Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[New Edom]

Really? Can you demonstrate that a majority of feminists don't support rape culture theory?

I don't think the onus is on me to prove anything. I'm disagreeing with your notion that they do.

You're making a pretty bold assertion to disprove mine. So I'll remind you that I pointed out that the voices supporting this theory could be a minority or a majority but they set policy. They set curriculums. This means that even if they are a minority they have a lot of influence. So if you're goign ti disagree I want proof that it somehow matters when the patrons of this theory include heads of state and government, university department heads, news editors and activist leaders.

[Alvecia]

I don't think the onus is on me to prove anything. I'm disagreeing with your notion that they do.

You're making a pretty bold assertion to disprove mine. So I'll remind you that I pointed out that the voices supporting this theory could be a minority or a majority but they set policy. They set curriculums. This means that even if they are a minority they have a lot of influence. So if you're goign ti disagree I want proof that it somehow matters when the patrons of this theory include heads of state and government, university department heads, news editors and activist leaders.

I've never attempted to disprove your assertions to the best of my knowledge. I've simply cast doubt on the magnitude of them. Said doubts are enough that I cannot in good faith take your opinion to be truth.

[New Edom]

I think my problem with how you frame your argument, and I don't know how many might agree with me, is your blanket use of the term "feminist".

It's who you identify all of the problems with and it how many here would identify themselves, myself included, yet it is not a representative term.

It's like if I used "racist" and "right-winger's" interchangeably because all racists I know of are right wing.

That's a part of it for me, yes.

The rest is just irritation at having yet another thread on this, and at all the straw man-laden "culture wars" bullshit in general, and at the fact that people don't get (or refuse to get) that while they may not have the letter of the law (for the most part) behind them, people who condone or turn a blind eye to rape still very much are an issue.

Like how prison rape is laughed off, or those cases a while back of asshats on college campuses going around doing pro-rape chants, just to take two obvious examples.

Or the shear amount of ignorance and misinformation on what is and is not consent (and that's not even talking about what people feel the laws should be, just the letter of the law).

To the point that I think it would be entirely reasonable to have a test on what legally constitutes consent which one must score 100% to graduate from high school (and if you think demanding 100% is unreasonable, you don't get to be 95% not a rapist- under the law, you either are, or you aren't).

Really? So do you think that feminism is doing an adequate job of addressing female abuse of others? Do you think that consent conversations and teachings are working well or that they'll deal with the issue of campus rape for instance? Do you think it's possible that other methods of dealign with rape which actually do take rape seriously but do not focus on rape culture could possibly be considered as alternatives without accusing their proponents of misogyny?

[New Edom]

Why do feminists insist that any discussion of sexual morality on the parto f women is victim blaming rather than responsibility for ones own actions?

Of all the flailing desperate and frankly disturbing things people manage to do to find ways to avoid confronting rape or how it is viewed in our culture this one, this persistent thread, this one angers me the most. Outright angers me. That it is almost always put forth by men trying to 'defend' men is salt on the fucking wound.

Stop.

For fuck's sake stop. Stop insulting me and other men. Yes, insulting. Quit making men out to be rutting fucking hounds incapable of controlling themselves. This is far and away a worse thing than any feminist your dark little imagination has ever said about men. The idea that a pair of short shorts or a little flash of boob would remove my obligation as a member of society and an adult human being who is in charge of my own impulse control is insulting. It's dumb. It's nauseating. Fucking stop it. Not for women, you clearly don't give a shit about them, stop it for the men that you are insulting to their faces every fucking time. Knock it off.

I am in control of my impulses and regardless of 'temptation' any loss of that control is on me, full stop. Because I'm a goddamn adult.

So wait...do you mean that self defense classes for women encourage victim blaming?
Do you mean that encouraging situational awareness encouarges victim blaming?
Do you mean that even if someone is called stupid for getting into a bad situation that that automatically means that the criminal who attacked them is nevertheless not 100% responsible for their own choices and actions?

Because I don't think any of those things. I think that encouraging women to have self defense and situational awareness is as important as it is for men to have. I would like all children to be taught this. I also think that even if you do something incredibly stupid it doesn't justfy someone treating you in a criminal manner--but it doesn't make your actions any less stupid. Acting intelligently int he face of potential risk is just being smart, that's all. It's no different from driving or going into bear country.

[New Edom]

You're making a pretty bold assertion to disprove mine. So I'll remind you that I pointed out that the voices supporting this theory could be a minority or a majority but they set policy. They set curriculums. This means that even if they are a minority they have a lot of influence. So if you're goign ti disagree I want proof that it somehow matters when the patrons of this theory include heads of state and government, university department heads, news editors and activist leaders.

I've never attempted to disprove your assertions to the best of my knowledge. I've simply cast doubt on the magnitude of them. Said doubts are enough that I cannot in good faith take your opinion to be truth.

