how do you demonstrate courage, resource gathering, social dominance? Anyone who doesn't think it is normal to need to, however subtly, is fooling themselves.

Add to that culture clash betwen male and female culture. Women tend to be more subtle than men, and they also SEEM friendlier and mroe welcoming than they are because they tend to demonstrate displays that seem more so than men do with one another. Men tend to generally challenge one another and friends tend to be comrades. With women, we're still adjusting to accepting women as work and resource competition as well as potential mates. Ive seen this so often--a woman smiles at a man, acts a certain way around a man, he thinks she's attracted to him when she's actually not. By contrast the woman thinks the man is a lot more confident than he actually feels because he behaves in ways that would seem very confident to her. I'm generalizing a lot but I'm sure you get the idea.

Both men and women seem to bring a lot to their game in the whole mating dance. A lot of their actions have taken place before they even met anyone, now they put it to the test. For both, a lot is riding on this--are they socially acceptable, attractive, effective? Alcohol or drugs fuels the confidence for each, and their cultures and biological impulses clash. Problems resulting from this kind of intensity is inevitable.

I think it's important that we talk about consent, and I actually wish it was more in depth and better conversation. I often feel that when I have observed a seminar or teaching demonstration on it that it is just scratching the surface, and I find that frustrating. Because what I wish people would admit is that it is actually hard. A lot of our own ritual s and customs surrounding men and women are little more than symbolism, and so of course it's hard to figure out.

[Equalaria]

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

I'm saying the parralell between prison rape and rape in the regular population do not equate. Of course nobody should be raped, but the rape culture affects women far more than it has or does men. Trying to drum sympathy for prisoners rape does not speak to the fact that a large subset of the unconvicted female population is assaulted.

[Galloism]

Actually, most men who are raped are raped outside of prison by women, and men and women are raped at roughly equal rates year to year - at least among adults.

Among those below 18, that's a much harder question.

That's absurd. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex abuse.

Don't move the goalposts - we were talking about rape, not "sex abuse" - a much broader category.

Even "sex abuse" is not as disparate as you probably think.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... ss6308a1_e

In 2011, the CDC reported in the last 12 months, 1,929,000 women were raped, while 1,921,000 men were "made to penetrate" which, likely thanks to the sexist work of Mary Koss, was not considered rape, although it damn well should be. Whether an act constitutes rape or not should not depend on the gender of the perpetrator and victim.

Now, you head down to the other sexual violence categories and it's certainly more disparate - but not as much as you might think. 2,389,000 women were coerced sexually, compared with 1,495,000 men. 2,687,000 women suffered unwanted sexual contact, compared with 1,777,000 men. 4,046,000 women suffered noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, compared with 2,829,000 men.

It's all in the report.

[Equalaria]

That's absurd. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex abuse.

Unbiased and trustworthy sources are in your arsenal I take it?

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

[New Edom]

Is there really a rape culture?

Wikipedia says: "In feminist theory, rape culture is a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists. There is disagreement over what defines rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to exhibit rape culture."

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

In several episodes of the show "Veep" we see an interesting contrast. The character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus is groped by a man at one point and when it is referred to it is clearly an awful unpleasant incident. When a man is groped several times, by contrast, and is clearly disturbed by it (by another man) it is sort of presented as a serious issue by one or two characters but the majority of characters find it funny and it is played for a joke on the show. But this is normal.

[Chestaan]

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

I'm saying the parralell between prison rape and rape in the regular population do not equate. Of course nobody should be raped, but the rape culture affects women far more than it has or does men. Trying to drum sympathy for prisoners rape does not speak to the fact that a large subset of the unconvicted female population is assaulted.

If rape culture does or has ever existed then I think this poster must be the perfect example of someone who exemplifies it.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Unbiased and trustworthy sources are in your arsenal I take it?

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

That's some real outdated stuff, assuming it's even real.

[Neutraligon]

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

I'm saying the parralell between prison rape and rape in the regular population do not equate. Of course nobody should be raped, but the rape culture affects women far more than it has or does men. Trying to drum sympathy for prisoners rape does not speak to the fact that a large subset of the unconvicted female population is assaulted.

And yet you ignoring prison rape, or treating it as lesser, and you treating rape of men as lesser kinda goes to support my point. Even if women are raped more, rape culture exists because the rape of men is ignored or trivialized, like you are doing right now.

[Neutraligon]

That's absurd. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex abuse.

Don't move the goalposts - we were talking about rape, not "sex abuse" - a much broader category.

