To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Galloism]

Education is a good start. Showing how great a modern western lifestyle is and pointing out many many Muslims practice their faith without dressing like a sack of potatoes is perfectly acceptable.

It also isn't misogynistic.

Do Western countries not already do this? And yet women still wear the burqas, the burkinis, the niqabs etc. Now what?

Free choice means sometimes some people make choices you don't agree with.

I think bow ties are stupid. I've never tried to ban them.

[Olerand]

Which we don't. Not a single secessionist party has a seat in any regional council. And not even any regionalist ones outside of Corsica.

By that logic, the US is just as unified as France, despite talking about secession all the damn time.

Again, a non-comparison. Who is talking of secession in France? What region, whose inhabitants? Who are our Southerners?

Do Western countries not already do this? And yet women still wear the burqas, the burkinis, the niqabs etc. Now what?

Free choice means sometimes some people make choices you don't agree with.

I think bow ties are stupid. I've never tried to ban them.

Once again, the ban is irrelevant, and will most likely be struck down by the courts. Now, if this worldview starts to propagate, and what was once a tiny minority is larger and larger, what then?

[Galloism]

By that logic, the US is just as unified as France, despite talking about secession all the damn time.

Again, a non-comparison. Who is talking of secession in France? What region, whose inhabitants? Who are our Southerners?

I believe I provided you a list.

Free choice means sometimes some people make choices you don't agree with.

I think bow ties are stupid. I've never tried to ban them.

Once again, the ban is irrelevant, and will most likely be struck down by the courts.

I somehow doubt that, unless it makes it to the ECHR and it gets struck there.

Now, if this worldview starts to propagate, and what was once a tiny minority is larger and larger, what then?

I think that's pretty fucking unlikely all things considered.

What should I do if bow ties become popular again?

[Nacesa Plana]

Do Western countries not already do this? And yet women still wear the burqas, the burkinis, the niqabs etc. Now what?

Free choice means sometimes some people make choices you don't agree with.

I think bow ties are stupid. I've never tried to ban them.

Until bow ties are associated with some terrorists, in such way people start to think when you're wearing one, you're a terrorist or a fan of that specific terrorist group.

It's more as just a piece of clothing. It's about the association and the emotional reactions it might cause.

But there’s more. Do burkini wearing women have the freedom not to wear one? Really?

I know several Muslim families. In some the young girls have no choice in wearing a simple veil or not. They are forced to wear one. Sometimes by violence, sometimes by peer pressure.

[Galloism]

Free choice means sometimes some people make choices you don't agree with.

I think bow ties are stupid. I've never tried to ban them.

Until bow ties are associated with some terrorists,

They're associated with something even more frightening and worse, honestly.

Pee Wee Herman.

But there’s more. Do burkini wearing women have the freedom not to wear one? Really?

I know several Muslim families. In some the young girls have no choice in wearing a simple veil or not. They are forced to wear one. Sometimes by violence, sometimes by peer pressure.

All we can do is make it a legal right. (Well - all you should do, anyway. CAN do is another question.)

Some Christian girls aren't allowed to wear short shorts. Should we require them to wear them?

[Liriena]

One can be critical of the underlying sexist notions behind an item of clothing without seeking to undermine a woman's right to choose what she wears.

Even when her choice is born out of that same sexist and misogynistic mentality?

Yes, because I'm not interested in being a mansplainer.

I am, again, not for the bans, but for criticizing the ideology behind them. How do you work with not "undermining" women's rights to choose with fighting against the sexism that made the burqini a thing in the first place?

For one, you avoid condescending to them. You avoid thinking to yourself that you understand them and their relationship with their faith and clothing better than they do. You avoid furthering the toxic notion that unilaterally and uncritically imposing Western values on them is a legitimate solution. And above all, you actually listen to them and trust them to take the reins of their own lives, rather than patronize them.

[Olerand]

Again, a non-comparison. Who is talking of secession in France? What region, whose inhabitants? Who are our Southerners?

I believe I provided you a list.

Once again, the ban is irrelevant, and will most likely be struck down by the courts.

I somehow doubt that, unless it makes it to the ECHR and it gets struck there.

Now, if this worldview starts to propagate, and what was once a tiny minority is larger and larger, what then?

I think that's pretty fucking unlikely all things considered.

What should I do if bow ties become popular again?

Of tiny groups. But the secession talk in the South is louder than whoever shows up at the... Uhm... None of these parties have meetings, but the talk is louder. Who in France is talking that loud?