Then I'm going to take what you just wrote as an irrelevant criticism. It's like if someone said they didn't believe evolution worked 'because'. You're entitled to your opinion but I don't see a point in continuing this line of discussion if you will not offer even the small amount of backup I did. If you'd like to continue then offer some proof.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a part of it for me, yes.

The rest is just irritation at having yet another thread on this, and at all the straw man-laden "culture wars" bullshit in general, and at the fact that people don't get (or refuse to get) that while they may not have the letter of the law (for the most part) behind them, people who condone or turn a blind eye to rape still very much are an issue.

Like how prison rape is laughed off, or those cases a while back of asshats on college campuses going around doing pro-rape chants, just to take two obvious examples.

Or the shear amount of ignorance and misinformation on what is and is not consent (and that's not even talking about what people feel the laws should be, just the letter of the law).

To the point that I think it would be entirely reasonable to have a test on what legally constitutes consent which one must score 100% to graduate from high school (and if you think demanding 100% is unreasonable, you don't get to be 95% not a rapist- under the law, you either are, or you aren't).

Really? So do you think that feminism is doing an adequate job of addressing female abuse of others?

I said nothing of the sort. I offered no judgement on that either way.

In fact, because I am not a bigot, I would not presume to make one judgement and apply it to all members of a movement so large and diverse as feminism.

Some feminists are idiots and extremists. Some are decent, intelligent people who have valid points to make. Unfortunately, this is a distinction people like you seem unable, or unwilling, to make.

However, trying to deflect my criticisms by switching the topic to attacking the group of your choice rather than providing an actual rebuttal will not work.

Do you think that consent conversations and teachings are working well or that they'll deal with the issue of campus rape for instance?

Clearly I do not, if you read my actual posts.

Do you think it's possible that other methods of dealign with rape which actually do take rape seriously but do not focus on rape culture could possibly be considered as alternatives without accusing their proponents of misogyny?

Of course their are other legitimate approaches. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at rape culture. It means that we should attack the issue on multiple fronts.

Spare me your straw men, and come back when you have a real argument.

[New Edom]

Really? So do you think that feminism is doing an adequate job of addressing female abuse of others?

I said nothing of the sort. I offered no judgement on that either way.

In fact, because I am not a bigot, I would not presume to make one judgement and apply it to all members of a movement so large and diverse as feminism.

Some feminists are idiots and extremists. Some are decent, intelligent people who have valid points to make. Unfortunately, this is a distinction people like you seem unable, or unwilling, to make.

However, trying to deflect my criticisms by switching the topic to attacking the group of your choice rather than providing an actual rebuttal will not work.

Do you think that consent conversations and teachings are working well or that they'll deal with the issue of campus rape for instance?

Clearly I do not, if you read my actual posts.

Do you think it's possible that other methods of dealign with rape which actually do take rape seriously but do not focus on rape culture could possibly be considered as alternatives without accusing their proponents of misogyny?

Of course their are other legitimate approaches. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at rape culture. It means that we should attack the issue on multiple fronts.

Spare me your straw men, and come back when you have a real argument.

Yeah I proposed one legitimate alternative. Why don't you discuss that instead of bitching that this thread exists? There's a link to RAINN's proposals about how to deal with rape on campus in the OP. However mainstream feminists have shot this proposal down, and continue to insist that only their narrative is acceptable. So I think that this needs to have attention drawn to it and I will continue to do so. If you don't care and don't agree, then you can always go post somewhere else.

[Community Values]

I don't trivialize rape. Whenever I hear the word, it feels wrong. My friends feel the same way. My family feels the same way. Most of my acquaintances feel the same way. Most news sources I read feel the same way (I'm pretty sure not even ROK supports rape). Most senators and people in power feel the same way. The only people trivializing rape are the ones accusing all men of being rapists.

If there is something about the culture that somehow forces me and most people I know to abuse and rape women, I'd be surprised. An example would be cool.

[Wallenburg]

Yeah I proposed one legitimate alternative. Why don't you discuss that instead of bitching that this thread exists? There's a link to RAINN's proposals about how to deal with rape on campus in the OP. However mainstream feminists have shot this proposal down, and continue to insist that only their narrative is acceptable. So I think that this needs to have attention drawn to it and I will continue to do so. If you don't care and don't agree, then you can always go post somewhere else.

Not once in that post did they complain about the existence of this thread. How about you look for something other than strawmen to lean upon? Also:

Then don't post or read it.

"Agree with me or fuck off" isn't an argument.

[Neutraligon]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

[The Alexanderians]

Not in the West. /thread

This^

Seconded

I can't help but find it hypocritical for some feminists to claim there is rape culture. That western culture condoms rape and turns a blind eye when they themselves have enabled female-on-male rape to happen more frequently and have turn a blind eye to it.