Even "sex abuse" is not as disparate as you probably think.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... ss6308a1_e

In 2011, the CDC reported in the last 12 months, 1,929,000 women were raped, while 1,921,000 men were "made to penetrate" which, likely thanks to the sexist work of Mary Koss, was not considered rape, although it damn well should be. Whether an act constitutes rape or not should not depend on the gender of the perpetrator and victim.

Now, you head down to the other sexual violence categories and it's certainly more disparate - but not as much as you might think. 2,389,000 women were coerced sexually, compared with 1,495,000 men. 2,687,000 women suffered unwanted sexual contact, compared with 1,777,000 men. 4,046,000 women suffered noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, compared with 2,829,000 men.

It's all in the report.

Wasn't it only recently that rape started to include made to penetrate? Before that the only way a man could be raped is by another man.

[Chestaan]

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

In several episodes of the show "Veep" we see an interesting contrast. The character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus is groped by a man at one point and when it is referred to it is clearly an awful unpleasant incident. When a man is groped several times, by contrast, and is clearly disturbed by it (by another man) it is sort of presented as a serious issue by one or two characters but the majority of characters find it funny and it is played for a joke on the show. But this is normal.

Have you ever seen the IT Crowd? There's an episode where one of the guys is sexually assaulted by a male masseuse (sorry, I can't remember which of the terms masseuse or masseur refers to men). Basically the main female character finds it hilarious.

Also, in Family Guy, Lois rapes Peter violently and it's portrayed as being absolutely hilarious.

[New Edom]

Unbiased and trustworthy sources are in your arsenal I take it?

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

Even if we accept that as true, generally our society has accepted the idea of women as victims in broader categories than historically accepted since the late 1970s. The same cannot be said for male victims. And certainly it cannot be said for any victims of women.

I should be clear here: I don't want to have women's shelters shut down, or take funding away from organizations for women or anything, but there are cities in N. America where there isn't ONE place for shelter for male survivors; there are places where it's hard to get even one therapist to help male victims. In my city there's exactly one men's resource center which acts as a shelter, counseling center and has a focus on male survivors of chldhood sexual abuse.

[Quokkastan]

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

In several episodes of the show "Veep" we see an interesting contrast. The character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus is groped by a man at one point and when it is referred to it is clearly an awful unpleasant incident. When a man is groped several times, by contrast, and is clearly disturbed by it (by another man) it is sort of presented as a serious issue by one or two characters but the majority of characters find it funny and it is played for a joke on the show. But this is normal.

We can hope that in 50 years watching that will be as uncomfortable as watching that one James Bond movie is today.

[The Alexanderians]

Unbiased and trustworthy sources are in your arsenal I take it?

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

1998 is an outdated source for anything except if you were perhaps making a report for rape in 1998. You provided no link, with spotty stats, and just a quote with no context. Try again. Plus I can't help but wonder if the website is using an actual definition of rape or the feminist definition of it. The latter of which ignores "forced to penetrate", given it's from 98 I wouldn't doubt it.

[Neutraligon]

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

Even if we accept that as true, generally our society has accepted the idea of women as victims in broader categories than historically accepted since the late 1970s. The same cannot be said for male victims. And certainly it cannot be said for any victims of women.

I should be clear here: I don't want to have women's shelters shut down, or take funding away from organizations for women or anything, but there are cities in N. America where there isn't ONE place for shelter for male survivors; there are places where it's hard to get even one therapist to help male victims. In my city there's exactly one men's resource center which acts as a shelter, counseling center and has a focus on male survivors of chldhood sexual abuse.

Which is what I consider rape culture. I do not see rape culture as exclusive to women. While I think there are still aspects of rape culture that women face, I think at this point men face higher instances of it.

[Wallenburg]

Not once in that post did they complain about the existence of this thread. How about you look for something other than strawmen to lean upon? Also:

I don't care to have arguments with people who are just insulting me. Including you.

I'm not insulting you. Learn to separate yourself from your argument.

[New Edom]

In several episodes of the show "Veep" we see an interesting contrast. The character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus is groped by a man at one point and when it is referred to it is clearly an awful unpleasant incident. When a man is groped several times, by contrast, and is clearly disturbed by it (by another man) it is sort of presented as a serious issue by one or two characters but the majority of characters find it funny and it is played for a joke on the show. But this is normal.

Have you ever seen the IT Crowd? There's an episode where one of the guys is sexually assaulted by a male masseuse (sorry, I can't remember which of the terms masseuse or masseur refers to men). Basically the main female character finds it hilarious.

Also, in Family Guy, Lois rapes Peter violently and it's portrayed as being absolutely hilarious.