No, it will. There is no relation between State secularism and the beach, and the argument of the atmosphere after the recent attacks cannot be accepted by the courts, the atmosphere not being a valid reason for banning things. The only one that might stand is Sisco's, because of the recent events, but that also depends on the investigation that is currently opened. The government has already ruled out a national ban.

Comparing Islamism to bow ties. I am sure the gays of the Muslim world will grasp that comparison with much joy.

[Lost Memories]

By the experience of the only time I went to mass in france, it wasn't deserted, just filled with old people, but yes, it was a sorry state. :/

A sorry state is a good state. And where was that? Most churches in France are quasi-abandoned. The Church is importing priests from Africa now because there aren't enough French priests too.

Cap-d'Ail, right next to Monaco.

[Galloism]

Comparing Islamism to bow ties. I am sure the gays of the Muslim world will grasp that comparison with much joy.

Look, the burqa is really stupid. I'll even admit that. I have no particular love for the burqa. I compared the burqa to bow ties. They're both stupid.

What I DO love is choice, and if your choice is hurting no one else, why should it be restricted? This is a core question I always ask myself with every piece of legislation.

[Olerand]

Even when her choice is born out of that same sexist and misogynistic mentality?

Yes, because I'm not interested in being a mansplainer.

I am, again, not for the bans, but for criticizing the ideology behind them. How do you work with not "undermining" women's rights to choose with fighting against the sexism that made the burqini a thing in the first place?

For one, you avoid condescending to them. You avoid thinking to yourself that you understand them and their relationship with their faith and clothing better than they do. You avoid furthering the toxic notion that unilaterally and uncritically imposing Western values on them is a legitimate solution. And above all, you actually listen to them and trust them to take the reins of their own lives, rather than patronize them.

I don't know what mansplaining is, and I believe I don't want to know. As to the argument.

I argue against the basis, the theological reasoning for the burkini, burqa, hijab etc. Irrespective of the women who wear them, I am against the theological reasoning for it. Its history and reasoning is intrinsically sexist and misogynistic, and why a woman might wear it (at best to please God, at worst to please family or "spite the West") is irrelevant. The institution itself is sexist, the practice, the beliefs, the ideas, the history, the origins, the thinkers behind it, the reasoning, its outlook on women and their guilt when a man lusts after them, all sexist.

We impose Western values, or French values, when contrary values face us. As a nation with specific values enshrined in our Constitution, we reserve the right to do so, as various other European countries do to various ideologies.

[Olerand]

A sorry state is a good state. And where was that? Most churches in France are quasi-abandoned. The Church is importing priests from Africa now because there aren't enough French priests too.

Cap-d'Ail, right next to Monaco.

Ah Provence, and even worse, the Alpes-Maritimes. Yes, churches there will have a lot of old people, true, it is the land of retirement, our much better Florida.

Comparing Islamism to bow ties. I am sure the gays of the Muslim world will grasp that comparison with much joy.

Look, the burqa is really stupid. I'll even admit that. I have no particular love for the burqa. I compared the burqa to bow ties. They're both stupid.

What I DO love is choice, and if your choice is hurting no one else, why should it be restricted? This is a core question I always ask myself with every piece of legislation.

And choice should be maintained, the bans should not be in place, except for the burqa ban, judged permissible even by the ECHR. The idea, the theological reasoning, the inherent guilt in women that gave birth to the burqa/burkini/hijab etc. should be fought tooth and nail, however.

[Gauthier]

Until bow ties are associated with some terrorists,

They're associated with something even more frightening and worse, honestly.

Pee Wee Herman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVKsd8z6scw

[Galloism]

Cap-d'Ail, right next to Monaco.

Ah Provence, and even worse, the Alpes-Maritimes. Yes, churches there will have a lot of old people, true, it is the land of retirement, our much better Florida.

Look, the burqa is really stupid. I'll even admit that. I have no particular love for the burqa. I compared the burqa to bow ties. They're both stupid.

What I DO love is choice, and if your choice is hurting no one else, why should it be restricted? This is a core question I always ask myself with every piece of legislation.

And choice should be maintained, the bans should not be in place, except for the burqa ban, judged permissible even by the ECHR.

Yeah, the ECHR was wrong. That happens sometimes.

The idea, the theological reasoning, the inherent guilt in women that gave birth to the burqa/burkini/hijab etc. should be fought tooth and nail, however.

Which is why we should have compulsory nudity. No one should be guilty about their bodies.