[Estruia]

While it may not be as prevalent as some would make it seem, rape is still a very serious problem that our society is still dealing with. Whether we want to admit it or not, we have a culture that promotes sexually-dominant masculinity, which leads to a "I won't take no for an answer" mentality amongst a certain percentage of 20-something males in clubs, bars, parties, etc., that DOES lead to an alarmingly high rape/sexual assault-related crime rate (anything above zero is alarmingly high and inexcusable.)

[New Edom]

Yeah I proposed one legitimate alternative. Why don't you discuss that instead of bitching that this thread exists? There's a link to RAINN's proposals about how to deal with rape on campus in the OP. However mainstream feminists have shot this proposal down, and continue to insist that only their narrative is acceptable. So I think that this needs to have attention drawn to it and I will continue to do so. If you don't care and don't agree, then you can always go post somewhere else.

Not once in that post did they complain about the existence of this thread. How about you look for something other than strawmen to lean upon? Also:

"Agree with me or fuck off" isn't an argument.

I don't care to have arguments with people who are just insulting me. Including you.

[New Edom]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

These things exist. I am reluctant to call it rape culture because it is like having a war over a phrase. What I'd rather is that there were mroe discussions that de-genderd the word itself and focused more on the kind of behaviours that take place. I think that women's actions in this vein are more subtle on average, but I think that insisting that it is overwhelmingly women and girls who are victims and so let's focus almost entirely on them doesn't help.

[Quokkastan]

Is there really a rape culture?

Wikipedia says: "In feminist theory, rape culture is a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists. There is disagreement over what defines rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to exhibit rape culture."

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

[Galloism]

Is there really a rape culture?

Wikipedia says: "In feminist theory, rape culture is a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists. There is disagreement over what defines rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to exhibit rape culture."

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

Interesting bit of trivia:

The term rape culture was first used to refer to the culture surrounding prisons and rape, but was then appropriated by radical feminists and then by less radical feminists to refer to society at large.

[The Alexanderians]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

These things exist. I am reluctant to call it rape culture because it is like having a war over a phrase. What I'd rather is that there were mroe discussions that de-genderd the word itself and focused more on the kind of behaviours that take place. I think that women's actions in this vein are more subtle on average, but I think that insisting that it is overwhelmingly women and girls who are victims and so let's focus almost entirely on them doesn't help.

The closest I'd say we have to a rape culture is that feminist have a rape culture. They obsess over it, they trivialize it, they perpetuate it. But really rape culture is just a loaded term to incite emotion and fear.

[New Edom]

I don't trivialize rape. Whenever I hear the word, it feels wrong. My friends feel the same way. My family feels the same way. Most of my acquaintances feel the same way. Most news sources I read feel the same way (I'm pretty sure not even ROK supports rape). Most senators and people in power feel the same way. The only people trivializing rape are the ones accusing all men of being rapists.

If there is something about the culture that somehow forces me and most people I know to abuse and rape women, I'd be surprised. An example would be cool.

And you will encounter jerks, selfish people and sociopaths, but they are not the norm.

[Equalaria]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

[The Alexanderians]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

You say this like it's different for men.

[Galloism]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

Actually, most men who are raped are raped outside of prison by women, and men and women are raped at roughly equal rates year to year - at least among adults.

Among those below 18, that's a much harder question.

[Neutraligon]

Yes there is such a thing as rape culture. Look at the jokes about prison rape. Look at men being told they cannot be raped, that men who are raped are just weak, or that men who are raped by women are just lucky.

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

[Equalaria]

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

Actually, most men who are raped are raped outside of prison by women, and men and women are raped at roughly equal rates year to year - at least among adults.

Among those below 18, that's a much harder question.

That's absurd. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of sex abuse.

[Galloism]

That's such a pathetic parralell. People do bad things, get convicted and go to prison. Women who are raped are innocent and don't do anything to provoke such affronts to thier bodily sovereignty. It's somethings that is ridiculous to even try and equate.

Are you telling me that men who are raped are never innocent? And excuse me, but what person, regardless of what they have done, deserves to be raped?

Persons with penises.

[Quokkastan]

Rape is pervasive and normalized, huh?

"Don't drop the soap?"

Seems to me that American society normalizes prison rape to the point where it is a frequent subject of humor.

Interesting bit of trivia:

The term rape culture was first used to refer to the culture surrounding prisons and rape, but was then appropriated by radical feminists and then by less radical feminists to refer to society at large.

Well, if it was Japan they'd have a fucking point, wouldn't they?

I think sexual violence against women has been sufficiently stigmatized in the West. Which isn't to say that it doesn't still make it's ugly face known now and again, but we've reached a point where fighting it has become confusing for a lack of clear targets.