Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

What you have said excuses rapists for their crimes. You are standing up for rapists to have a right to rape those who are incapacitated. You are placing the blame for her rape on her. Should you go outside today and be withdrawing cash from an ATM and get jumped, should I shrug and say "Perhaps you shouldn't have been handling cash in the open"?

Just because you still believe the rapist was wrong doesn't make your statement any less disgusting. Do not place the blame for rape on the victim.

Uhhhh. I think we should dial this back a bit.
Though I don't agree by any means with what Edom said, I don't think he's "excusing" the person at all. Or at least I don't think that's what he meant. Neither is he standing up for rapist.
And yeah, I do think he was off base with his remark. Partially because it's somewhat irresponsible considering the nature of rape to say "Oh, she could have done something different." (Though I do hold that it's different for different crimes) and partially because we shouldn't give into fear and also partially because it rings of some less than nice things some people say about people who get raped...

What I'm saying is that Edom's words were poorly chosen or at least somewhat undiplomatic and insensitive, but I don't think he deserves to have EVERYONE on the thread coming down on him for it in such an aggressive manner.

Whenever he chooses to acknowledge that faulting victims for crimes committed against them is irresponsible and reprehensible, and amends what he said, I'm sure we can all get over it.

But just because he's not literally saying "haha she was passed out, it's fine!" doesn't make the statement okay. What he said, not just there but throughout the entire discussion of this topic, is what "rape culture" is. "She should have been more careful." "It's not THAT bad." "At least she was passed out." "You're going to ruin HIS life." That's the stuff people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. The attitude that is held by some people that rape is only slightly a crime, the victim should have done X to prevent it, and that the perpetrator needs to have his or her feelings or future protected from trial or slander.

[Charmera]

Uhhhh. I think we should dial this back a bit.
Though I don't agree by any means with what Edom said, I don't think he's "excusing" the person at all. Or at least I don't think that's what he meant. Neither is he standing up for rapist.
And yeah, I do think he was off base with his remark. Partially because it's somewhat irresponsible considering the nature of rape to say "Oh, she could have done something different." (Though I do hold that it's different for different crimes) and partially because we shouldn't give into fear and also partially because it rings of some less than nice things some people say about people who get raped...

What I'm saying is that Edom's words were poorly chosen or at least somewhat undiplomatic and insensitive, but I don't think he deserves to have EVERYONE on the thread coming down on him for it in such an aggressive manner.

Whenever he chooses to acknowledge that faulting victims for crimes committed against them is irresponsible and reprehensible, and amends what he said, I'm sure we can all get over it.

But just because he's not literally saying "haha she was passed out, it's fine!" doesn't make the statement okay. What he said, not just there but throughout the entire discussion of this topic, is what "rape culture" is. "She should have been more careful." "It's not THAT bad." "At least she was passed out." "You're going to ruin HIS life." That's the stuff people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. The attitude that is held by some people that rape is only slightly a crime, the victim should have done X to prevent it, and that the perpetrator needs to have his or her feelings or future protected from trial or slander.

What if that doesn't happen?

I do see where you're coming from, and perhaps if this topic were one of my own rage buttons I may also be just as enraged. But I still feel like we should dial it back a bit, like I said. I mean I'm not saying you should shake hands and then be friends again, but perhaps if we could drop words like "reprehensible" which is perhaps a tad too inflammatory then that would be great.

[Costa Fierro]

That's the stuff people are talking about when they talk about rape culture.

That's just the stuff you've brought up. That isn't "rape culture" in a nutshell. It isn't even part of "rape culture". "Rape culture" implies that it is socially acceptable and encouraged for people to go out and rape others. It's the narrative society constantly hears from braindead feminists that all men are out to rape and that society encourages men to rape people. This isn't true (well for women anyway).

The attitude that is held by some people that rape is only slightly a crime, the victim should have done X to prevent it, and that the perpetrator needs to have his or her feelings or future protected from trial or slander.