[Olerand]

Ah Provence, and even worse, the Alpes-Maritimes. Yes, churches there will have a lot of old people, true, it is the land of retirement, our much better Florida.


And choice should be maintained, the bans should not be in place, except for the burqa ban, judged permissible even by the ECHR.

Yeah, the ECHR was wrong. That happens sometimes.

The idea, the theological reasoning, the inherent guilt in women that gave birth to the burqa/burkini/hijab etc. should be fought tooth and nail, however.

Which is why we should have compulsory nudity. No one should be guilty about their bodies.

Or alternatively, it is right. Anyway.

Also unenforceable, except in public. And something we will never pass as it would destroy our fashion industry. We spent a lot of money on that.

[Liriena]

Yes, because I'm not interested in being a mansplainer.


For one, you avoid condescending to them. You avoid thinking to yourself that you understand them and their relationship with their faith and clothing better than they do. You avoid furthering the toxic notion that unilaterally and uncritically imposing Western values on them is a legitimate solution. And above all, you actually listen to them and trust them to take the reins of their own lives, rather than patronize them.

I don't know what mansplaining is, and I believe I don't want to know. As to the argument.

I argue against the basis, the theological reasoning for the burkini, burqa, hijab etc. Irrespective of the women who wear them, I am against the theological reasoning for it. Its history and reasoning is intrinsically sexist and misogynistic, and why a woman might wear it (at best to please God, at worst to please family or "spite the West") is irrelevant. The institution itself is sexist, the practice, the beliefs, the ideas, the history, the origins, the thinkers behind it, the reasoning, its outlook on women and their guilt when a man lusts after them, all sexist.

We impose Western values, or French values, when contrary values face us. As a nation with specific values enshrined in our Constitution, we reserve the right to do so, as various other European countries do to various ideologies.

Do you extend this idea to arguably misogynistic clothing from all faiths?

[Galloism]

Also unenforceable, except in public. And something we will never pass as it would destroy our fashion industry. We spent a lot of money on that.

I'm ok with it being only applicable in public.

That's the only place I would care anyway.

[Olerand]

I don't know what mansplaining is, and I believe I don't want to know. As to the argument.

I argue against the basis, the theological reasoning for the burkini, burqa, hijab etc. Irrespective of the women who wear them, I am against the theological reasoning for it. Its history and reasoning is intrinsically sexist and misogynistic, and why a woman might wear it (at best to please God, at worst to please family or "spite the West") is irrelevant. The institution itself is sexist, the practice, the beliefs, the ideas, the history, the origins, the thinkers behind it, the reasoning, its outlook on women and their guilt when a man lusts after them, all sexist.

We impose Western values, or French values, when contrary values face us. As a nation with specific values enshrined in our Constitution, we reserve the right to do so, as various other European countries do to various ideologies.

Do you extend this idea to arguably misogynistic clothing from all faiths?

Absolutely.

[Liriena]

Do you extend this idea to arguably misogynistic clothing from all faiths?

Absolutely.

Including Catholicism?

What about misogyny within the French national culture itself?

[Ifreann]

I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

Sadly, I understand it too, perfectly: I would call it "misogyny under the guise of Feminism" - those kind of people use the same words we use, but they mean something very different: they endorse the "choice" of women who are under an enormous pressure by their communities and called names if they don't wear such dresses ALWAYS (because that's the point: it's not a choice, because it's ALWAYS).
The same people who would call the cops for "abuse against animals" if I would dress my dog in the same way during the summer, under the sun: they would say that the dog is suffering.
And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

And your vision for protecting women from being forced to wear these garments is to ban the garment in question. Do you not see how that is fucking stupid? If some women are wearing burkinis because their husband or father or whoever is forcing them to, then he'll just force her to wear something else if you ban burkinis, or he'll force her to stay indoors. You won't have done anything to protect women from being forced to dress a certain way except limit the available options. Big fucking deal.

[Olerand]

Absolutely.

Including Catholicism?

What about misogyny within the French national culture itself?

Absolutely.

Fight it. I am a card-carrying member of the Socialist Party, which is a feminist party, the current government has a ministry for women's rights, we have passed laws against sexism, laws for gender quotas, entire campaigns against sexist behavior/beliefs, our educational system puts a special emphasis on the equality of men and women, we (the PS, other French governments, French society) can be accused of many things, but not of neglecting this fight in our society and culture.

[Uxupox]

We need to have more Burkinis. Please.

[Nacesa Plana]

Until bow ties are associated with some terrorists,

They're associated with something even more frightening and worse, honestly.

