To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Senkaku]

Meanwhile, random people in the middle will get fucked from both ends! Sounds like fun.

Who are those people? Women who wear the burkini? They're not in the middle. Most French Muslim women do not wear the burkini.

And here Chess was saying they were all forced to. How odd.

Not at all. Most Muslim women in the West don't wear a burkini. But the fundies might do it.

Tension-creating or not, I think it's just better to give them the choice to wear it. Their choice of beachwear is not hurting anyone.

IT'S DESTROYING FRANCE FROM WITHINNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!111!!!!

Removing their dress does not remove their beliefs. Honestly, it probably strengthens them. This only causes more tension between Muslims and non-Muslims. I dislike this.

Not at all. Most Muslim women in the West don't wear a burkini. But the fundies might do it.

"the fundies" <<< I can already tell you have respect for their faith. If it were Christian women who chose to wear longer or full-body swimsuits because of their faith, you'd be fine, maybe even admire them for their commitment to their faith, I'm sure. Possibly also with Jews (someone should really work on liberating Orthodox Jews, by the way).

I do not support them, and nor will the national courts.

>argues for bans
>"i don't support bans"

[Lost Memories]

Another cult. And again, it's amazing that we leave Catholicism alone. Almost as if... We fought this battle with Catholicism before... And won... Almost as if French churches are deserted today...

By the experience of the only time I went to mass in france, it wasn't deserted, just filled with old people, but yes, it was a sorry state. :/

[Nacesa Plana]

Europe recently suffered from fundamental Muslim terrorism. A birkini is associated with these fundies. At such the burkini has a high negative emotional association. Wearing one in Europe in public on a beach is just a provocation, possible resulting in clashes.

As terrible as the attacks in Europe have been, there's no equivalency between them and the Second World War, nor is there a symbolic equivalency between fucking burkinis and swastikas.

Both are considered as a provocation causing negative reactions. It's of course a bad thing to avoid violent clashes.

You still can wear your burkini or your Nazi uniform in the privacy of your own garden.

And if you really really want to wear a burkini in public, you can select multiple Muslim countries to express your fundamentalism.
Take care, they are also forbidden or social not acceptable in some Muslim countries.

[Galloism]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ope#France

Which of those actually matter? Which have political representation? Popular support? Armed power?

I did not say there were no separatist movements, something that is clearly incorrect, if in Corsica alone. I said we are not under threat of secession.

They're all cults except good ol' catholicism, aren't they. But that's secular. It's just catholicism is the only one that qualifies for being not a cult.



Catholicism is the largest religion in France, and prohbiits contraception as a religious tenet.



You know what, you're right, and given Catholicism attempts to oppress women by prohibiting them from using contraception, I say we require by force of law that all catholic women take contraception, or they can be fined. We want to be consistent about our theories behind our laws.



Assertion assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.

There is no point in arguing this anymore. You've provided no proof of how we favor Catholicism, you just insist that we do. Anyway.

It's just funny how France gets on a kick to go on some anti-religious crusade every once in a while but yet Catholicism seems to always be spared.

Yes, it is. However, a majority of French are irreligious. Catholics are the largest religion, and they are a minority. And it does! And that's bad! And our politicians have criticized it for that!

75% of the French are catholic.

We cannot require them too, but we should encourage them.

Why not? You can require them to wear clothes that are against their religious beliefs. Why can't you require them to take contraception that's against their religious beliefs?

Teach them about contraception, provide it to them at an affordable price, make it free for students and the needy... And oh wow, we do all of that.

If those measures are insufficient regarding the burqa, they are insufficient regarding contraception.

And the rate of usage of contraceptions in France clearly means that at least a sizable minority of Catholics use them (more like a majority), because the rates are larger than the irrelegious rate is too.

Of course they do - just like a sizable portion of muslim women do NOT wear the burqa, and you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but if there are even SOME women who don't use contraception for religious reasons, due to threat of hell, then all women should be forced to take contraception.

Let's be consistent.

[New Grestin]

And here Chess was saying they were all forced to. How odd.

No, that sounds about right for her.

[Galloism]

And here Chess was saying they were all forced to. How odd.

No, that sounds about right for her.

Women are basically children you know.

Hurray feminism?

