Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[Jello Biafra]

Or alternatively, they admire the rapist.

You posted this before, without noticing this actually proven there is no rape culture, but rather at best a sub culture,

It's evidence that there's at least a subculture, not at best a subculture. Further, Settrah admitting that there is a rape subculture would mean dialing back on many of his more extreme statements, including the notion that everyone who hears of rape is horrified. (To be fair, Settrah did say that sociopaths wouldn't be horrified, but assuming that the rapists and their friends are all sociopaths would raise the question of how so many sociopaths ended up in the same social group.)

This article about a survey is old, but in 1988 at least, the vast majority of 6th-9th graders approved of marital rape. Could we say that 6th-9th graders in 1988 had a rape culture?

I assume you refer to this:

Among married couples rape is permissible, said 87 percent of the boys and 79 percent of the girls

Without seeing a primary source and the methodology employed within the survey rather than a secondary source which may or may not have an agenda to deliberately or unintentionally distort the survey, I'm not prepared to speculate.

Nonetheless, Rape Culture is defined in several of the examples in the OP as a society-wide acceptance of rape. Neither of your examples demonstrate anything other than a subculture amongst young teens, which is troubling and a source of some concern, but not demonstrative of a wider problem. At best you could say that in the demographic of 1700 sixth to ninth graders in Rhode Island in 1988 there was a rape subculture, and you could say there is perhaps some evidence of that perpetuating.

If there is a rape subculture that exists in so many different places, where does it come from?

But the fact the state has successfully prosecuted the two attackers is evidence no widespread tolerance of rape exists in our society.

I'm not sure you want to make this argument, unless you're suggesting that all of the rapes that the state doesn't prosecute is evidence that our society tolerates rape.

[Hirota]

If there is a rape subculture that exists in so many different places, where does it come from?

You've only tenuously demonstrated one age demographic with your two sources. You've not supplied evidence a rape subculture does exist in "so many different places".

I'm not sure you want to make this argument, unless you're suggesting that all of the rapes that the state doesn't prosecute is evidence that our society tolerates rape.

I'm not the one who was engaging in cherrypicking - it's your source ("it" being the source you've quoted twice from the mirror). I'm simply pointing out how limited (and useless as a piece of evidence) it is.

[Haritopia]

Germany is becoming sort of a rape culture, but only idiots say there is in the United States.

No, it is mearly a question of the parasitic pseudorefugees in the case of Germany, as well as Sweden, the US have self-made native issues with rape, but it is far from a "rape culture".

[Jello Biafra]

If there is a rape subculture that exists in so many different places, where does it come from?

You've only tenuously demonstrated one age demographic with your two sources. You've not supplied evidence a rape subculture does exist in "so many different places".

Similar evidence can be found in Steubenville, Ohio, Glen Ridge, New Jersey, Torrington, Connecticut, and Saratoga, California.

I'm not sure you want to make this argument, unless you're suggesting that all of the rapes that the state doesn't prosecute is evidence that our society tolerates rape.

I'm not the one who was engaging in cherrypicking - it's your source ("it" being the source you've quoted twice from the mirror). I'm simply pointing out how limited (and useless as a piece of evidence) it is.

It contradicts the idea that only rapists are not horrified by rape and is therefore sufficient as evidence in that regard.

[Hirota]

Similar evidence can be found in...

No, you are still providing evidence that a rape culture exists in one subculture. You are not proving it exists outside of that demographic of young teenagers, which I've already conceded is troubling.

I think (but you are not very clear) that you are trying to argue that because it happens in different geographical locations that's evidence that it's wider than a narrow single demographic, but every example you've listed as far as I can see has had those same offenders convicted of the crime. That's evidence there is no rape culture in society.

It contradicts the idea that only rapists are not horrified by rape and is therefore sufficient as evidence in that regard.

Except, both individuals were convicted in the link from the mirror and therefore this claim of yours that it shows "only rapists are not horrified by rape" is simply wrong.

[Jello Biafra]

Similar evidence can be found in...

No, you are still providing evidence that a rape culture exists in one subculture. You are not proving it exists outside of that demographic of young teenagers, which I've already conceded is troubling.

I think (but you are not very clear) that you are trying to argue that because it happens in different geographical locations that's evidence that it's wider than a narrow single demographic, but every example you've listed as far as I can see has had those same offenders convicted of the crime. That's evidence there is no rape culture in society.