Pee Wee Herman.

But there’s more. Do burkini wearing women have the freedom not to wear one? Really?

I know several Muslim families. In some the young girls have no choice in wearing a simple veil or not. They are forced to wear one. Sometimes by violence, sometimes by peer pressure.

All we can do is make it a legal right. (Well - all you should do, anyway. CAN do is another question.)

Some Christian girls aren't allowed to wear short shorts. Should we require them to wear them?

These Christian girls should obviously have the right to wear short shorts.
Short shorts are mainstream in Europe and part of our culture.

A burkini isn't. Wearing one has a consequence and means: "I don't belong to your culture". And that's fine, but it doesn't give you the right to provoke. If people don't like some culture, just leave and find yourself a culture that's more comfortable to you.

Like I said as a Hells Angel you can't wear a Bandidos jacket. Nevertheless Bandidos jackets are not illegal according the law. But they are certainly not accepted by the subculture of the Hells Angels.

If you really want to wear a Bandidos jacket then it's more wise to leave the Hells Angels and join the Bandidos.

Like it or not, every society, every culture, every subculture has written and unwritten rules. Some could be stupid and weird, still you have to respect them. And if you don’t you have basically 2 options:

• Leave
• Undergo the consequences

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I know I’ve to wear a veil in public. Even if I don’t like it, I have to do.
It’s not on me to protest by not wearing one. It’s not on me to push my culture inside their culture.
But I have the option not to visit Saudi Arabia.

[Liriena]

Including Catholicism?

What about misogyny within the French national culture itself?

Absolutely.

Fight it. I am a card-carrying member of the Socialist Party, which is a feminist party, the current government has a ministry for women's rights, we have passed laws against sexism, laws for gender quotas, entire campaigns against sexist behavior/beliefs, our educational system puts a special emphasis on the equality of men and women, we (the PS, other French governments, French society) can be accused of many things, but not of neglecting this fight in our society and culture.

That's great, but I stand by my opposition to dealing with such an issue in a patronizing and unilateral fashion.

[Olerand]

Absolutely.

Fight it. I am a card-carrying member of the Socialist Party, which is a feminist party, the current government has a ministry for women's rights, we have passed laws against sexism, laws for gender quotas, entire campaigns against sexist behavior/beliefs, our educational system puts a special emphasis on the equality of men and women, we (the PS, other French governments, French society) can be accused of many things, but not of neglecting this fight in our society and culture.

That's great, but I stand by my opposition to dealing with such an issue in a patronizing and unilateral fashion.

What other fashion is there, other than unilateral rejection, of the idea that an uncovered woman walking down the street and who elicits lust in a man who sees her has sinned and will be divinely punished, which gives credence to the idea that uncovered women are ripe for sexual assault/harassment?

I genuinely want to know what middle ground there can be between an ideology that demands every summer that municipal pools be segregated for "decency" and a set of values that says men and women are equal?

[Liriena]

They're associated with something even more frightening and worse, honestly.

Pee Wee Herman.



All we can do is make it a legal right. (Well - all you should do, anyway. CAN do is another question.)

Some Christian girls aren't allowed to wear short shorts. Should we require them to wear them?

These Christian girls should obviously have the right to wear short shorts.
Short shorts are mainstream in Europe and part of our culture.

A burkini isn't. Wearing one has a consequence and means: "I don't belong to your culture". And that's fine, but it doesn't give you the right to provoke. If people don't like some culture, just leave and find yourself a culture that's more comfortable to you.

Like I said as a Hells Angel you can't wear a Bandidos jacket. Nevertheless Bandidos jackets are not illegal according the law. But they are certainly not accepted by the subculture of the Hells Angels.

If you really want to wear a Bandidos jacket then it's more wise to leave the Hells Angels and join the Bandidos.

Like it or not, every society, every culture, every subculture has written and unwritten rules. Some could be stupid and weird, still you have to respect them. And if you don’t you have basically 2 options:

• Leave
• Undergo the consequences

If I go to Saudi Arabia, I know I’ve to wear a veil in public. Even if I don’t like it, I have to do.
It’s not on me to protest by not wearing one. It’s not on me to push my culture inside their culture.
But I have the option not to visit Saudi Arabia.

Woah... "right to provoke"? Are you telling me French people are somehow triggered by burkinis or something? Geesh.

Also, I love how you are comparing France, a liberal democracy whose motto is all about liberty, equality and fraternity, to gangs and Saudi Arabia, one of the most politically oppressive and socially repressive nations on Earth.