The attitude that "the victim should have done x to prevent it" is one of the main issues Edom (and I for that matter) have because it absolves the individual of their personal responsibility and accountability for their actions. Does it imply that the victim deserved it or that the rape was in any way justified? Of course not. But there is always going to be mitigating factors with crimes like these, where things could have changed if certain actions were taken.

As for everything else, society already basically has given him a life sentence. Trial by media is way more powerful than you might think.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Whenever he chooses to acknowledge that faulting victims for crimes committed against them is irresponsible and reprehensible, and amends what he said, I'm sure we can all get over it.

But just because he's not literally saying "haha she was passed out, it's fine!" doesn't make the statement okay. What he said, not just there but throughout the entire discussion of this topic, is what "rape culture" is. "She should have been more careful." "It's not THAT bad." "At least she was passed out." "You're going to ruin HIS life." That's the stuff people are talking about when they talk about rape culture. The attitude that is held by some people that rape is only slightly a crime, the victim should have done X to prevent it, and that the perpetrator needs to have his or her feelings or future protected from trial or slander.

What if that doesn't happen?

I do see where you're coming from, and perhaps if this topic were one of my own rage buttons I may also be just as enraged. But I still feel like we should dial it back a bit, like I said. I mean I'm not saying you should shake hands and then be friends again, but perhaps if we could drop words like "reprehensible" which is perhaps a tad too inflammatory then that would be great.

Do you want me to say "His opinion is icky!" or "I kind of disagree with his opinion but respect it all the same"? Because I won't. What he said is reprehensible. He might have a right to say it, but that doesn't make him right, and it doesn't save him from being chastised or his opinion being condemned.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

That's the stuff people are talking about when they talk about rape culture.

That's just the stuff you've brought up. That isn't "rape culture" in a nutshell. It isn't even part of "rape culture". "Rape culture" implies that it is socially acceptable and encouraged for people to go out and rape others. It's the narrative society constantly hears from braindead feminists that all men are out to rape and that society encourages men to rape people. This isn't true (well for women anyway).

The attitude that is held by some people that rape is only slightly a crime, the victim should have done X to prevent it, and that the perpetrator needs to have his or her feelings or future protected from trial or slander.

The attitude that "the victim should have done x to prevent it" is one of the main issues Edom (and I for that matter) have because it absolves the individual of their personal responsibility and accountability for their actions. Does it imply that the victim deserved it or that the rape was in any way justified? Of course not. But there is always going to be mitigating factors with crimes like these, where things could have changed if certain actions were taken.

As for everything else, society already basically has given him a life sentence. Trial by media is way more powerful than you might think.

As a feminist, who has done a lot of talking to feminists, I have never once heard any of them say that "rape culture" = "encouraging to rape." It has been consistently about backing up rapists, standing up for rapists, and accusing victims. And I don't mean that in a "oh the lawyer stood up for his client!" I mean "there are entire online communities who think that if a person is passed out, it's not really rape."

And no, you do not get to hold victims accountable for their rape. Regardless of whether she fought and kicked and screamed or was just passed out, rape is still rape. It is still the fault of the rapist. The rapist is the only one you may hold accountable for the crime, and putting the blame on the victim will only open more doors to declare the rapist not guilty and the victim guilty.

[Frenline Delpha]

That's just the stuff you've brought up. That isn't "rape culture" in a nutshell. It isn't even part of "rape culture". "Rape culture" implies that it is socially acceptable and encouraged for people to go out and rape others. It's the narrative society constantly hears from braindead feminists that all men are out to rape and that society encourages men to rape people. This isn't true (well for women anyway).



The attitude that "the victim should have done x to prevent it" is one of the main issues Edom (and I for that matter) have because it absolves the individual of their personal responsibility and accountability for their actions. Does it imply that the victim deserved it or that the rape was in any way justified? Of course not. But there is always going to be mitigating factors with crimes like these, where things could have changed if certain actions were taken.