[Setgavarius]

No, that sounds about right for her.

Women are basically children you know.

Hurray feminism?

by that logic feminism becomes an ouroboros that succeeds in eating itself.
Fuck.

[Senkaku]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ope#France

Which of those actually matter? Which have political representation? Popular support? Armed power?

I did not say there were no separatist movements, something that is clearly incorrect, if in Corsica alone. I said we are not under threat of secession.

I mean you yourself mentioned ETA. In any case, France may be more homogeneous regionally than Spain or Britain or Italy or Belgium, but that really has no bearing on any of this argument.

As terrible as the attacks in Europe have been, there's no equivalency between them and the Second World War, nor is there a symbolic equivalency between fucking burkinis and swastikas.

Both are considered as a provocation causing negative reactions.

Saying the n-word is a provocation with far more negative connotations than the goddamn burkini (which frankly, you're turning into something it isn't- it's not somehow a symbol of the terror attacks in Europe, the ISIS flag is not a burkini), and it's legal. Putting up political lawn signs can be a provocation causing negative reactions. Having the wrong color skin can be a provocation. Wearing a kippah can be a provocation. PDA, especially gay PDA, can be a provocation. On the wrong side of town, wearing the wrong color can be a provocation.

Your comparison of burkinis to swastikas is horseshit. The worst catastrophe in human history and the symbol of the regime largely responsible for causing it is entirely different from a full-body swimsuit that some rabid Islamophobes have latched onto as a "symbol" for the recent terror attacks in Europe or the "Islamization" of Europe.

[Felrik]

Women are basically children you know.

Hurray feminism?

by that logic feminism becomes an ouroboros that succeeds in eating itself.
Fuck.

Yeah........
A big Fuck.

[Community Values]

No, that sounds about right for her.

Women are basically children you know.

Hurray feminism?

God forbid they make a choice on their own to wear something. Heavens no. We need to protect them from oppression like that.

[New Grestin]

Women are basically children you know.

Hurray feminism?

I still keep this gem around after the last thread when she and I bumped heads.

Women cannot be sexist against men

Top fucking zozzle.

Back to topic, though.

Why is this really such an issue? It's literally just a onesie with a hood.

Who the fuck cares what people wear at the beach?

And why is there a picture of Borat?

I have so many questions and so few answers.

[Olerand]

Who are those people? Women who wear the burkini? They're not in the middle. Most French Muslim women do not wear the burkini.

And here Chess was saying they were all forced to. How odd.

Tension-creating or not, I think it's just better to give them the choice to wear it. Their choice of beachwear is not hurting anyone.

IT'S DESTROYING FRANCE FROM WITHINNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!111!!!!

Not at all. Most Muslim women in the West don't wear a burkini. But the fundies might do it.

"the fundies" <<< I can already tell you have respect for their faith. If it were Christian women who chose to wear longer or full-body swimsuits because of their faith, you'd be fine, maybe even admire them for their commitment to their faith, I'm sure. Possibly also with Jews (someone should really work on liberating Orthodox Jews, by the way).

I do not support them, and nor will the national courts.

>argues for bans
>"i don't support bans"

Her and I are not the same person. On this, we share the same idea, but I am sure we disagree on others. Sex workers and trans rights apparently.

When did I argue for a ban? I have stated numerous times throughout this thread that I am against the bans. I am for fighting the idea behind the burqinis. Are you sure you arguing with me? The real me, not a fiction of me you made up?

Another cult. And again, it's amazing that we leave Catholicism alone. Almost as if... We fought this battle with Catholicism before... And won... Almost as if French churches are deserted today...

By the experience of the only time I went to mass in france, it wasn't deserted, just filled with old people, but yes, it was a sorry state. :/

A sorry state is a good state. And where was that? Most churches in France are quasi-abandoned. The Church is importing priests from Africa now because there aren't enough French priests too.

Which of those actually matter? Which have political representation? Popular support? Armed power?

I did not say there were no separatist movements, something that is clearly incorrect, if in Corsica alone. I said we are not under threat of secession.


There is no point in arguing this anymore. You've provided no proof of how we favor Catholicism, you just insist that we do. Anyway.

It's just funny how France gets on a kick to go on some anti-religious crusade every once in a while but yet Catholicism seems to always be spared.

