Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[Kernen]

Maybe murder victims wouldn't have been so vulnerable if they carried a gun. Maybe children shouldn't be so vulnerable to physical abuse by adults. Maybe the workers in the World Trade Center should have made themselves less vulnerable to incoming airplanes.

It is not the victim's fault for being targeted by a human predator. The victim should have a right to be drunk and remain unmolested, just like any person should have the right to be unable to protect themselves and remain unmugged.

While it is utterly fucking abominable to assign blame to a victim you aren't making good comparisons. The victim in the Brock Turner case did something very foolish, she voluntarily drank to the point of total intoxication and comparing that to a person not carrying a gun, being a child, or not being prepared for a terrorist attack is fundamentally dishonest.
A person should be able to stand in dark alley with their headphones on counting out their life savings and be totally unharmed, they should be able to do that. The problem is that doing that absolutely will make them a target for the worst kind of people. We need to acknowledge that yes what a person does can make them vulnerable but the fact that people prey on vulnerable people makes their actions more despicable not less.

That they are an impaired target is irrelevant. They do not compel violence against themselves, violence is brought against them without invitation. One has the right to be vulnerable, be it by intoxication or other situation. That does not confer an invitation to incite violence.

[Des-Bal]

That they are an impaired target is irrelevant. They do not compel violence against themselves, violence is brought against them without invitation. One has the right to be vulnerable, be it by intoxication or other situation. That does not confer an invitation to incite violence.

It is to people looking to exploit weakness and quite frankly your assurances that one has the right to be vulnerable is probably cold comfort to a rape victim who was targeted specifically because they were drunk. What you have a right to do and what's safe to do are different things.

[Galloism]

New Edom, shame on you. I can't believe you went there.

I can't believe you just said that.

This may sound flippant, but I'm actually quite serious. Go to your room and think about what you've done.

Are you really so shocked? It was an inevitable conclusion based on the arguments made by New Edom. The only shocking act is that it was admitted so readily.

/sigh

I had higher hopes for him at one point. I'll admit I haven't read all his arguments.

[Kernen]

That they are an impaired target is irrelevant. They do not compel violence against themselves, violence is brought against them without invitation. One has the right to be vulnerable, be it by intoxication or other situation. That does not confer an invitation to incite violence.

It is to people looking to exploit weakness and quite frankly your assurances that one has the right to be vulnerable is probably cold comfort to a rape victim who was targeted specifically because they were drunk. What you have a right to do and what's safe to do are different things.

This is perilously close to blaming the victim. Was it unwise? Certainly. That doesn't mean that the victim bears any responsibility for her violation, any more so than if the violation was one of property and safety in a mugging. By treating the responsibility for not being raped as being on the woman to stay sober, we absolve the guilty party of their responsibility, even in part. The individual at fault is entirely the one who choses to take advantage of another. There is no reasonable example of a situation where rape is appropriate, regardless of the impairment of the victim.

[Des-Bal]

This is perilously close to blaming the victim. Was it unwise? Certainly. That doesn't mean that the victim bears any responsibility for her violation, any more so than if the violation was one of property and safety in a mugging. By treating the responsibility for not being raped as being on the woman to stay sober, we absolve the guilty party of their actions, even in part. The individual at fault is entirely the one who choses to take advantage of another. There is no reasonable example of a situation where rape is appropriate, regardless of the impairment of the victim.

I agree with except the idea that this is close to victim blaming. You lock your door, you let someone know you're going downtown, and if you're going to a party you don't get completely wasted. Talking about safety is not blaming the victim, acknowledging the victim's conduct was part of the reason they were targeted is not blaming the victim, if something is true then dismissing it on any grounds is probably bad.

[Kernen]

This is perilously close to blaming the victim. Was it unwise? Certainly. That doesn't mean that the victim bears any responsibility for her violation, any more so than if the violation was one of property and safety in a mugging. By treating the responsibility for not being raped as being on the woman to stay sober, we absolve the guilty party of their actions, even in part. The individual at fault is entirely the one who choses to take advantage of another. There is no reasonable example of a situation where rape is appropriate, regardless of the impairment of the victim.

I agree with except the idea that this is close to victim blaming. You lock your door, you let someone know you're going downtown, and if you're going to a party you don't get completely wasted. Talking about safety is not blaming the victim, acknowledging the victim's conduct was part of the reason they were targeted is not blaming the victim, if something is true then dismissing it on any grounds is probably bad.

The responsibility shouldn't be on women to prevent their rape. Suggesting that the victim suffered this violation because of a failure in her part really does absolve the rapist of some of his responsibility, because it places on the victims shoulders the burden of preventing his actions. That is a burden no woman should be expected to bear in the course of justice.