As for everything else, society already basically has given him a life sentence. Trial by media is way more powerful than you might think.

As a feminist, who has done a lot of talking to feminists, I have never once heard any of them say that "rape culture" = "encouraging to rape." It has been consistently about backing up rapists, standing up for rapists, and accusing victims. And I don't mean that in a "oh the lawyer stood up for his client!" I mean "there are entire online communities who think that if a person is passed out, it's not really rape."

And no, you do not get to hold victims accountable for their rape. Regardless of whether she fought and kicked and screamed or was just passed out, rape is still rape. It is still the fault of the rapist. The rapist is the only one you may hold accountable for the crime, and putting the blame on the victim will only open more doors to declare the rapist not guilty and the victim guilty.

Personal anecdotes mean nothing.

[Charmera]

What if that doesn't happen?

I do see where you're coming from, and perhaps if this topic were one of my own rage buttons I may also be just as enraged. But I still feel like we should dial it back a bit, like I said. I mean I'm not saying you should shake hands and then be friends again, but perhaps if we could drop words like "reprehensible" which is perhaps a tad too inflammatory then that would be great.

Do you want me to say "His opinion is icky!" or "I kind of disagree with his opinion but respect it all the same"?

...Yeah.
That's pretty much what I want.
It's what would make me most happy in the world.
That's everything I asked for and more.
Oh sweet mama it's my birthday.

Though seriously, I said "tone it down" and chill out. Like I said, you don't have to play nice, just play reasonable. I'm just trying to de-escalate a perceived conflict.
In fact, you don't have to do anything. I mean I'm not your parent. You don't have to justify anything to me.
Neither, though, do you have to justify an already justified viewpoint to Edom.

Because I won't. What he said is reprehensible. He might have a right to say it, but that doesn't make him right, and it doesn't save him from being chastised or his opinion being condemned.

And that's lovely and jazz.
But what you, and others, keep saying is bordering on chastizing the person rather than the opinion. Plus it's pretty darn redundant because everyone else has already said why they think he's wrong.

[Costa Fierro]

As a feminist who has done a lot of talking to feminists

And still hasn't come up with an argument that doesn't involve assuming that suggesting that people who could have taken preventative measures for their own safety is tantamount to victim blaming or outright suggesting that it wasn't rape or that she deserved it. Righteous indignation isn't going to get you very far.

I have never once heard any of them say that "rape culture" = "encouraging to rape."

"It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent." So sexual violence, i.e rape, is seen as "sexy" and therefore things that are considered by society to be "sexy" are encouraged, hence "rape culture" encourages rape.

And no, you do not get to hold victims accountable for their rape.

So personal responsibility gets thrown out of the window if the victim just happens to have a vagina? Sounds about right.

Regardless of whether she fought and kicked and screamed or was just passed out, rape is still rape.

No shit. However, there are mitigating factors in this and every other rape case where the person could have avoided it completely. It's called "taking precautions". Would you walk across a busy road and expect everyone to stop for you?

It is still the fault of the rapist.

Again, no shit.

The rapist is the only one you may hold accountable for the crime, and putting the blame on the victim will only open more doors to declare the rapist not guilty and the victim guilty.

Except it is not putting the blame on the victim. It's pretty obvious that the rapist is the only one who committed rape. However, again, people should take responsibility for their own safety. It's not blaming victims to suggest that people shouldn't go to parties if they don't know anyone there or if they do, to take someone with them for mutual protection. It's learning from other people's mistakes. That doesn't mean she isn't a victim, it just means she unwittingly put herself into a situation where she became a victim. No one waved a magic wand and she went from party goer to victim in an instant, there was a series of steps which led her into a situation where she was vulnerable and someone took advantage of that vulnerability.

[Frenline Delpha]

As a feminist who has done a lot of talking to feminists

And still hasn't come up with an argument that doesn't involve assuming that suggesting that people who could have taken preventative measures for their own safety is tantamount to victim blaming or outright suggesting that it wasn't rape or that she deserved it. Righteous indignation isn't going to get you very far.