Well, if you're looking for examples of alleged rapes that fit the pattern I'm describing, those occurred in Cole Harbour, Canada, Coquitlam, Canada, and Houston, Texas.

It contradicts the idea that only rapists are not horrified by rape and is therefore sufficient as evidence in that regard.

Except, both individuals were convicted in the link from the mirror and therefore this claim of yours that it shows "only rapists are not horrified by rape" is simply wrong.

Were the friends of the rapist who called him a 'legend' also convicted by a court?

[New Edom]

Let's not pretend you had any intention in making this topic other than to victim blame and attempt to dispute rape culture and blame it all on the evil feminists who oppress you so much.

New Edom: I think it was a useful thread, and some of the demographics were pretty shocking, like the possibility of a 1:1 gender ratio in rape, which kind of disproves rape culture as we know it. The only reason you've been constantly put down and shamed is because that's the only way that the feminists can still cling to their side of the debate. The poll speaks for itself.

Tannat: No offense, but that could be interpreted as flaming. Also, shaming people is stopping low, and tends to be done once you've run out of reason and evidence to apply in a debate... think of a decent retaliation, or admit defeat.

I appreciate that you wrote this. When I wrote what I did above it was because I was demoralized by how often liberal people do their best to smear me and pretend that the threads I bring up are not issues and that I'm making things up. What you wrote above however is a good reminder.

What is most upsetting and frustrating is that I myself am a survivor, like Wendy McElroy I don't blame a system or a demographic of people but the people who mistreated me. It is exasperating that for people who support rape culture theory it seems like only one kind of victim is supportable however, only one kind of experience relevant. But most frustrating of all is the constant accusation of victim blaming.

[New Edom]

You know, I think this discussion is useless actually. No matter what I say, people keep accusing me of blaming victims, people keep insisting that nothing I say maes any sense, so I'm starting to come to a point where I don't care anymore. I might as well be a mean spirited person if I cannot convince people of anything. I dont' thin I'm a stupid person but I keep being treated like one. None of my words mean anythign to this anyway. I might as well simply vote for people who are utterly reactionary and refuse to be concerned about this stuff ever again. I think I've wasted my time with all this.

You started a thread, made some terrible arguments, dodged questions that probed them, and then got angry that the people questioning you didn't give up and go away. This isn't you being bullied.

As a survivor myself, I got sick of being accused of victim blaming. My experiences are just as bvalid as any other survivor's, but that's not how my experience is treated by rape culture theorists. Your accusations do infuriate me, but if this is going to be your constant attitude then I don't intend to communicate iwth you any further. You have dismissed everything I have said, that's your perogative, but I do not respect your views either, so perhaps we should just not bother to write back and forth.

For the record, when I worked with the men's resource center where I live, the entirety of what we were taught was about taking personal responsibility, and somehow this didn't involve us feeling blamed but rather empowered. We were able to somehow balance accepting that our victimization was not our fault, but that at the same time ther were steps we could take to reduce the likelihood of it happening again. This actually helped us feel safer in life. I've tried explaining this sort of thing here only to be accused of victim blaming.

Now if you want to accept my words at face value I'd appreciate it, but if you won't then I see no further point in any discussion with you, as you seem convinced that my intentions are bad and that everything I say is worthless in this thread.

[New Edom]

It's used as one. I don't care where it came from,

Can you clarify why you are describing it as a "feminist idea" if you don't care about its origins?

it's used as a means of saying "male sexuality envisioned by patriarchy is a weapon against women." It's used to support this power dynamic.

Can you clarify how that makes the researchers wrong? Can you clarify if you are disputing the findings presented above because you disagree with the conclusions some feminists are drawing from the findings? Just to clarify, that's an odd way to go about it, if that's the case.

The researchers aren't 'wrong', I find the conclusions not completely convincing because other research I have seen suggests that rape is on a basic biological level about sex. Since it takes place in the animal kingdom, I would argue that there is good reason to doubt that it's just about power. I would say rather that power is the MEANS by which nonconsenting sex takes place. I would also say that there should be acknowledgement of variation here. There are some people, the habitual rapists Lisak mentioned, that no doubt have sadistic impulses and fantasies of power. However there are other examples of rape that are historic which I would argue are less about power and more about lust.

My main concern about these studies is that they have led people to believe that sexual feelings have almost nothing to do with rape, and that attraction--arguably the reason why most have sex--is irrelevant as a factor. To hear people talk about it it can NEVER be a factor.