Yes, it is. However, a majority of French are irreligious. Catholics are the largest religion, and they are a minority. And it does! And that's bad! And our politicians have criticized it for that!

75% of the French are catholic.

We cannot require them too, but we should encourage them.

Why not? You can require them to wear clothes that are against their religious beliefs. Why can't you require them to take contraception that's against their religious beliefs?

Teach them about contraception, provide it to them at an affordable price, make it free for students and the needy... And oh wow, we do all of that.

If those measures are insufficient regarding the burqa, they are insufficient regarding contraception.

And the rate of usage of contraceptions in France clearly means that at least a sizable minority of Catholics use them (more like a majority), because the rates are larger than the irrelegious rate is too.

Of course they do - just like a sizable portion of muslim women do NOT wear the burqa, and you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but if there are even SOME women who don't use contraception for religious reasons, due to threat of hell, then all women should be forced to take contraception.

Let's be consistent.

Oh Lord. Again.... How is it spared? Have we not fought it in the past? Do we provide it with privileges? Is Catholicism rising in France today? Honestly, no point in arguing this, everyone knows Catholicism is neutered and dying in France, but you insist that we all left the Church because we secretly still love it. Anyway.

An absolute bullshit rate. I don't know what that number is. Like the CIA's website which lists 80% of French as Catholic and 0 as irreligious. Where are these numbers from? Check some polls done in France.

As for the rest of it, read my edit. We can't, just like we can't ban burqas on private property.

[Senkaku]

Oh Lord. Again.... How is it spared? Have we not fought it in the past?

"We murdered a bunch of priests and burned down some churches and stuff in the late 1700s, which makes it fine for us to be dicks to Muslims now"

[Olerand]

Which of those actually matter? Which have political representation? Popular support? Armed power?

I did not say there were no separatist movements, something that is clearly incorrect, if in Corsica alone. I said we are not under threat of secession.

I mean you yourself mentioned ETA. In any case, France may be more homogeneous regionally than Spain or Britain or Italy or Belgium, but that really has no bearing on any of this argument.

Both are considered as a provocation causing negative reactions.

Saying the n-word is a provocation with far more negative connotations than the goddamn burkini (which frankly, you're turning into something it isn't- it's not somehow a symbol of the terror attacks in Europe, the ISIS flag is not a burkini), and it's legal. Putting up political lawn signs can be a provocation causing negative reactions. Having the wrong color skin can be a provocation. Wearing a kippah can be a provocation. PDA, especially gay PDA, can be a provocation. On the wrong side of town, wearing the wrong color can be a provocation.

Your comparison of burkinis to swastikas is horseshit. The worst catastrophe in human history and the symbol of the regime largely responsible for causing it is entirely different from a full-body swimsuit that some rabid Islamophobes have latched onto as a "symbol" for the recent terror attacks in Europe or the "Islamization" of Europe.

This was brought about by a claim that we don't value unity in France because we have separatist movements in the Basque country and "Catalonia". That is incorrect.

[Liriena]

And thus will defend an item of clothing which is prescribed out of a sexist and misogynistic view of women and their relation to society.

One can be critical of the underlying sexist notions behind an item of clothing without seeking to undermine a woman's right to choose what she wears.

[Liriena]

Good thing I'm not a liberal. Also, I believe in people's inaliable right to wear whatever the hell they want. So long as the women wearing burkinis are wearing them because they genuinely, personally choose to, I'm okay with it.

Really? What are you, then? I doubt a conservative would have a puppy in a sunny field as their nation's flag.

Green socialist.

[Olerand]

Oh Lord. Again.... How is it spared? Have we not fought it in the past?

"We murdered a bunch of priests and burned down some churches and stuff in the late 1700s, which makes it fine for us to be dicks to Muslims now"

Look at the history of anti-clericalism in France, you might, just might, maybe, find a longer history than killing a few priests. Are you being disingenuous or do you genuinely not know?

Muslims are facing nothing in France today compared to what the State and the people did against the Church in the past.

[Galloism]

And thus will defend an item of clothing which is prescribed out of a sexist and misogynistic view of women and their relation to society.

One can be critical of the underlying sexist notions behind an item of clothing without seeking to undermine a woman's right to choose what she wears.