I have never once heard any of them say that "rape culture" = "encouraging to rape."

"It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent." So sexual violence, i.e rape, is seen as "sexy" and therefore things that are considered by society to be "sexy" are encouraged, hence "rape culture" encourages rape.

And no, you do not get to hold victims accountable for their rape.

So personal responsibility gets thrown out of the window if the victim just happens to have a vagina? Sounds about right.

Regardless of whether she fought and kicked and screamed or was just passed out, rape is still rape.

No shit. However, there are mitigating factors in this and every other rape case where the person could have avoided it completely. It's called "taking precautions". Would you walk across a busy road and expect everyone to stop for you?

It is still the fault of the rapist.

Again, no shit.

The rapist is the only one you may hold accountable for the crime, and putting the blame on the victim will only open more doors to declare the rapist not guilty and the victim guilty.

Except it is not putting the blame on the victim. It's pretty obvious that the rapist is the only one who committed rape. However, again, people should take responsibility for their own safety. It's not blaming victims to suggest that people shouldn't go to parties if they don't know anyone there or if they do, to take someone with them for mutual protection. It's learning from other people's mistakes. That doesn't mean she isn't a victim, it just means she unwittingly put herself into a situation where she became a victim. No one waved a magic wand and she went from party goer to victim in an instant, there was a series of steps which led her into a situation where she was vulnerable and someone took advantage of that vulnerability.

In fact, it's not victim blaming... it's victim prevention. How can that be a bad thing?

[New Edom]

For the record, I think that when it comes to the issue of rape some people have been accepting a set of docttrines rather than thinking clearly. I get the impression that for such people a tragedy holds no lessons save "bad things happen".

I also realize that for some, talking about the victim at all save with pity for what happened to them is completely off the table. It is, such people claim, impossible to talk about how the victim might have reduced the chances of becoming a victim because that is only placing all responsibility on the victim, and possibly the blame too.

I don't expect to convince people with this point of view. However let me state for the record that:

1. I agree with RAINN's general position on this subject.

2. That means that the rapist or sexual assaulter is the one who is responsible for the crime in terms of guilt, which means that even if the victim was stupid, had been dressed in a sexually exciting way, was in a place that was unwise to be, the rapist/sexual assaulter is still the guilty party and it should not have an effect on their sentencing or accusation. I would agree that it is imnportant to emphasize this, and I have I believe consistently said so.

3. That we can focus on why people commit such acts and try to find ways to act as communities to protect people from the possibility--though I think that rape culture theory is a poor way to go about this.

4. I think that at the same time we can encourage people to reduce the likelihood of their being attacked. This doesn't mean that people should feel it was their fault that they were attacked, or that others should condemn them and say "well, they had it coming." Some don't want to live theirt lives with an awareness of danger. I'm very skeptical of this--I think the world is a dangerous place, civilization insulates people somewhat from that, but that's in and of itself a reduction of risk which isn't infallible.

If this is insufficient for some people, that's unfortunate. If they would like to discuss it without throwing accusations at me, that's welcome. If they insist on throwing the accusations I may not respond to all of them as they all appear to be the same moral outrage which I think indicates a poor understanding of my position rather than a real indictment of anything I've said.

[Des-Bal]

For the record, I think that when it comes to the issue of rape some people have been accepting a set of docttrines rather than thinking clearly. I get the impression that for such people a tragedy holds no lessons save "bad things happen".

I also realize that for some, talking about the victim at all save with pity for what happened to them is completely off the table. It is, such people claim, impossible to talk about how the victim might have reduced the chances of becoming a victim because that is only placing all responsibility on the victim, and possibly the blame too.