If you one more time take me responding not according to your perfect desire as avoiding I will cease responding to you altogether. Just request clarification or something.

Clarification requested.[/quote]

I call this general approach a feminist idea not because only feminists have researched it, but because rape culture theory resorts to a priori assumptions about relations between men and women based on feminist patriarchy theory. This is why we still have such difficulty with understanding how to talk about male victims, or even female victims of other females. Rape culture theory as it is popularly presented reinforces the notion of good women victimized by men.

[Des-Bal]

As a survivor myself, I got sick of being accused of victim blaming. My experiences are just as bvalid as any other survivor's, but that's not how my experience is treated by rape culture theorists. Your accusations do infuriate me, but if this is going to be your constant attitude then I don't intend to communicate iwth you any further. You have dismissed everything I have said, that's your perogative, but I do not respect your views either, so perhaps we should just not bother to write back and forth.

For the record, when I worked with the men's resource center where I live, the entirety of what we were taught was about taking personal responsibility, and somehow this didn't involve us feeling blamed but rather empowered. We were able to somehow balance accepting that our victimization was not our fault, but that at the same time ther were steps we could take to reduce the likelihood of it happening again. This actually helped us feel safer in life. I've tried explaining this sort of thing here only to be accused of victim blaming.

Now if you want to accept my words at face value I'd appreciate it, but if you won't then I see no further point in any discussion with you, as you seem convinced that my intentions are bad and that everything I say is worthless in this thread.

Oh you have experiences? That means that when you used the fact that a victim was responsible for her own vulnerability to dismiss several arguments mostly pertaining to how bad the conduct of the offender was you weren't blaming the victim. At face value I am telling you that your statement cannot be interpreted in ANY logical way except as blaming the victim. I have not dismissed everything you've said, we are almost completely in agreement I even agree that in the specific case you referenced your statement was true- the problem is you tried to use it to support the offender. You specifically used the fact the victim got herself drunk to brush off claims that the offenders actions were deplorable.

I am going to put the ridiculous things you say through the same scrutiny I subject any feminists ideas to.

[New Edom]

As a survivor myself, I got sick of being accused of victim blaming. My experiences are just as bvalid as any other survivor's, but that's not how my experience is treated by rape culture theorists. Your accusations do infuriate me, but if this is going to be your constant attitude then I don't intend to communicate iwth you any further. You have dismissed everything I have said, that's your perogative, but I do not respect your views either, so perhaps we should just not bother to write back and forth.

For the record, when I worked with the men's resource center where I live, the entirety of what we were taught was about taking personal responsibility, and somehow this didn't involve us feeling blamed but rather empowered. We were able to somehow balance accepting that our victimization was not our fault, but that at the same time ther were steps we could take to reduce the likelihood of it happening again. This actually helped us feel safer in life. I've tried explaining this sort of thing here only to be accused of victim blaming.

Now if you want to accept my words at face value I'd appreciate it, but if you won't then I see no further point in any discussion with you, as you seem convinced that my intentions are bad and that everything I say is worthless in this thread.

Oh you have experiences? That means that when you used the fact that a victim was responsible for her own vulnerability to dismiss several arguments mostly pertaining to how bad the conduct of the offender was you weren't blaming the victim. At face value I am telling you that your statement cannot be interpreted in ANY logical way except as blaming the victim. I have not dismissed everything you've said, we are almost completely in agreement I even agree that in the specific case you referenced your statement was true- the problem is you tried to use it to support the offender. You specifically used the fact the victim got herself drunk to brush off claims that the offenders actions were deplorable.

I am going to put the ridiculous things you say through the same scrutiny I subject any feminists ideas to.

You had your chance, we're done.

[Des-Bal]

You had your chance, we're done.

I can't help but feel that I will survive the loss of my chance to agree with your every statement on pain of temper tantrum. I have agreed with basically everything you've said in this thread the problem is that you responded to arguments including:

Sexual violation is an extreme violation
We shouldn't forgive brock turner or believe that everybody is capable of rape
Justice is not served by lenient sentences.
Prison is necessary to protect vulnerable people.
Rapists should be punished.

By stating that maybe a victim would have been safer if she hadn't gotten drunk. You are not under attack and you do not have the moral high ground.

