To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Ifreann]

They're associated with something even more frightening and worse, honestly.

Pee Wee Herman.



All we can do is make it a legal right. (Well - all you should do, anyway. CAN do is another question.)

Some Christian girls aren't allowed to wear short shorts. Should we require them to wear them?

These Christian girls should obviously have the right to wear short shorts.
Short shorts are mainstream in Europe and part of our culture.

A burkini isn't. Wearing one has a consequence and means: "I don't belong to your culture". And that's fine, but it doesn't give you the right to provoke. If people don't like some culture, just leave and find yourself a culture that's more comfortable to you.

Like I said as a Hells Angel you can't wear a Bandidos jacket. Nevertheless Bandidos jackets are not illegal according the law. But they are certainly not accepted by the subculture of the Hells Angels.

If you really want to wear a Bandidos jacket then it's more wise to leave the Hells Angels and join the Bandidos.

Like it or not, every society, every culture, every subculture has written and unwritten rules. Some could be stupid and weird, still you have to respect them. And if you don’t you have basically 2 options:

• Leave
• Undergo the consequences

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I know I’ve to wear a veil in public. Even if I don’t like it, I have to do.
It’s not on me to protest by not wearing one. It’s not on me to push my culture inside their culture.
But I have the option not to visit Saudi Arabia.

There's no negative connotation with wearing green and many non-Irish people wear green.

Most GAA jerseys aren't green. Mine is white.

If a burkini was mainstream in Europe then it would be no problem at all. But it isn't.

GAA isn't mainstream in Europe. It's mainstream in Ireland, and has a presence in London and New York, and a bit in Australia, all places where there are large Irish diaspora communities. I'll ask again. Are we pushing our culture on people by doing so?

Maybe you like swastika's. But when you’re wearing a shirt with a big visible swastika print and wearing it in some Jewish quarter, you just have no respect for the culture of another.

However, you can wear a full Gestapo suit, by instance in a simulation wargame.
At such, It’s all about context.

One person's freedom ends where another's begins.

So in the context of a beach, should I be permitted to wear clothing typical of Irish culture, outside of Ireland? Should France be passing laws restricting the wearing of GAA jerseys on beaches?

[Olerand]

These Christian girls should obviously have the right to wear short shorts.
Short shorts are mainstream in Europe and part of our culture.

A burkini isn't. Wearing one has a consequence and means: "I don't belong to your culture". And that's fine, but it doesn't give you the right to provoke. If people don't like some culture, just leave and find yourself a culture that's more comfortable to you.

Like I said as a Hells Angel you can't wear a Bandidos jacket. Nevertheless Bandidos jackets are not illegal according the law. But they are certainly not accepted by the subculture of the Hells Angels.

If you really want to wear a Bandidos jacket then it's more wise to leave the Hells Angels and join the Bandidos.

Like it or not, every society, every culture, every subculture has written and unwritten rules. Some could be stupid and weird, still you have to respect them. And if you don’t you have basically 2 options:

• Leave
• Undergo the consequences

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I know I’ve to wear a veil in public. Even if I don’t like it, I have to do.
It’s not on me to protest by not wearing one. It’s not on me to push my culture inside their culture.
But I have the option not to visit Saudi Arabia.

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

While Saudi Arabia is a bad comparison, there certainly isn't a Muslim country in the world today that can compare to us.

[Liriena]

That's great, but I stand by my opposition to dealing with such an issue in a patronizing and unilateral fashion.

What other fashion is there, other than unilateral rejection, of the idea that an uncovered woman walking down the street and who elicits lust in a man who sees her has sinned and will be divinely punished, which gives credence to the idea that uncovered women are ripe for sexual assault/harassment?

I genuinely want to know what middle ground there can be between an ideology that demands every summer that municipal pools be segregated for "decency" and a set of values that says men and women are equal?

I believe the middle ground lies in making the case for gender equality without framing it as an issue of superior and inferior cultural values, but rather encouraging a more critical mindset and leaving in the hands of the women in question the power to make the deeper changes happen on their terms, rather than those of an external entity.

[Internationalist Bastard]

You know what? No I wanna go to Saudi Arabia in a Bikini, and see how many people applaud me for challenging their society

[Nacesa Plana]

Mostly it are fundamentalist Muslim men pushing the burkini.

Why are they not wearing one by themselves?
Their half-naked bodies could increase my lust too. They should protect themselves against sex hungry women! lol

[Liriena]

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

While Saudi Arabia is a bad comparison, there certainly isn't a Muslim country in the world today that can compare to us.

Well, Erdogan has worked very hard to undermine the Turkish state's laïcité.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Mostly it are fundamentalist Muslim men pushing the burkini.

Why are they not wearing one by themselves?
Their half-naked bodies could increase my lust too. They should protect themselves against sex hungry women! lol

But, it's also women who want to wear it pushing for it

[Olerand]

What other fashion is there, other than unilateral rejection, of the idea that an uncovered woman walking down the street and who elicits lust in a man who sees her has sinned and will be divinely punished, which gives credence to the idea that uncovered women are ripe for sexual assault/harassment?