I don't expect to convince people with this point of view. However let me state for the record that:

1. I agree with RAINN's general position on this subject.

2. That means that the rapist or sexual assaulter is the one who is responsible for the crime in terms of guilt, which means that even if the victim was stupid, had been dressed in a sexually exciting way, was in a place that was unwise to be, the rapist/sexual assaulter is still the guilty party and it should not have an effect on their sentencing or accusation. I would agree that it is imnportant to emphasize this, and I have I believe consistently said so.

3. That we can focus on why people commit such acts and try to find ways to act as communities to protect people from the possibility--though I think that rape culture theory is a poor way to go about this.

4. I think that at the same time we can encourage people to reduce the likelihood of their being attacked. This doesn't mean that people should feel it was their fault that they were attacked, or that others should condemn them and say "well, they had it coming." Some don't want to live theirt lives with an awareness of danger. I'm very skeptical of this--I think the world is a dangerous place, civilization insulates people somewhat from that, but that's in and of itself a reduction of risk which isn't infallible.

If this is insufficient for some people, that's unfortunate. If they would like to discuss it without throwing accusations at me, that's welcome. If they insist on throwing the accusations I may not respond to all of them as they all appear to be the same moral outrage which I think indicates a poor understanding of my position rather than a real indictment of anything I've said.

That is not the issue I spent a little wile differentiating between recognizing factors that contribute to vulnerability and blaming the victim. You on the other hand dismissed several a poster who stated among other things their refusal to forgive the offender for preying on the vulnerable by saying that "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." There is no way to read that except as blaming the victim especially considering that immediately prior you were discussing why the offender's actions were not that bad.

[Kravanica]

As a feminist who has done a lot of talking to feminists

And still hasn't come up with an argument that doesn't involve assuming that suggesting that people who could have taken preventative measures for their own safety is tantamount to victim blaming or outright suggesting that it wasn't rape or that she deserved it. Righteous indignation isn't going to get you very far.

I have never once heard any of them say that "rape culture" = "encouraging to rape."

"It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent." So sexual violence, i.e rape, is seen as "sexy" and therefore things that are considered by society to be "sexy" are encouraged, hence "rape culture" encourages rape.

And no, you do not get to hold victims accountable for their rape.

So personal responsibility gets thrown out of the window if the victim just happens to have a vagina? Sounds about right.

Regardless of whether she fought and kicked and screamed or was just passed out, rape is still rape.

No shit. However, there are mitigating factors in this and every other rape case where the person could have avoided it completely. It's called "taking precautions". Would you walk across a busy road and expect everyone to stop for you?

It is still the fault of the rapist.

Again, no shit.

The rapist is the only one you may hold accountable for the crime, and putting the blame on the victim will only open more doors to declare the rapist not guilty and the victim guilty.

Except it is not putting the blame on the victim. It's pretty obvious that the rapist is the only one who committed rape. However, again, people should take responsibility for their own safety. It's not blaming victims to suggest that people shouldn't go to parties if they don't know anyone there or if they do, to take someone with them for mutual protection. It's learning from other people's mistakes. That doesn't mean she isn't a victim, it just means she unwittingly put herself into a situation where she became a victim. No one waved a magic wand and she went from party goer to victim in an instant, there was a series of steps which led her into a situation where she was vulnerable and someone took advantage of that vulnerability.

In a perfect world women could be able to walk around with a thong and two post-it notes on and not run the risk of being raped or sexually assaulted.

We don't live in a perfect world.

It's sad that people don't seem to realize that.

[New Edom]

For the record, I think that when it comes to the issue of rape some people have been accepting a set of docttrines rather than thinking clearly. I get the impression that for such people a tragedy holds no lessons save "bad things happen".

I also realize that for some, talking about the victim at all save with pity for what happened to them is completely off the table. It is, such people claim, impossible to talk about how the victim might have reduced the chances of becoming a victim because that is only placing all responsibility on the victim, and possibly the blame too.