Are we all, ultimately, responsible for our safety to a certain degree while in a world where violence is common? Sure. But when we assess blame for the act, we do the victim a disservice in the extreme if we lay it anywhere but on the attacker.

Failing to provide for your own safety isn't an excuse for others, and we need to be careful not to treat it as such.

[Des-Bal]

The responsibility shouldn't be on women to prevent their rape. Suggesting that the victim suffered this violation because of a failure in her part really does absolve the rapist of some of his responsibility, because it places on the victims shoulders the burden of preventing his actions. That is a burden no woman should be expected to bear in the course of justice.

Are we all, ultimately, responsible for our safety to a certain degree while in a world where violence is common? Sure. But when we assess blame for the act, we do the victim a disservice in the extreme if we lay it anywhere but on the attacker.

Failing to provide for your own safety isn't an excuse for others, and we need to be careful not to treat it as such.

I'm not going to sit here repeating that I'm not assigning blame to victims just to have you not listen. Instead why don't you tell me if you agree or disagree with the following tow statements.

A perpetrator may prefer to target someone they believe is vulnerable.
A person's actions can make them, in appearance or in fact, more or less vulnerable.

[New Edom]

Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk.

New Edom, shame on you. I can't believe you went there.

I can't believe you just said that.

This may sound flippant, but I'm actually quite serious. Go to your room and think about what you've done.

Why? I'm not justifying her being raped. I've said probably hundreds of times that the decision to commit a crime lies in the hands and mind of the criminal. However it's still true: she wouldn't have been so vulnerable to him if she hadn't gotten so drunk at the party.

[Des-Bal]

Why? I'm not justifying her being raped. I've said probably hundreds of times that the decision to commit a crime lies in the hands and mind of the criminal. However it's still true: she wouldn't have been so vulnerable to him if she hadn't gotten so drunk at the party.

The context in which you brought it up is deeply problematic.

[Nazeroth]

If you are a soft target you are just that, easy prey.

It's cute when everyone says " oh well it dosn't matter, he shouldn't have touched her"

well you know what, the world isn't a fantasy land, people are ignorant and WILL target those they feel represent easy prey.

If you dress and appear in a manner that makes you look easy then invariably you present yourself as such. Now OBVIOUSLY it is the criminals fault, however, the way you conduct yourself creates your representation. If you dress like a gangbanger guess what? People assume you are a gang banger.

It's called reality, and it can be cold.

[New Edom]

If you are a soft target you are just that, easy prey.

It's cute when everyone says " oh well it dosn't matter, he shouldn't have touched her"

well you know what, the world isn't a fantasy land, people are ignorant and WILL target those they feel represent easy prey.

If you dress and appear in a manner that makes you look easy then invariably you present yourself as such. Now OBVIOUSLY it is the criminals fault, however, the way you conduct yourself creates your representation. If you dress like a gangbanger guess what? People assume you are a gang banger.

It's called reality, and it can be cold.

Exactly. Try being the wrong race in a tough neighborhood, wear indications that you're the wrong European nationality with another nearby where there are old angers between people and see how that turns out. You're just minding your own business? They're just clothes? Guess what, the bad guys don't care.

So yeah, good people can try to protect someone who acts like an oblivious little kid, but it's that one time when they're not there and you're still acting like an oblivious little kid that it matters...

[New Edom]

Why? I'm not justifying her being raped. I've said probably hundreds of times that the decision to commit a crime lies in the hands and mind of the criminal. However it's still true: she wouldn't have been so vulnerable to him if she hadn't gotten so drunk at the party.

The context in which you brought it up is deeply problematic.

It's not intended to blame the girl. Obviously it's the rapist's fault. But look, if you're an adult, or a parent of kids, the vulnerability is something you can do something about. Would you rather people didn't take precautions?

[Alsheb]

You wanna see rape culture? Go to the middle east or Germany. You'll have a fun time there, SJW dummies

Except for they hang rapists in most Middle Eastern countries. That's a lot more punishment than three months in jail.

[Charmera]

You wanna see rape culture? Go to the middle east or Germany. You'll have a fun time there, SJW dummies

Except for they hang rapists in most Middle Eastern countries. That's a lot more punishment than three months in jail.

Also Germany has been working on their poor rape laws. But even then I wouldn't call it a "rape culture".

[Des-Bal]

It's not intended to blame the girl. Obviously it's the rapist's fault. But look, if you're an adult, or a parent of kids, the vulnerability is something you can do something about. Would you rather people didn't take precautions?