Yeah this sort of thing is depicted as normal. There's also an episode of Family Guy where Peter tells Lois he was raped. (admittedly he stupidly thinks a prostate exam was rape, mostly because the doctor, who is a terrible doctor, does a terrible job of explaining it.) Lois laughs when she hears it. Granted it's Family Guy, but it's quite normal.

on other shows, men get slapped, kicked, punched, and humiliated, and it's played for comedy. I've noticed that if men ever complain about this they're accused of whining, including by the average feminist.

[Neutraligon]

"Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5"

"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5"

Rainn.org

1998 is an outdated source for anything except if you were perhaps making a report for rape in 1998. You provided no link, with spotty stats, and just a quote with no context. Try again. Plus I can't help but wonder if the website is using an actual definition of rape or the feminist definition of it. The latter of which ignores "forced to penetrate", given it's from 98 I wouldn't doubt it.

It does, unfortunately all statistics of that time would use the definition of rape that ignores forced to penetrate. It was only recently the definition was changed.

[New Edom]

Even if we accept that as true, generally our society has accepted the idea of women as victims in broader categories than historically accepted since the late 1970s. The same cannot be said for male victims. And certainly it cannot be said for any victims of women.

I should be clear here: I don't want to have women's shelters shut down, or take funding away from organizations for women or anything, but there are cities in N. America where there isn't ONE place for shelter for male survivors; there are places where it's hard to get even one therapist to help male victims. In my city there's exactly one men's resource center which acts as a shelter, counseling center and has a focus on male survivors of chldhood sexual abuse.

Which is what I consider rape culture. I do not see rape culture as exclusive to women. While I think there are still aspects of rape culture that women face, I think at this point men face higher instances of it.

If more feminists had this perspective they would not be facing the opposition they face. A lot of converts to anti-feminism are there because of this sort of issue.

[Wallenburg]

In several episodes of the show "Veep" we see an interesting contrast. The character played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus is groped by a man at one point and when it is referred to it is clearly an awful unpleasant incident. When a man is groped several times, by contrast, and is clearly disturbed by it (by another man) it is sort of presented as a serious issue by one or two characters but the majority of characters find it funny and it is played for a joke on the show. But this is normal.

Have you ever seen the IT Crowd? There's an episode where one of the guys is sexually assaulted by a male masseuse (sorry, I can't remember which of the terms masseuse or masseur refers to men). Basically the main female character finds it hilarious.

Also, in Family Guy, Lois rapes Peter violently and it's portrayed as being absolutely hilarious.

In Family Guy, Stewie brutally assaults Brian and it's portrayed as being absolutely hilarious. Your point? This scene from the IT Crowd might be indicative of something, but Family Guy tends to just make violence funny. It's a thing.

[Quokkastan]

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

I'm saying the parralell between prison rape and rape in the regular population do not equate. Of course nobody should be raped, but the rape culture affects women far more than it has or does men. Trying to drum sympathy for prisoners rape does not speak to the fact that a large subset of the unconvicted female population is assaulted.

Would you ever sentence someone to be raped?

And yet, we take it as a logical outcome of being convicted. We trivialize it. We make jokes about it. That is a better example of Rape Culture than anything else you'll find in the West this century.

[The Alexanderians]

1998 is an outdated source for anything except if you were perhaps making a report for rape in 1998. You provided no link, with spotty stats, and just a quote with no context. Try again. Plus I can't help but wonder if the website is using an actual definition of rape or the feminist definition of it. The latter of which ignores "forced to penetrate", given it's from 98 I wouldn't doubt it.

It does, unfortunately all statistics of that time would use the definition of rape that ignores forced to penetrate. It was only recently the definition was changed.

I would then consider gender based statistic before the change invalid. The ones of women specifically would still be valid I imagine (for reported rape atleast) but the ones for men hold absolutely no meaning then.

[Chairman Cities]

This Question Can Be Answered By Looking At The News And All These Shows That Depict SUCH.

[New Edom]

It does, unfortunately all statistics of that time would use the definition of rape that ignores forced to penetrate. It was only recently the definition was changed.

I would then consider gender based statistic before the change invalid. The ones of women specifically would still be valid I imagine (for reported rape atleast) but the ones for men hold absolutely no meaning then.

I kind of agree though I think it's important to also focus on the fact that any is too many, and that rare when people are referring to hundreds of thousands or millions of people is a poor point to make. (RFI's point earlier for instance) If one case of SARS can alarm a whole health region, surely discussions of sexual abuse, molestation, rape etc can deal with men's issues more fairly.

[The Alexanderians]

This Question Can Be Answered By Looking At The News And All These Shows That Depict SUCH.

I...don't think I follow your intent here?