Nonsense. If you respect a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, you can force it on her in the name of women's liberation and in honor of women's rights.

What are you, some kind of fundie?

[Olerand]

And thus will defend an item of clothing which is prescribed out of a sexist and misogynistic view of women and their relation to society.

One can be critical of the underlying sexist notions behind an item of clothing without seeking to undermine a woman's right to choose what she wears.

Even when her choice is born out of that same sexist and misogynistic mentality? I am, again, not for the bans, but for criticizing the ideology behind them. How do you work with not "undermining" women's rights to choose with fighting against the sexism that made the burqini a thing in the first place?

[Nacesa Plana]

"the fundies" <<< I can already tell you have respect for their faith. If it were Christian women who chose to wear longer or full-body swimsuits because of their faith, you'd be fine, maybe even admire them for their commitment to their faith, I'm sure. Possibly also with Jews (someone should really work on liberating Orthodox Jews, by the way).

If fundamentalist Christians terrorised Europe, it would be unlikely the public or government would accept wearing clear symbols of their fundamentalism.

If fundamentalist Muslims never attacked Europe, wearing a burkini would have no emotional association.

It's also a matter of class, dignity and respect for the culture you're living in. Whatever culture or subculture you're visiting, usually you have to adopt and accept the social rules as they are.

If you are an Hells Angel, you can’t wear a Bandidos jacket in public.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Galloism]

I mean you yourself mentioned ETA. In any case, France may be more homogeneous regionally than Spain or Britain or Italy or Belgium, but that really has no bearing on any of this argument.


Saying the n-word is a provocation with far more negative connotations than the goddamn burkini (which frankly, you're turning into something it isn't- it's not somehow a symbol of the terror attacks in Europe, the ISIS flag is not a burkini), and it's legal. Putting up political lawn signs can be a provocation causing negative reactions. Having the wrong color skin can be a provocation. Wearing a kippah can be a provocation. PDA, especially gay PDA, can be a provocation. On the wrong side of town, wearing the wrong color can be a provocation.

Your comparison of burkinis to swastikas is horseshit. The worst catastrophe in human history and the symbol of the regime largely responsible for causing it is entirely different from a full-body swimsuit that some rabid Islamophobes have latched onto as a "symbol" for the recent terror attacks in Europe or the "Islamization" of Europe.

This was brought about by a claim that we don't value unity in France because we have separatist movements in the Basque country and "Catalonia". That is incorrect.

Actually, it was about your claim France alone doesn't face secessionist movements.

[Galloism]

One can be critical of the underlying sexist notions behind an item of clothing without seeking to undermine a woman's right to choose what she wears.

Even when her choice is born out of that same sexist and misogynistic mentality? I am, again, not for the bans, but for criticizing the ideology behind them. How do you work with not "undermining" women's rights to choose with fighting against the sexism that made the burqini a thing in the first place?

Education is a good start. Showing how great a modern western lifestyle is and pointing out many many Muslims practice their faith without dressing like a sack of potatoes is perfectly acceptable.

It also isn't misogynistic.

[Olerand]

This was brought about by a claim that we don't value unity in France because we have separatist movements in the Basque country and "Catalonia". That is incorrect.

Actually, it was about your claim France alone doesn't face secessionist movements.

Which we don't. Not a single secessionist party has a seat in any regional council. And not even any regionalist ones outside of Corsica.

[Olerand]

Even when her choice is born out of that same sexist and misogynistic mentality? I am, again, not for the bans, but for criticizing the ideology behind them. How do you work with not "undermining" women's rights to choose with fighting against the sexism that made the burqini a thing in the first place?

Education is a good start. Showing how great a modern western lifestyle is and pointing out many many Muslims practice their faith without dressing like a sack of potatoes is perfectly acceptable.

It also isn't misogynistic.

Do Western countries not already do this? And yet women still wear the burqas, the burkinis, the niqabs etc. Now what?

[Galloism]

Actually, it was about your claim France alone doesn't face secessionist movements.

Which we don't. Not a single secessionist party has a seat in any regional council. And not even any regionalist ones outside of Corsica.

By that logic, the US is just as unified as France, despite talking about secession all the damn time.