[Mattopilos]

Oh you have experiences? That means that when you used the fact that a victim was responsible for her own vulnerability to dismiss several arguments mostly pertaining to how bad the conduct of the offender was you weren't blaming the victim. At face value I am telling you that your statement cannot be interpreted in ANY logical way except as blaming the victim. I have not dismissed everything you've said, we are almost completely in agreement I even agree that in the specific case you referenced your statement was true- the problem is you tried to use it to support the offender. You specifically used the fact the victim got herself drunk to brush off claims that the offenders actions were deplorable.

I am going to put the ridiculous things you say through the same scrutiny I subject any feminists ideas to.

You had your chance, we're done.

That is a very immature way to end an argument. You obviously made some fallacies and he pointed them out. You should make valid points and discuss them, not use emotive ones.

[New Edom]

You had your chance, we're done.

That is a very immature way to end an argument. You obviously made some fallacies and he pointed them out. You should make valid points and discuss them, not use emotive ones.

What fallacies? I did not blame the victim, I pointed out that what she had done was stupid and put herself in a vulnerable position. Just because he says that I blamed the victim over and over does not mean that I did.

This is an old and tiresome argument made by people who cannot separate one thing from another, and I'm not interested in continuing it. However I also won't stand for being insulted, including by you.

[Des-Bal]

What fallacies? I did not blame the victim, I pointed out that what she had done was stupid and put herself in a vulnerable position. Just because he says that I blamed the victim over and over does not mean that I did.

This is an old and tiresome argument made by people who cannot separate one thing from another, and I'm not interested in continuing it. However I also won't stand for being insulted, including by you.

You brought up the fact that she put herself in a vulnerable position to defend the actions of the offender. That is exactly what it means to blame the victim, despite apparently discussing the issue until you were completely consumed by your frustrations you NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED to explain your statement as having any purpose except to blame the victim.

[New Edom]

What fallacies? I did not blame the victim, I pointed out that what she had done was stupid and put herself in a vulnerable position. Just because he says that I blamed the victim over and over does not mean that I did.

This is an old and tiresome argument made by people who cannot separate one thing from another, and I'm not interested in continuing it. However I also won't stand for being insulted, including by you.

You brought up the fact that she put herself in a vulnerable position to defend the actions of the offender. That is exactly what it means to blame the victim, despite apparently discussing the issue until you were completely consumed by your frustrations you NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED to explain your statement as having any purpose except to blame the victim.

I did not do so to defend the actions of the criminal. I have repeatedly said that he was a criminal and that his decision to sexually assault her was the result of his own choice. Do you deny this?

[Des-Bal]

I did not do so to defend the actions of the criminal. I have repeatedly said that he was a criminal and that his decision to sexually assault her was the result of his own choice. Do you deny this?

Irrelevant, you said specifically that people should be open to forgiving him and attempted to highlight more serious crimes as a way of minimizing what he did. You may not have said he was in the right but you absolutely were defending him. In the course of that discussion you brought up the fact that the victim got herself drunk- what purpose does that statement serve except to blame the victim?

[Settrah]

You posted this before, without noticing this actually proven there is no rape culture, but rather at best a sub culture,

It's evidence that there's at least a subculture, not at best a subculture. Further, Settrah admitting that there is a rape subculture would mean dialing back on many of his more extreme statements, including the notion that everyone who hears of rape is horrified. (To be fair, Settrah did say that sociopaths wouldn't be horrified, but assuming that the rapists and their friends are all sociopaths would raise the question of how so many sociopaths ended up in the same social group.)

My point was that rape isn't something that's widely accepted and praised as a normalised and OK practice, which is what a rape culture would be, which is what people try to paint it as. A rape subculture might exist in some form, but it's not widely accepted and is very likely an undesirable anomie to the general social context. I don't agree that we're in a culture that accepts and rewards rape. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but more people are offended and against rape than those that champion it.

But you'll always get sociopaths. No amount of feminist literature will ever change that.

[New Edom]

I did not do so to defend the actions of the criminal. I have repeatedly said that he was a criminal and that his decision to sexually assault her was the result of his own choice. Do you deny this?

Irrelevant, you said specifically that people should be open to forgiving him and attempted to highlight more serious crimes as a way of minimizing what he did. You may not have said he was in the right but you absolutely were defending him. In the course of that discussion you brought up the fact that the victim got herself drunk- what purpose does that statement serve except to blame the victim?

Well, you're going to have to think about what that means. Does it mean that I'm an awful person, or does it mean that perhaps I value things that you may not?