You were presented with a decent sized paragraph worth of point by point responses to one of your posts. It included one line stating that Turner's sentence was inappropriate because of the poster's desire to protect the vulnerable. You ignored everything in the response except for this line and responded only that "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." Don't play semantic games, that was entirely inappropriate and you know it was.

[New Edom]

It's not intended to blame the girl. Obviously it's the rapist's fault. But look, if you're an adult, or a parent of kids, the vulnerability is something you can do something about. Would you rather people didn't take precautions?

You were presented with a decent sized paragraph worth of point by point responses to one of your posts. It included one line stating that Turner's sentence was inappropriate because of the poster's desire to protect the vulnerable. You ignored everything in the response except for this line and responded only that "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." Don't play semantic games, that was entirely inappropriate and you know it was.

Try that again without the lecturing and I'll consider responding to the other stuff. I do not appreciate having my integrity called into question and I will not tolerate it by responding to demands.

[Des-Bal]

Try that again without the lecturing and I'll consider responding to the other stuff. I do not appreciate having my integrity called into question and I will not tolerate it by responding to demands.

I absolve you of any obligation to further explain your views on this issue for my benefit, I feel fairly confident that I've heard you state and restate most of what you have to say. I have no opinion on your integrity, I will say however that your opinions on this issue are not okay. They are bad, they are nonsensical, and they have been consistently called out as such.

[Costa Fierro]

You wanna see rape culture? Go to the middle east or Germany. You'll have a fun time there, SJW dummies

Except for they hang rapists in most Middle Eastern countries. That's a lot more punishment than three months in jail.

Seven countries in the Middle East have rape as among the crimes which carry the death sentence. If you want to be pedantic, two of those countries (Iran and Saudi Arabia) execute people for being victims of rape.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

You were presented with a decent sized paragraph worth of point by point responses to one of your posts. It included one line stating that Turner's sentence was inappropriate because of the poster's desire to protect the vulnerable. You ignored everything in the response except for this line and responded only that "Maybe she wouldn't have been so vulnerable if she had not gotten so drunk." Don't play semantic games, that was entirely inappropriate and you know it was.

Try that again without the lecturing and I'll consider responding to the other stuff. I do not appreciate having my integrity called into question and I will not tolerate it by responding to demands.

What you have said excuses rapists for their crimes. You are standing up for rapists to have a right to rape those who are incapacitated. You are placing the blame for her rape on her. Should you go outside today and be withdrawing cash from an ATM and get jumped, should I shrug and say "Perhaps you shouldn't have been handling cash in the open"?

Just because you still believe the rapist was wrong doesn't make your statement any less disgusting. Do not place the blame for rape on the victim.

[Frenline Delpha]

Why? I'm not justifying her being raped. I've said probably hundreds of times that the decision to commit a crime lies in the hands and mind of the criminal. However it's still true: she wouldn't have been so vulnerable to him if she hadn't gotten so drunk at the party.

The context in which you brought it up is deeply problematic.

"Problematic"

That word...

[FelrikTheDeleted]

The context in which you brought it up is deeply problematic.

"Problematic"

That word...

[Frenline Delpha]

"Problematic"

That word...

May I ask what that picture is a picture of?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

May I ask what that picture is a picture of?

I believe the man in the photo is h3h3, and he is having a seizure most likely because he has been triggered.

[Frenline Delpha]

May I ask what that picture is a picture of?

I believe the man in the photo is h3h3, and he is having a seizure most likely because he has been triggered.

Lol.

[Charmera]

Try that again without the lecturing and I'll consider responding to the other stuff. I do not appreciate having my integrity called into question and I will not tolerate it by responding to demands.

What you have said excuses rapists for their crimes. You are standing up for rapists to have a right to rape those who are incapacitated. You are placing the blame for her rape on her. Should you go outside today and be withdrawing cash from an ATM and get jumped, should I shrug and say "Perhaps you shouldn't have been handling cash in the open"?

Just because you still believe the rapist was wrong doesn't make your statement any less disgusting. Do not place the blame for rape on the victim.

Uhhhh. I think we should dial this back a bit.
Though I don't agree by any means with what Edom said, I don't think he's "excusing" the person at all. Or at least I don't think that's what he meant. Neither is he standing up for rapist.
And yeah, I do think he was off base with his remark. Partially because it's somewhat irresponsible considering the nature of rape to say "Oh, she could have done something different." (Though I do hold that it's different for different crimes) and partially because we shouldn't give into fear and also partially because it rings of some less than nice things some people say about people who get raped...

What I'm saying is that Edom's words were poorly chosen or at least somewhat undiplomatic and insensitive, but I don't think he deserves to have EVERYONE on the thread coming down on him for it in such an aggressive manner.