I don't expect to convince people with this point of view. However let me state for the record that:

1. I agree with RAINN's general position on this subject.

2. That means that the rapist or sexual assaulter is the one who is responsible for the crime in terms of guilt, which means that even if the victim was stupid, had been dressed in a sexually exciting way, was in a place that was unwise to be, the rapist/sexual assaulter is still the guilty party and it should not have an effect on their sentencing or accusation. I would agree that it is imnportant to emphasize this, and I have I believe consistently said so.

3. That we can focus on why people commit such acts and try to find ways to act as communities to protect people from the possibility--though I think that rape culture theory is a poor way to go about this.

4. I think that at the same time we can encourage people to reduce the likelihood of their being attacked. This doesn't mean that people should feel it was their fault that they were attacked, or that others should condemn them and say "well, they had it coming." Some don't want to live theirt lives with an awareness of danger. I'm very skeptical of this--I think the world is a dangerous place, civilization insulates people somewhat from that, but that's in and of itself a reduction of risk which isn't infallible.

If this is insufficient for some people, that's unfortunate. If they would like to discuss it without throwing accusations at me, that's welcome. If they insist on throwing the accusations I may not respond to all of them as they all appear to be the same moral outrage which I think indicates a poor understanding of my position rather than a real indictment of anything I've said.

That is not the issue I spent a little wile differentiating between recognizing factors that contribute to vulnerability and blaming the victim. You on the other hand dismissed several a poster who stated among other things their refusal to forgive the offender for preying on the vulnerable by saying that "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." There is no way to read that except as blaming the victim especially considering that immediately prior you were discussing why the offender's actions were not that bad.

The poster wrote that what she experienced was one of the worst things a person can experience, and I begged to differ and stand by that. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. It would be more appropriate to say "he did a bad thing to her'. You don't have to think it was one of the worst things ever to think it was a bad thing to do. I have said many times that I agree that victims should be helped as much as possible, and wold include supporting need for counseling.

as for their refusal to forgive, they're failing to understand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance, though it can lead to that. Forgiveness is refusal to take revenge. Forgiveness is not the same as being incautious or allowing a dangerous person into your life. It is releasing yourself from a need to visit the same suffering onto another. My concern here is about what we believe--if we can believe that a thief may not always be a thief, or a mruderer not always a killer, why not a rapist not always a rapist? Shouldn't that at least be examined?

The problem here is that people are piously stating that rape is an unthinkable crime, which is the standard doctrinal line, and I disagree, it's very thinkable. You just don't do it. In fact rape takes place in nature. The mating impulse is a powerful one. So in one sense, rape culture theorists get right the idea that it is society and the training of the individual conscience that prevents rape. They're wrong in their analysis though of why rapes happen and how to prevent them.

[Des-Bal]

The poster wrote that what she experienced was one of the worst things a person can experience, and I begged to differ and stand by that. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. It would be more appropriate to say "he did a bad thing to her'. You don't have to think it was one of the worst things ever to think it was a bad thing to do. I have said many times that I agree that victims should be helped as much as possible, and wold include supporting need for counseling.

as for their refusal to forgive, they're failing to understand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance, though it can lead to that. Forgiveness is refusal to take revenge. Forgiveness is not the same as being incautious or allowing a dangerous person into your life. It is releasing yourself from a need to visit the same suffering onto another. My concern here is about what we believe--if we can believe that a thief may not always be a thief, or a mruderer not always a killer, why not a rapist not always a rapist? Shouldn't that at least be examined?

The problem here is that people are piously stating that rape is an unthinkable crime, which is the standard doctrinal line, and I disagree, it's very thinkable. You just don't do it. In fact rape takes place in nature. The mating impulse is a powerful one. So in one sense, rape culture theorists get right the idea that it is society and the training of the individual conscience that prevents rape. They're wrong in their analysis though of why rapes happen and how to prevent them.

I believe there was a question of what a gish gallop is, this is a good example. The problem is that what you said to support your argument that what happened to the victim wasn't the worse thing, that Brock Turner deserved forgiveness, and that rape is not an unthinkable crime was "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." The problem is that you used that statement to support those arguments and apart from the other issues with what you've said that is what pissed people off.