For instance, I think that rehabilitation of criminals is important. Do you disagree with that idea?

I also believe that people who are accused of crimes have rights and that those rights need to be of concern, for a number of reasons.

When you say that I minimize the crime--I only do so in relation to people who have said that what the woman suffered was one of the worst things imaginable. It is not the worst thing imaginable. That doesn't mae it good though, it's still bad. Every crime isn't equal even in the same category. There's nothing wrong with this. Is this something you find impossible to accept? Do you honestly see no difference between say a 24 hour gang rape and a date rape where an encounter gets unexpectedly ugly for one party?

[Des-Bal]

[

Well, you're going to have to think about what that means. Does it mean that I'm an awful person, or does it mean that perhaps I value things that you may not?

For instance, I think that rehabilitation of criminals is important. Do you disagree with that idea?

I also believe that people who are accused of crimes have rights and that those rights need to be of concern, for a number of reasons.

When you say that I minimize the crime--I only do so in relation to people who have said that what the woman suffered was one of the worst things imaginable. It is not the worst thing imaginable. That doesn't mae it good though, it's still bad. Every crime isn't equal even in the same category. There's nothing wrong with this. Is this something you find impossible to accept? Do you honestly see no difference between say a 24 hour gang rape and a date rape where an encounter gets unexpectedly ugly for one party?

This is you dodging the issue. In order to further your arguments you highlighted the fact the victim got herself drunk you used that to dismiss arguments against your position- that is the problem. That is the thing you have made no attempt to defend, that is nothing less than you blaming a victim.

[New Edom]

[

Well, you're going to have to think about what that means. Does it mean that I'm an awful person, or does it mean that perhaps I value things that you may not?

For instance, I think that rehabilitation of criminals is important. Do you disagree with that idea?

I also believe that people who are accused of crimes have rights and that those rights need to be of concern, for a number of reasons.

When you say that I minimize the crime--I only do so in relation to people who have said that what the woman suffered was one of the worst things imaginable. It is not the worst thing imaginable. That doesn't mae it good though, it's still bad. Every crime isn't equal even in the same category. There's nothing wrong with this. Is this something you find impossible to accept? Do you honestly see no difference between say a 24 hour gang rape and a date rape where an encounter gets unexpectedly ugly for one party?

This is you dodging the issue. In order to further your arguments you highlighted the fact the victim got herself drunk you used that to dismiss arguments against your position- that is the problem. That is the thing you have made no attempt to defend, that is nothing less than you blaming a victim.

Well, for everyone's information: this is why I'm considering just stopping talking to you. You are basically just calling me a liar. Furthermore, you continually to just say 'blame the victim' over and over doesn't prove anything either. If you won't consider my actual remarks and what they mean there's no point in this. I will not simply be shamed by you into saying what you want. Either stop writing this way or try something else.

[Des-Bal]

Well, for everyone's information: this is why I'm considering just stopping talking to you. You are basically just calling me a liar. Furthermore, you continually to just say 'blame the victim' over and over doesn't prove anything either. If you won't consider my actual remarks and what they mean there's no point in this. I will not simply be shamed by you into saying what you want. Either stop writing this way or try something else.

I am not ignoring your remarks, I am hanging onto them no matter how much you try to distance yourself.

Someone made a post presenting the following arguments

Sexual violation is an extreme violation
We shouldn't forgive brock turner or believe that everybody is capable of rape
Justice is not served by lenient sentences.
Prison is necessary to protect vulnerable people.
Rapists should be punished.

You replied:

Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk.

This is your post. None of your words have been edited, none of your words have been removed. This is what you said in it's entirety directly in response to someone arguing the previous points. The only way to interpret that is you using the fact the victim got herself drunk to dismiss these points. Play the victim all you want: you said something awful, everybody gets you said something awful, if you don't want to discuss the fact you said something awful then as I've told you several times I don't feel any need to continue talking about this.

[Nazeroth]

Rape culture implies that Rape is a normal part of our culture...

don't know about you but unless you live in your parents basement or just don't have a social life you would know that 99% of people would say that is bullshit.

[Costa Fierro]

If anyone doesn't think that men can be raped or abused by women, you should read this.

[Settrah]

Rape culture implies that Rape is a normal part of our culture...

don't know about you but unless you live in your parents basement or just don't have a social life you would know that 99% of people would say that is bullshit.

Exactly.