I genuinely want to know what middle ground there can be between an ideology that demands every summer that municipal pools be segregated for "decency" and a set of values that says men and women are equal?

I believe the middle ground lies in making the case for gender equality without framing it as an issue of superior and inferior cultural values, but rather encouraging a more critical mindset and leaving in the hands of the women in question the power to make the deeper changes happen on their terms, rather than those of an external entity.

How do you encourage a critical mindset? We do not control the conversation in the home, at the mosque, amongst friends at the stairs of your building, or anywhere outside of the school and media. Both present the case for gender equality as it is made for non-Muslim French society, regardless of cultural values. But the message is entirely different at home, in the personal places of a Muslim woman's life. How do we shape the conversation there? Especially as the countries of birth of these women's parents, which the families remain attached to, and whose mosques are probably funded and manned by, continue to slide into ever more regressive attitudes?

[Uxupox]

You know what? No I wanna go to Saudi Arabia in a Bikini, and see how many people applaud me for challenging their society

Execution on the spot.

[Olerand]

While Saudi Arabia is a bad comparison, there certainly isn't a Muslim country in the world today that can compare to us.

Well, Erdogan has worked very hard to undermine the Turkish state's laïcité.

Turkey could not compare to us before Erdogan either. It could do better, of course, but not compare. And with Erdogan now, and his women should stay at home and make at least three babies motto, it certainly is no comparison either.

[Kelinfort]

To me, even indulging the 'debate' about whether burkinis are safe on a beach amounts to yielding to reactionary narratives. This entire spectacle is phony. What you have is mass panic inspired by terrorism being stoked by France's provit-driven, unprincipled media, and French oligarchs glomming on the hysteria to extract political capital and distract from their own shitty policies. Muslim women's sartorial choices are just the convenient scapegoat. French whites will burn the witch but it won't increase their security one iota.

Except this is a battle for and by the left too. Not everything in the English-speaking world can translate into other countries too. Although, I'm sure many will argue that French leftists are only imperialists in disguise because after all, since when do Muslim women deserve the same rights as Western women too?

I don't see an issue if it's an individual choice. Unfortunately, there are some who despite clear alternatives, will prefer fundamentalism and wearing restrictive clothing.

[Internationalist Bastard]

You know what? No I wanna go to Saudi Arabia in a Bikini, and see how many people applaud me for challenging their society

Execution on the spot.

Oh no, they'd torture me first cuz I'm not a woman yet. Maybe a Crucifixion.
I'm saying in the west who'd applaud it.

[Olerand]

Except this is a battle for and by the left too. Not everything in the English-speaking world can translate into other countries too. Although, I'm sure many will argue that French leftists are only imperialists in disguise because after all, since when do Muslim women deserve the same rights as Western women too?

I don't see an issue if it's an individual choice. Unfortunately, there are some who despite clear alternatives, will prefer fundamentalism and wearing restrictive clothing.

And if those some were a small minority, or shrinking in influence, that is one issue. But when they are on the rise, it is an entirely different issue. The regression that the Muslim world has experienced in the last few decades is astounding.

[Olerand]

Execution on the spot.

Oh no, they'd torture me first cuz I'm not a woman yet. Maybe a Crucifixion.
I'm saying in the west who'd applaud it.

How dare you, a Westerner, go to these people's country and behave as you do? What a despicable example of 21st century imperialism in action.

[Kelinfort]

I don't see an issue if it's an individual choice. Unfortunately, there are some who despite clear alternatives, will prefer fundamentalism and wearing restrictive clothing.

And if those some were a small minority, or shrinking in influence, that is one issue. But when they are on the rise, it is an entirely different issue. The regression that the Muslim world has experienced in the last few decades is astounding.

It is, however, they are not the west and banning this outfit won't combat their power. The only way for them to change is for them to run out of their precious oil. Leadership will have to take stock quickly and change the situation drastically if they want to survive.

[Nacesa Plana]

These Christian girls should obviously have the right to wear short shorts.
Short shorts are mainstream in Europe and part of our culture.

A burkini isn't. Wearing one has a consequence and means: "I don't belong to your culture". And that's fine, but it doesn't give you the right to provoke. If people don't like some culture, just leave and find yourself a culture that's more comfortable to you.

Like I said as a Hells Angel you can't wear a Bandidos jacket. Nevertheless Bandidos jackets are not illegal according the law. But they are certainly not accepted by the subculture of the Hells Angels.

If you really want to wear a Bandidos jacket then it's more wise to leave the Hells Angels and join the Bandidos.

Like it or not, every society, every culture, every subculture has written and unwritten rules. Some could be stupid and weird, still you have to respect them. And if you don’t you have basically 2 options:

• Leave
• Undergo the consequences

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I know I’ve to wear a veil in public. Even if I don’t like it, I have to do.
It’s not on me to protest by not wearing one. It’s not on me to push my culture inside their culture.
But I have the option not to visit Saudi Arabia.