[New Edom]

The poster wrote that what she experienced was one of the worst things a person can experience, and I begged to differ and stand by that. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. It would be more appropriate to say "he did a bad thing to her'. You don't have to think it was one of the worst things ever to think it was a bad thing to do. I have said many times that I agree that victims should be helped as much as possible, and wold include supporting need for counseling.

as for their refusal to forgive, they're failing to understand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance, though it can lead to that. Forgiveness is refusal to take revenge. Forgiveness is not the same as being incautious or allowing a dangerous person into your life. It is releasing yourself from a need to visit the same suffering onto another. My concern here is about what we believe--if we can believe that a thief may not always be a thief, or a mruderer not always a killer, why not a rapist not always a rapist? Shouldn't that at least be examined?

The problem here is that people are piously stating that rape is an unthinkable crime, which is the standard doctrinal line, and I disagree, it's very thinkable. You just don't do it. In fact rape takes place in nature. The mating impulse is a powerful one. So in one sense, rape culture theorists get right the idea that it is society and the training of the individual conscience that prevents rape. They're wrong in their analysis though of why rapes happen and how to prevent them.

I believe there was a question of what a gish gallop is, this is a good example. The problem is that what you said to support your argument that what happened to the victim wasn't the worse thing, that Brock Turner deserved forgiveness, and that rape is not an unthinkable crime was "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." The problem is that you used that statement to support those arguments and apart from the other issues with what you've said that is what pissed people off.

I said that we should explore what his guilt means, whether forgiveness is possible, and what forgivenes means. I pointed out the absurdity in suggesting that his character can never reform and then giving him only a few years in prison. I pointed out that the woman made herself more vulnerable by getting d=stupidly drunk at a wild party. And I pointed out that her sexual assault was not one of the worst things that can happen to a person, because it isn't. Something can be bad, regrettable or ugly without it being the worst thing ever. Something doesn't have to be the worst thing ever to be a crime, it simply has to violate their rights or cause them some harm. Anyway if people are pissed off, if they want they can take a step back and re-consider what I said.

[Des-Bal]

I said that we should explore what his guilt means, whether forgiveness is possible, and what forgivenes means. I pointed out the absurdity in suggesting that his character can never reform and then giving him only a few years in prison. I pointed out that the woman made herself more vulnerable by getting d=stupidly drunk at a wild party. And I pointed out that her sexual assault was not one of the worst things that can happen to a person, because it isn't. Something can be bad, regrettable or ugly without it being the worst thing ever. Something doesn't have to be the worst thing ever to be a crime, it simply has to violate their rights or cause them some harm. Anyway if people are pissed off, if they want they can take a step back and re-consider what I said.

You pointed out "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk" in order support those arguments. That is bad.

[New Edom]

I said that we should explore what his guilt means, whether forgiveness is possible, and what forgivenes means. I pointed out the absurdity in suggesting that his character can never reform and then giving him only a few years in prison. I pointed out that the woman made herself more vulnerable by getting d=stupidly drunk at a wild party. And I pointed out that her sexual assault was not one of the worst things that can happen to a person, because it isn't. Something can be bad, regrettable or ugly without it being the worst thing ever. Something doesn't have to be the worst thing ever to be a crime, it simply has to violate their rights or cause them some harm. Anyway if people are pissed off, if they want they can take a step back and re-consider what I said.

You pointed out "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk" in order support those arguments. That is bad.

And is that untrue?

[Des-Bal]

And is that untrue?

You forgot to pick up milk.
A relative says you're forgetful
You respond "you married a Jew."

The truth of the statement is completely irrelevant to the fact that the manner you employed it was utterly despicable. You didn't make a simple factual statement, you used it to dismiss arguments. What you did is victim blaming and it's part of what's being called rape culture.

[New Edom]

And is that untrue?

You forgot to pick up milk.
A relative says you're forgetful
You respond "you married a Jew."