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

Yes, in France and many other European countries a burkini is triggering something.
We associated it with Muslim fundamentalism and these boys carried out several terrorist attacks.

France is not different as any other country or culture. It has social rules and laws you have to accept. And if you can't, don't visit France.
There’s no country in the world where you can do whatever you want or like in the public sphere.

Why should France be an exception?

[Olerand]

And if those some were a small minority, or shrinking in influence, that is one issue. But when they are on the rise, it is an entirely different issue. The regression that the Muslim world has experienced in the last few decades is astounding.

It is, however, they are not the west and banning this outfit won't combat their power. The only way for them to change is for them to run out of their precious oil. Leadership will have to take stock quickly and change the situation drastically if they want to survive.

The Muslim communities of the West are not detached from the events and waves of the Muslim world. Honestly, just look at the opinion polls, the studies, the news reports. In some places, they are being radicalized even faster. The AKP has more support amongst Turks in Germany than in Turkey, Ennahda has more support amongst Tunisians in France than in Tunisia. And those are the two best countries right now, other than Lebanon.

And the petromonarchies, while they are the originators of this crisis, have seen it move largely out of their hands. Their success has been amazing. Their demise won't end it.

[Kelinfort]

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

France is not different as any other country or culture. It has social rules and laws you have to accept. And if you can't, don't visit France.

Like Turkey. Or Palestine. Or Saudi Arabia.

We shouldn't use their actions as a pretext.

[Olerand]

France is not different as any other country or culture. It has social rules and laws you have to accept. And if you can't, don't visit France.

Like Turkey. Or Palestine. Or Saudi Arabia.

We shouldn't use their actions as a pretext.

Comparing France's actions to those nations is... erroneous at best. At our worst, we are still better than them, even Turkey now.

[Nacesa Plana]

Mostly it are fundamentalist Muslim men pushing the burkini.

Why are they not wearing one by themselves?
Their half-naked bodies could increase my lust too. They should protect themselves against sex hungry women! lol

But, it's also women who want to wear it pushing for it

In the 90ties there was in Paris a street protest of young Muslim women against the veil.

One week later veil wearing Muslim women protested in the same streets. They walked in front, an army of bearded Muslim men was behind. lol

[Ifreann]

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

Yes, in France and many other European countries a burkini is triggering something.
We associated it with Muslim fundamentalism and these boys carried out several terrorist attacks.

France is not different as any other country or culture. It has social rules and laws you have to accept. And if you can't, don't visit France.
There’s no country in the world where you can do whatever you want or like in the public sphere.

Why should France be an exception?

"France should have this stupid law because they hate Muslims, and besides, other countries have stupid laws too"

[Liriena]

I believe the middle ground lies in making the case for gender equality without framing it as an issue of superior and inferior cultural values, but rather encouraging a more critical mindset and leaving in the hands of the women in question the power to make the deeper changes happen on their terms, rather than those of an external entity.

How do you encourage a critical mindset? We do not control the conversation in the home, at the mosque, amongst friends at the stairs of your building, or anywhere outside of the school and media. Both present the case for gender equality as it is made for non-Muslim French society, regardless of cultural values. But the message is entirely different at home, in the personal places of a Muslim woman's life. How do we shape the conversation there? Especially as the countries of birth of these women's parents, which the families remain attached to, and whose mosques are probably funded and manned by, continue to slide into ever more regressive attitudes?

I have no definitive answers there.

[Internationalist Bastard]

But, it's also women who want to wear it pushing for it

In the 90ties there was in Paris a street protest of young Muslim women against the veil.

One week later veil wearing Muslim women protested in the same streets. They walked in front, an army of bearded Muslim men was behind. lol

So? Not every single person falls into a broad category. You can be a strong, Muslim woman and wear a veil, either for religious or personal reasons. You can't point at a specific group and say "see, this is who we're talking about"

[Liriena]

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.

Yes, in France and many other European countries a burkini is triggering something.
We associated it with Muslim fundamentalism and these boys carried out several terrorist attacks.

France is not different as any other country or culture. It has social rules and laws you have to accept. And if you can't, don't visit France.
There’s no country in the world where you can do whatever you want or like in the public sphere.

Why should France be an exception?

Ideally, no country would prohibit women from wearing a harmless attire just because it offends you. France would not be an exception in that regard.

[Digital Planets]

Oh Europe, how you cannot make up your fucking minds. "We need to ban refugees from coming in! No, we need to allow refugees here!"

Now France is banning what is basically just pieces of cloth. Pieces. Of. Cloth.

France needs to grow the fuck up and stop tip-toeing around Islam, especially clothing. If you're gonna ban it, ban it already. I mean, Goddamn, this whole shit over destroying French mosques and banning articles of clothing is stupid. Go full circle for fuck's sake.