The truth of the statement is completely irrelevant to the fact that the manner you employed it was utterly despicable. You didn't make a simple factual statement, you used it to dismiss arguments. What you did is victim blaming and it's part of what's being called rape culture.

Can you make a formal accusation stating that I condone rape?

[Des-Bal]

Can you make a formal accusation stating that I condone rape?

I am not saying you condone rape I am saying that your statement can only be interpreted reducing the defendants wrongdoing, or inherent evil, based on the victims conduct.

[New Edom]

Can you make a formal accusation stating that I condone rape?

I am not saying you condone rape I am saying that your statement can only be interpreted reducing the defendants wrongdoing, or inherent evil, based on the victims conduct.

Yes it can. But to do so, people have to accept the idea that everyone is to some extent responsible for their own safety. This is change dof course if someone deliberately tries to reduce your defenses to take advantage of you to your harm, but otherwise, you're responsible for looking after you to the best of your ability. This is simply how life works. Since we're social animals, we hope we can get others to cooperate with us about this, but all systems are subject to breach or breakdown.

[Des-Bal]

Yes it can.

No it can't, I've explained why it can't you've ignored it and repeated irrelevant information. Everyone who is allowing themselves to understand gets it and I consider the subject done.

[New Edom]

Yes it can.

No it can't, I've explained why it can't you've ignored it and repeated irrelevant information. Everyone who is allowing themselves to understand gets it and I consider the subject done.

Look, just because you say it can't doesn't mean you have some god like ability to say so. I don't agree with you and I find your position unconvincing. I will also not accept your attempts to smear my reputation and I am going to be wary of such in future. Using common prejudice and people's emotionalism to sway them is a common trick, but I'm not going to let it pass. In future I also intend to be cautious about even engaging you in conversation because of this. Thank you. I agree that we are done.

[Farnhamia]

Rape culture came into focus because of radical feminists. I find it fascinating that modern mainstream '3rd Wave Intersectional' feminists fail often to recognize their own radical origins and assume that radicals are more extreme than they are--it has become normalized.

One of my serious issues with the term is the people who wrote books and made films about it. Mary Daly, Susan Brownmiller, Margaret Lazarus and others. This movement has had as its central notion the idea that men are basically hostile towards women. What's interesting is that in spite of this position it captured so much imagination and became canon for the modern era. Now people hardly question these ideas at all, yet they are not based on scholarly research that was seriously peer reviewed by people outside of the movement. It has simply become 'true'.

So in the present century, the majority of feminists as far as I can tell accept their ideas, and many who support women's rights do as well. This is a revolutionary thing; it is the equivalent to the Nicene Creed for feminism. However the genius of the 3rd Wave is that they have put it in the terms that are popular for the 21st Century: it's softened, sentimental and reduced to a series of sound bytes. So an old fashioned 2nd Wave radfem like say Chessmistress around here sounds jarring to them--she is blatantly adversarial towards masculinity and and old fashioned enemy of patriarchy. They have created a pretence that fighting rape culture doesn't really involve anything adversarial and combative.

Well, that's not true. Activists opposed to rape culture are generally opposed to due process, democracy and freedom of expression, but the modern ones are really good at making it seem like they're just concerned for a good cause. Their main targets are people who know next to nothing about feminism but want to be good to women and LGBTQ whatever people.

In other words: both the term itself as well as what it implies are complete bogus made up fantasy, which exists solely in the minds of said "feminists". I have to admit I never met any of them IRL but what I find somewhat disturbing is the fact that I have heard of such people and their delusions. It's a sad fact that such delusions are being preached in this day and age. Why can't they take their delusional and distorted views and export them to the more backward parts of the world? I'm pretty sure the dunegoons would listen and instantaneously become converts.

---

Atheist
Pro second amendment.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

[Dalvius]

I think rape culture is bullshit. It's just a term for modern day feminists and SJWs to call more attention to themselves.

But that's my .02$